Sonic Forces Development Speculation (Spoilers)

[Stritix]

This feels like it warrants its own thread instead of cluttering the spoilers thread.

Sonic Forces is bizarrely lacking content with possibly the most automated and linear level design seen in a 3D Sonic game to date. Most of the game is 2D with 3D sections being fully automated with control taken out of the player's hands. Levels are short and usually last for 1-2 minutes at a time. Not to mention, it's being sold for £27.99 which is almost half the price of new AAA titles. Also, take a look at this:

What's going on? I'm baffled. There has either been some type of downsizing at Sonic Team or is there possibly another title in the works? The latter is purely speculation but I can't understand how Sonic Forces has turned out the way it has.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Stritix

[RedFox99]

Would this have affected the story in anyway?

[Detective Kaito]

This tweet has some explanation. I don't know what's wrong, but they need to get their shit together. I thought Morio Kishimoto is responsible for this cause he's the director, but I guess not? Oh well.

[Stritix]

Just now, Detective Kaito said:

This tweet has some explanation. I don't know what's wrong, but they need to get their shit together. I thought Morio Kishimoto is responsible for this cause he's the director, but I guess not? Oh well.

Whoops. That's the one I meant to embed. Where are the people behind Generations now?

[Gabz Girl]

Wow. To think that Sonic Forces has less level designers than Colours and SLW, which were known as so called budget titles. It certainly explains the dodgy level design that’s for sure. Not to mention they’re very new to all this, they really needed a better lead level designer (ahem, like the one for Sonic Generations!).

3 minutes ago, Stritix said:

Whoops. That's the one I meant to embed. Where are the people behind Generations now?

At the Mario & Sonic studios doing fuck all it seems. =/

[Multikaris]

I do honestly believe an early version of the game was tacked with hastily added edgy elements and redone levels. It is possible these tie into the upcoming project that they were doing before the Boom disaster, forged into a direct sequel for this plot (given all the buildup they’ve had, and how Mania is linked in as well)

[superman43]

Mania development started in 2015/2016. Iizuka probably had the information that the new project is messed up after the RoL failure and that´s why Mania was born. If it is the truth, then all hail Iizuka for greenlighting Mania. After Forces, I don´t believe the same thing would happen.

[Blue Wisp]

Hah. Three designers and two of them are new and one of them worked in Sonic Lost World and somehow got promoted to the lead level designer. 

Good job SEGA and Sonic Team. 

Doesn't matter how but you'll always find a way to fuck things up even if you had a working formula. 

Jesus Christ.

[Bobnik]

Man, it actually makes more sense on why level design has been lackluster for this game. It doesn't really excuse it, but I wouldn't say it's outright their fault, but moreso the fault of the direction the team took... Yeah, Kishimoto seriously needs to go IMO.

[Salamander]

The credits do suggest that Sonic Team seems to be haemorrhaging staff in some way; the fact that the game has more gameplay styles than level designers, and their better talent are completely absent, points to either another and better project already being in development... or an exodus of some kind.  And it has to be said that they did not present this game like a filler game; they wanted us to think they were throwing everything at this...

I think the game has to be in some way unfinished; I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of incomplete content buried in the files.  Based on - I'm not sure how spoilery we can be in this thread, so I'll tread lightly - the uncertain fate of Infinite, maybe the lack of dialogue during the final boss, I would not be surprised if there was more planned there which just didn't get finished.

I've said it before, but I would not be surprised if the zones were originally encountered in traditional order, all acts in a zone in sequence before moving onto the next, and that they were later cut up and spread around so that the game's plot would create an illusion of length and frequent change.

I'm actually starting to wonder, also, if the game might actually be two game concepts put together?  The returning zones and Classic Sonic, to a lesser extent the likelihood that the Custom Hero was once Boom Sonic, all scream Generations 2 - but Classic seems tacked-on to the plot for the sake of the tie-in to Mania and aside from Infinite creating phantoms of previous villains then there's nothing really Generationsy about the story.  So I wonder if at some point maybe two in-development games got crashed together.  Poor staffing might be a reason for this, or it might also in some ways be a cause, if other staff were then redirected onto a bigger project.

Also wow that insider information above honestly makes it sound like they were planning on actually killing off Sonic.  Or otherwise just replacing him with a customisable character effectively for good; basically making him a legacy character to the new protagonist.  Insane.  We all thought Boom was being presumptuous in trying to replace the Japanese canon, but it sounds like nobody wants to get rid of Sonic more than Sonic Team themselves.  How out-of-touch can they possibly be?

[CottonCandy]

This could've explain classic sonic being randomly shoehorned in the game. I really want to know how crazy these "ideas" were. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

Also going back to the level designers for a moment.

We shouldn't criticise these people for not having experience with this kind of game and for not having much recent Sonic experience, but the fact is someone with experience really should have been on this title for the level design too.

[TheOcelot]

Sounds a bit like Unleashed:

SOJ: "We're gonna include a slower gameplay style called werehog".

SOA: "That's not a good idea".

SOJ: "We're going to include it anyway, so tough!"

Same kind of idea with Forces (OC instead of Werehog) but this time SOJ has actually listened to SOE/SOA. Huh...

 

I think classic Sonic would have been pitched from the very beginning due to his, I guess...good reception in Generations. Perhaps they decided to tone-down the amount of times you play as the OC in favor of more classic Sonic stages. Mania (despite how much later in development it was) has had some kind of influence over classic Sonic in Forces (the drop-dash at the very least). 

 

Why has SOJ since Unleashed been so afraid to make a 3d Sonic game with the boost being the only gameplay style? It's baffling.

[Milo]

13 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Also going back to the level designers for a moment.

We shouldn't criticise these people for not having experience with this kind of game and for not having much recent Sonic experience, but the fact is someone with experience really should have been on this title for the level design too.

Technically, there were. The level designers (and the game planners too for that matter) are new staff. But they were all working under lead designers, and all of those leads (director/lead game designer, lead game planner, lead level designer) are key staffers responsible for designing/directing the Kishimoto-era of games (Storybook series/Colors/Lost World). 

[superman43]

1 hour ago, Mayor D said:

Well... they didn't say that Classic and Modern Sonic were not in the game... just that the focus was clearly on the Avatar and that they had a lot more plans for him and that he was going to play a much bigger role.

I don't believe that Classic wasn't going to be in the game when this was shown to SOE since it would be one HELL of a change to make.

So the interpretation I got was that they primarily scaled back what the Avatar was going to do and tried to make him less of a primary and more of a supporting/equal character.

Do you really think so ? Because I don´t. Classic wasn´t really that much of a change considering they already used 2D pieces for Avatar and Modern. And if Classic was planned from beginning, they would have to find a way in for him. I certainly see there an association between Classic inclusion to Forces and Iizuka´s "By the mania for the mania" as he is stated in both games, he could be the figure behind communication. That´s how Drop Dash got into Forces... it was Taxman´s idea and it feels cohesive in Forces... not as an added thing. And in Forces itself you can just literally throw Classic away. Aside from Tails.

[ChikaBoing]

Ever since Lost World, ST seems heavily downgraded. They share more staff with the Mario & Sonic Olympic guys (they also used to have more staff). Within Sega, I wonder what is going on. Alot of staff is unused. I bet on another game being in development. Mobile is also less likely, since they don't pump that much money into it anymore.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

17 minutes ago, ChikaBoing said:

Ever since Lost World, ST seems heavily downgraded. They share more staff with the Mario & Sonic Olympic guys (they also used to have more staff). Within Sega, I wonder what is going on. Alot of staff is unused. I bet on another game being in development. Mobile is also less likely, since they don't pump that much money into it anymore.

If it does turn out to be true that they're already developing another game in the background, that would go a LONG way towards restoring my faith in them. Because Forces does not seem like the work of the same studio that produced Generations. I have commented many times that that gameplay is fundamentally problematic, but I'll be damned if it wasn't still a passion project and still a very good experience overall. That game showed that they can deliver something good when they really try. "Great"  maybe not. But good for sure.

 

I'm having a hard time believing Forces alone is "it" after 4 years. I really want to believe in the alternative.

[Autosaver]

5 hours ago, Mayor D said:

Not completely.

It could have always been BoomSonic, but following on from the games reception it was changed and then expanded upon.

You know, there is a huge emphasis on those lassos the avatar uses to jump from one point to another. It really does reek of Sonic Boom's enerbeam gameplay.

[KHCast]

3 minutes ago, Autosaver said:

You know, there is a huge emphasis on those lassos the avatar uses to jump from one point to another. It really does reek of Sonic Boom's enerbeam gameplay.

There's also how the avatar is so freakishly tall next to Modern. That seems like a weird detail.

[theofficefan99]

5 hours ago, Saber Wisp said:

I mean a rumor way back then was that Sonic the main character of the game wasn't going to be playable until mid-game once you rescue him with the Avatar so I can believe stuff like that.

And I am absolutely not-shocked that a big part of Sonic Forces was SEGA of Japan's idea. This game just screams like it caters to the Japanese market. I've had that train of thought for a week by now. Hell, Classic Sonic was probably just added to appease the Western audience, probably the reason why it's shoe-horned as hell in this game. 

They handled this game extremely poorly. The Avatar was a mistake. 

What??? If anything, this game screams "trying to cater to Western market" with an edge-y story and an Avatar character. 

[Harkofthewaa]

Well considering the Avatar was seemingly meant to be the big star here, I'd say that Sonic Forces himself to be relevant against Sonic Teams will. Despite the fact that they're called Sonic Team, not Avatar Team. If they don't want to make any Sonic games, I say let them do something different for once and let someone else take a crack at making a 3D Sonic title.

[Mark1]

This has got me wondering more if I should buy this game.

Sega/ST have got no clue how to make a competent game now, Colours and Generations feel like blips to the quality of recent games. 

Think I’ll be happy with Mania for my Sonic fix this year.

[Maxtiis]

Judging from the suggestions and the given information we have, it seems that Sonic Team or someone at SOJ is heavily pushing to make Sonic appealing to the Japanese market.

If custom characters are what SOJ and Sonic Team think this series needs to appeal to their own country's demographic then perhaps the reception most expect this game to receive upon launch will make them realize that trying to make Sonic a gaming icon in Japan has long been a lost cause, and that they should consider listening to the suggestions from SOA and SOE since a game made to appeal to our sensibilities proved to be a huge success, even if it wasn't in their home country.

Ah what am I saying? With that weird antagonistic relationship between Sega of Japan and their Western offices, there's not a chance in Hell of that happening. Sad to say, but Mania was just lightning in a bottle. I just wish that lightning would strike twice.

[andrew2]

Here is a possibility that some people are ignoring:

Some of the Forces team were so ashamed by their work that they refused to be credited.

Well... probably not... still, wouldn't look too good on the CV.

[Linkabel]

8 hours ago, TheOcelot said:

Sounds a bit like Unleashed:

SOJ: "We're gonna include a slower gameplay style called werehog".

SOA: "That's not a good idea".

SOJ: "We're going to include it anyway, so tough!"

It's kind of funny, because somewhere out there there's an interview with Yoshihisa Hashimoto where he mentions that someone high up in SoJ (forgot who he was) told him to reconsider putting the Werehog in Unleashed. The reason was because the other guy knew it was going to get a bad reception, but Hashimoto still decided to go with it.