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Ellipsis-Ultima

Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

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4 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Funny thing is; The boost concept was only used interestingly once and that was World Adventure. It was a genuine and amazing first attempt to redefine/Refine Sonic and put him on a better pathway after Sonic Next Gen. Much like how Adventure and Sonic 1 created their own new attempt, this was much in the same. Now likes those games, they needed much improvement to see fit. They both started started off flawed in knowing what not to do and made the necessary choices on improvements for more natural gameplay(except for the Adventure gameplay as SA2 redefined again what was Sonic sadly).

The Boost formula, within it's first conception was quite natural and started very strong. It had many flaws on the first go but that was ok! The next game(if we go by the assumption of Sonic 1>2>3) should have not only been easier to produce but had progression right? I'd have to say no. Colors did a complete 180 by not only slowing the game down but destroying all of the potential in that the team did for SWA. Almost every level gimmick was reused and the physics were no longer had a sense of momentum to them and were instead floaty. Generations did much better on reviving the boost gameplay to what it once was but it still wasn't an improvement from World Adventure. By comparison, It's still worse. Physics once again, aren't the same nor better. Level design is more open and yet it borrows a little too much from Colors. 

 

Then comes Lost world creating it's own version of the boost(No improvements as you can just infinitely boost) and now...Forces. 9 years for this gameplay style and it's now gone from poor to good to mediocre to bad. 

I'm not really a "boost" fan so to speak as I am a fan of how World Adventure did it so well despite the issues. The game wasn't as linear or automated as one would say. While going through the stage regularly without using Sonic's physics, it might feel a little bland but this video here is one of the reasons why Sonic World Adventure is not only the best of the Boost but had great potential. 

 

I don't know, really. I thought the boost mechanic was interesting at first, but every time it came back, I started to like it less and less. Although it may look cool when people speedrun through those kind of games, for me, it's not really that enjoyable. Sonic simply moves too fast that having any actual platforming in 3D will be difficult. I feel like the concept relies on a lot of trial and error, not saying that every other game lacks this aspect, but it feels more prevalent in the boost games for me. Once I saw that boost was back in Forces, a lot of my interest simply went away.

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11 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Funny thing is; The boost concept was only used interestingly once and that was World Adventure.

Sonic Teams' signature skill is getting the best result at first attempt, then going downhill from there. To this day, I say the grinding was the most satisfying in Adventure 2, the first time they used it, then it became more and more simplified until we reached the point it acts as a conveyer belt: completely automated.

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8 minutes ago, Yuluga said:

it is rare that we do not know anything about Super Sonic or a secret ending ... so hard are the red rings?

Seems to be less about difficulty, more about how time consuming it is. 5 Red Rings, 1 Number Ring and 1 Moon Medal for each level. 30 Levels, plus bonus levels...people probably haven't had the physical time to manage it yet.

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5 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

Sonic Teams' signature skill is getting the best result at first attempt, then going downhill from there. To this day, I say the grinding was the most satisfying in Adventure 2, the first time they used it, then it became more and more simplified until we reached the point it acts as a conveyer belt: completely automated.

It got worse too. They plagued the levels with them. That was a bit of a flaw in Unleashed, They probably thought it was cool because folks loved SA2 but didn't implement mechanics to them. I forgive them for trying but later games never got it fixed. Still, rails honestly didn't need to be so apparent in SA2 or Unleashed. Even with the more complex mechanics of grinding, I felt they were a little much.

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21 minutes ago, Night on Balding Mountain said:

Sonic Team need to copying Nintendo's ideas.

You wanna redo Terminal Velocity and the runaway slot wheels from frozen factory zone 3 go ahead. But stop bastardizing their ideas.

Ummm..Pretty sure Mario has done his own fair share of copying of Sonic in the past. Nothing new...

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2 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

It got worse too. They plagued the levels with them. That was a bit of a flaw in Unleashed, They probably thought it was cool because folks loved SA2 but didn't implement mechanics to them. I forgive them for trying but later games never got it fixed. Still, rails honestly didn't need to be so apparent in SA2 or Unleashed. Even with the more complex mechanics of grinding, I felt they were a little much.

I dunno, I never felt SA2 went THAT overboard with the rails, tho with the space levels, it kinda is apparent. Maybe it doesn't bother me because it's still fun for me.

But then there's Generations' Green Hill Zone where the first grind rail is a 100% horizontal pair of rails...what is even the point of that?

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1 minute ago, Tarnish said:

I dunno, I never felt SA2 went THAT overboard with the rails, tho with the space levels, it kinda is apparent. Maybe it doesn't bother me because it's still fun for me.

But then there's Generations' Green Hill Zone where the first grind rail is a 100% horizontal pair of rails...what is even the point of that?

Like I said...Future games just didn't bother.

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6 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Everything.

For one, I'd actually show Eggman conquering the world. I'd show what his empire was like. Bright neon cities full of Eggman statues, Badniks patrolling every street corner, citizens in uniforms modeled after Eggman's outfit. Maybe, to really emphasize how all-powerful he is, a shiny gold crown embedded with the seven Chaos Emeralds atop Eggman's noggin and a regal golden scepter bearing the likeness of his own mustached face. The premise of "Eggman conquers the world" demands both gravity and personality, and Forces provided neither.

Next, I'd make Eggman's damn league of villains deliver on its promise and actually be a proper league of villains. They'd all be real, and all have actual motivations to work for him. Maybe he found ways to blackmail his former hench-minions like Chaos, Shadow, and Zavok into serving him. In Metal Sonic's case, he's already an Eggman robot anyway, so no need to do anything special there. Personally, I'd throw in Grand Battle Kuku and Witchcart too, just to bring back some old favorites.

Eggman would not want to destroy the world he already conquered either, which made no sense. He'd want to maintain control of the planet, not wreck the shit out of it and "build on its ashes." He wouldn't torture Sonic for months either; He'd think that he finally killed him off, and conquer the world in Sonic's absence. Sonic would actually survive, albeit barely, and spend an extended period of time recovering before hopping back into action. This way, Eggman could be just as surprised as everyone else when Sonic returns.

As for Infinite, if he must be here, I'd give him some actual personality. Let him have some banter with Eggman and his villainous coworkers. Give him an actual motivation and, oh yeah, maybe make him a real person rather than a cop-out illusion cooked up by the Ruby. 

Tails would be less whiny. He'd be sad and distraught at Sonic's apparent demise, but wouldn't be a quivering useless wreck. He'd press onward, shaken but still capable of functioning as a person - just like he did in SA2 after he thought Sonic had died on the ARK. 

These are just a few basic things I'd change if I had to work with the same premise.

All of this. Plus I’d show Eggman’s army successfully destroying all G.U.N. bases on earth. Not only would that give Rouge another solid reason for joining the resistance but it can also be a personal victory for Eggman considering that’s the organization that, you know, killed his cousin and grandfather.

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1 hour ago, Bobnik said:

I guess with all this negativity surrounded around this game, I think I'll post something that's actually pretty cool (for me at least). Note: this screenshot ain't mine, but I got it from the forum post from a person that got the game early.

hesa01pNQno.jpg

This makes me very happy, actually.

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4 minutes ago, Johnny Boy said:

All of this. Plus I’d show Eggman’s army successfully destroying all G.U.N. bases on earth. Not only would that give Rouge another solid reason for joining the resistance but it can also be a personal victory for Eggman considering that’s the organization that, you know, killed his cousin and grandfather.

That would be actually good plot for future game. Or part of.

What if G.U.N were villains for Eggman´s campaign and HexaEco for Sonic. That would mean SA2/Heroes elements reappearing.

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32 minutes ago, Bobnik said:

Apparently both Modern and Classic can drop rings on the PS4 version...

...huh.

Well that's weird. It should always be like this, but still weird. Maybe the "can't pick up rings" thing was added late. Very late.

33 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Pfffffft, this is the "SLW-doesn't-give-lives-for-collecting-100-rings" situation all over again

*sigh*

What's that

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2 minutes ago, Razule said:

Well that's weird. It should always be like this, but still weird. Maybe the "can't pick up rings" thing was added late. Very late.

What's that

On early release Sonic Lost World didn't give you extra lives when you collected 100 rings. You'd get nothing. They patched in the 1up system later.

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30 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Personally, I'd throw in Grand Battle Kuku and Witchcart too, just to bring back some old favorites.

Does anyone really consider these guys "old favourites"? They're from forgettable Game Gear titles and if they've been given any personality and connection to Eggman, it's through Archie Sonic. Nack would make far more sense as an old rival type character to Eggman from older days.

30 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Eggman would not want to destroy the world he already conquered either, which made no sense. He'd want to maintain control of the planet, not wreck the shit out of it and "build on its ashes."

Sonic Adventure - He tried to unleash a God of Destruction to destroy the world for him and when things went belly-up, he tried to destroy Station Square out of sheer spite and try to build Eggmanland on it's ashes.

Sonic Adventure 2 - When his plan to extort the planet into submitting to the Eggman Empire went belly-up, he was ready to deliver his promise on destroying the planet and rebuilding. That's why he was desperate to get his hands on the last chaos emerald despite the Eclipse Cannon still having more than enough destructive power.

Sonic Unleashed - Not only was he more than fine with possibly completely destroying the world by shooting into it and cracking it into pieces, but he deliberately unleashed Dark Gaia which he knew could possibly destroy the world in a vain attempt to take over.

While Eggman is a character who wants to conquer the world, it's absolutely in character for Eggman to be so spiteful to actively try to destroy parts of it to either rebuild completely in his image or weed out his enemies. 

30 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

He wouldn't torture Sonic for months either; He'd think that he finally killed him off, and conquer the world in Sonic's absence. Sonic would actually survive, albeit barely, and spend an extended period of time recovering before hopping back into action. This way, Eggman could be just as surprised as everyone else when Sonic returns.

Not really, Eggman's always struck me as a character similar to Dr. Wily who's own ego and hubris is what causes his downfall. He loves seeing his enemies' hope completely shatter before dying. It's one of his own faults, instead of putting an end to his enemies, Eggman's own ego never lets him do it, because he wants to see his enemies realise the full genius they're dealing with. Worlds Collide in Archie Sonic even toys with the idea with both Eggman and Wily beating the shit out of Mega Man and Sonic and instead of killing them right there and then, they imprison the two in Egg Pods so they're forced to watch as Eggman and Wily attain godhood. 

Like sure, if you want, in this story you could have Eggman overcome his own faults and instantly try to end Sonic, but I think it'd be far more interesting of a character dynamic if Eggman beat Sonic and imprisoned him while forcing him to watch as he completely ruins the world. Slowly trying to destroy Sonic's hope . Eggman would just be the type of evil villain to do that. After all that mocking Sonic did, after all those times Sonic stopped him at the eleventh hour, he'd want to bring the point home how screwed he was by forcing him to watch daily how his cockiness and arrogance was his own downfall. Forces seemed to be trying to go for that, but it ended up ultimately underdeveloped in the end.

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7 minutes ago, Razule said:

Well that's weird. It should always be like this, but still weird. Maybe the "can't pick up rings" thing was added late. Very late.

*can, cuz not being able to pick up rings was a thing since E3 demos

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