Sonic Forces Development Speculation (Spoilers)

[Bobnik]

22 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Actually, HHE2 was worked on for 2 years, a small team worked on it for one year and full scale team for the final year(reading from the source of the twitter).

https://mobile.twitter.com/ClydeMandelin/status/930294334007545856?s=17

"I don't know the first thing about Sonic or this new game but the article says the project began 4 years ago, focused mostly on tech + R&D at first, then a small team took the reins a year later, and then the heavy-duty work got underway last year"

Soooo yeah, unless they were working on the engine at the same time, the game has been worked on for 3 years.

[Meta77]

Development does not mean full production that literally can be just engine test. Ideas. What stages

 music wanted to ise. At best this game was put into gear with a little year left

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

3 minutes ago, Bobnik said:

Soooo yeah, unless they were working on the engine at the same time, the game has been worked on for 3 years.

Almost was about to spread the misinformation...

Andrea is definitely trust worthy of information so. Appreciate the correction.

[Kuzu]

23 minutes ago, speedfreak said:

I think they just aren't very good. It's still a job they're getting paid to do. 

You'd be surprised how difficult it is to do your job well under shitty work conditions.

[Meta77]

13 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You'd be surprised how difficult it is to do your job well under shitty work conditions.

I wonder do people realize how much it actually takes to produce a game. And not just a indie game but a full scale game with cutscenes music vocals. It's more than just a let's ship it. Regardless if some working were new they give up hours of thier lifes trying to make games while...well I'll stop there for now

 

AAlso what's yuji doing these days

[Lord-Dreamerz]

I'm guessing about a year & half was just spent on ideas/prototyping for the game. Yeah I could easily see only roughly 1 and half years being used on the actual game considering the results we got including but not limited to all the reused ideas/assets in the game. They should had ignored trying to get this game completed close to Sonic's anniversary, especially as they already missed it... another year of work on the game would had helped I'd imagine even if some of the base ideas were flawed from the start.

Sonic Team needs to stop doing a anniversary title every 5 years and change it to every 10... It starts to feel like every other Sonic title is a anniversary game as it has been.

[Spooky Mulder]

It’s also possible that what began as Sonic Wars is vastly different from the final product. Prototypes could have included different gameplay styles that got shelved, perhaps even Lost World style gameplay was tested at one point.

Luminous Forest does have some very Lost Worldy level design in parts, especially that boss battle against Infinite.

[Slashy]

Maybe Sonic Team was being kicked around by executives that had no faith in their creative decisions or Sonic in general.

• Okay, that was a fun time with Lost World, let's try and build on that for a sequel!
• Okay management called, they said that it is too risky to go back to that gameplay since it was not well received. They want an anniversary title with all three of the Sonic iterations over the years.
• Management called again, Boom flopped, they really don't think we should be making a game focused on Sonic now. They said OCs are the hip rad thing and want us to focus on that.
• Management called AGAIN, turns out that the other branches HATED the idea of an OC focused game. They want us to keep the work we started on this game while morphing it back into a Generations successor.

[Dr. Detective]

I don't know what's going on over there. They're in need of some new brains from Oz or something. 

Some executive short-circuited in confusion wondering why Forces wasn't getting the same reception as Mania. "We put Classic Sonic in the game. Why are they so mad at us?"

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

7 hours ago, Meta77 said:

AAlso what's yuji doing these days

 Hopefully staying away from the Sonic franchise after the mess he ignited. 

[Milo]

On 11/15/2017 at 11:47 AM, Spooky Mulder said:

It’s also possible that what began as Sonic Wars is vastly different from the final product. Prototypes could have included different gameplay styles that got shelved, perhaps even Lost World style gameplay was tested at one point.

Luminous Forest does have some very Lost Worldy level design in parts, especially that boss battle against Infinite.

People who have played the game (and I think reports from some people who actually looked into the game's code itself, though I can't find any source for the latter) have said engine is reused from Lost World. It's not really hard to believe, given the Luminous Forest setpieces (the water slides being sand slides from Sky Road Zone 4, the Sonic Vs. Infinite boss battle using Lost World's tube planetoid design), the final boss (recycled from Lost World, which was itself repurposed from Colors), the automation elements (dash panels, invisible automatic springs), and just how jarringly different modern Sonic's controls/physics are compared to past Boost games.

Really makes one wonder what exactly the dev team was doing with during the pre-production/early development stage that warranted more time devoted to it compared to building the actual game itself. Aside from the re-purposed Lost World engine, classic Sonic and modern Sonic don't really have any refinement or expansion to their existing playstyles, and a significant bulk of the game is built upon recycled material (zones/identities from past games, level mechanics, level/game assets, and a significant lack of variety concerning enemies and boss fights). So it's not like they were really working on building original or uncharted material as it is...outside of the Custom Hero portion of the game, of course. (And even so, the Avatar playstyle already uses Boost Sonic's gameplay as a template --including using the grappling hook as a Homing Attack substitute-- and the Wispons weapons are adapted from existing Wisp powerups, so the dev team didn't have to completely create the Avatar gameplay from scratch either.)

[Maxtiis]

12 hours ago, Joy said:

As much as I don't want to sound like I'm doing the usual "oh next time will be better" routine, there is one thing that's making me hold off on thinking just how much of a shake up Sonic Team needs, and it's the news from last year about how SOA was being made the 'hub" for Sonic moving forward (not having been done since SA2).

https://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/20857-confirmed-iizuka-is-at-sega-of-america-rumour-overseeing-multiple-sonic-gamessoa-to-be-sonic-hub/

This isn't the classic "last chance for Sonic" scenario but right now it probably IS the biggest opportunity for concerns from fans and SOA to finally get through to the development team. Forces as we know it now was likely too far along for this move to mean anything but, unless there is already another game they were making alongside Forces, the next game is prime for an overhaul if they take the opportunity.

At the very least, if there isn't going to be any staff changes and they're absolutely sticking with the boost formula, they need to get EVERYBODY in a room and establish what the benchmark for level design is. I appreciate there being only a few designers with no Sonic experience for Forces but there's really no excuse for such inconsistency between games.

I almost forgot about Sega of America becoming the hub for newer Sonic games. While this isn't a guarantee by any means, perhaps this will make the likelihood for new games by the Mania team increase. At least it would make communication a much simpler process.

We've been discussing the possibility of Sega restructuring Sonic Team depending on the outcome of Forces, and you got me thinking that whatever change may occur would be dissolving the multiple teams approach to development they've had since Unleashed, and leaving just one Sonic Team. If they did then their games would probably be much more consistent in their design, though they should also consider getting a new supervisor to replace Iizuka.

I don't wish ill towards they guy, but he's had so many chances to lead the development of a potentially superb Sonic game and other than Generations (to me) he's failed. Besides having experience (for what that's worth), and probably the respect of upper management, I see no reason to keep him in the position he's in. If he wants to lead development on other Sega properties go ahead. Just keep him away from Sonic for a while.

[ShadowSJG]

So was it made in only one year then?

[Stritix]

Character animations are often frozen as if they only have one frame. It's quite unusual. For example: the duo drift and falling animations. There's a few more. Can't tell if it's laziness or a deliberate style choice.

[jgcatindig]

On 10/30/2017 at 11:52 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

Dimps has been getting worse too though.

The Advances and Rush were competent, if flawed, games.

Then they did garbage like Unleashed Wii, Sonic 4, and the portable version of Generations and Lost World. I feel like Dimps has been undergoing a similar worsening of quality to Sonic Team themselves, so they can't really be relied upon anymore.

  Recently, there had been vids of fan-games that are as good if not better than the official games.  Maybe we should give them a try? 

Like this for example:

 

Another sample from the same guy. 

[Indigo Rush]

Oh for crying out loud.

Replicating a physics engine isn't anywhere near enough to warrant the freedom to create a full game. You also need level designers, modellers, writers, directors and a host of other necessary roles that not a single one of these "fangames" offer competently. It's not even a game, it's little more than a tech demo. 

Controls and physics are only one component of a game. I'm tired of the call to have any Joe Blow with Unity and a YouTube channel take the reins over the next Sonic game. 

The only reason Mania worked was because it was a team of people with different skillsets and many of which had actual professional experience prior to Mania's conception. 

At best, any one of these guys could be hired on as another programmer or the like.

[Blue Blood]

And even that is a real push. Designing a game that is enjoyable and functional is a skill well beyond programming an engine. 

[Milo]

4 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

The only reason Mania worked was because it was a team of people with different skillsets and many of which had actual professional experience prior to Mania's conception. 

I understand the general point you're making here (and largely agree with it); however I just wanna to nitpick this bit. Having people with different talents and prior professional experience can be said for why any game worked (or games that were supposed to work in theory but failed in practice). There's several factors --major and miniscule-- that allowed Mania to turn out as good as it did that go beyond this one point.

I will say this though in support of your argument--having an proper development team with the qualifications you mentioned does make them more capable of actually putting together something that goes further than one playable zone--which were the fates of some of the fangaming scene's most prolific fan projects, such as Sonic Fan Remix, Sonic XG, and Sonic Nexus (though in regards to that last one, the dev team behind it --Taxman/Whitehead, Hunter Bridges, and Slingerland-- ultimately did go on to program/design Mania together). There are of course (fan)games that are made outside of those qualifications, but I have a good feeling they exist as exceptions rather than apply as the general rule.

[DabigRG]

On 11/15/2017 at 12:58 PM, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Sonic Team needs to stop doing a anniversary title every 5 years and change it to every 10... It starts to feel like every other Sonic title is a anniversary game as it has been.

Yeah, that'd be the best approach.

They already missed the deadline and while "Generations 2" is something that has been somewhat looked down on, it clearly needed much more time and/or creativity for a worthwhile product to be celebratory.

On 11/15/2017 at 8:35 PM, Jovahexeon Pirate Ridley said:

 Hopefully staying away from the Sonic franchise after the mess he ignited. 

What mess?

[Plasme]

I think it's important not to lose sight on how skilled these guys are though. Especially the guys behind Hero and the Sonic Infinity engine. Yes, an engine isn't enough to make a compelling game, but it's very impressive. Everyone needs to start somewhere, as did Christian Whitehead. He didn't really make fan games, he made engines.

I just think this can get lost in the understandable backlash against 'I want so and so to direct the next Sonic game'. Sonic Infinity in particular is very impressive and improves on Sonic Team's Boost engines in minor, but interesting, tangible ways. It isn't made by 'Joe Blow', it's made by a very talented programmer. It's a good first step to a game programmer career and should be recognised as such.

[Marco9966]

On 4/9/2018 at 2:38 PM, Indigo Rush said:

Oh for crying out loud.

Replicating a physics engine isn't anywhere near enough to warrant the freedom to create a full game. You also need level designers, modellers, writers, directors and a host of other necessary roles that not a single one of these "fangames" offer competently. It's not even a game, it's little more than a tech demo.  

I DON'T CARE! Just take Hero's physics  and keep the level Sonic Team level designers, worry about one thing at a time, don't talk to me about writers and level designers just yet.

The most important thing in Sonic is physics, but in the modern games it's worthless crap. So anything is better than what Sonic Team does. And Hero engine is better by default.

[Tracker_TD]

40 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

I DON'T CARE! Just take Hero's physics  and keep the level Sonic Team level designers, worry about one thing at a time, don't talk to me about writers and level designers just yet.

The most important thing in Sonic is physics, but in the modern games it's worthless crap. So anything is better than what Sonic Team does. And Hero engine is better by default.

No, level design is absolutely as important as the physics. Hero's engine would mean bugger all in Forces-style level design where it isn't utilised. Likewise Mania's fantastic physics would mean very little were its stages designed like Knuckles Chaotix. 

[Marco9966]

7 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

No, level design is absolutely as important as the physics. Hero's engine would mean bugger all in Forces-style level design where it isn't utilised. Likewise Mania's fantastic physics would mean very little were its stages designed like Knuckles Chaotix. 

Ok, but my point is we need to consider how important the physics are, we can't say "oh fuck this engine, where is the level design and the music etc.. it's not worth our attention let's have Sonic Team keep doing horseshit" instead of encouraging this engine one step at a time

We got the best Sonic physics ever with Hero's engine, even better than Sonic Adventure 1 dare I say. Just have him work at with Sonic Team, and they can collaborate to do the levels appropriate for these physics.

Again, one guy can't do an entire game with physics, levels, music, story... We got THE best Sonic physics right here, we CANNOT ignore it, it's what Sonic Team was supposed to do 10 years ago instead of the boost garbage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hidys3BWu3Y

[Tracker_TD]

36 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Ok, but my point is we need to consider how important the physics are, we can't say "oh fuck this engine, where is the level design and the music etc.. it's not worth our attention let's have Sonic Team keep doing horseshit" instead of encouraging this engine one step at a time

We got the best Sonic physics ever with Hero's engine, even better than Sonic Adventure 1 dare I say. Just have him work at with Sonic Team, and they can collaborate to do the levels appropriate for these physics.

Again, one guy can't do an entire game with physics, levels, music, story... We got THE best Sonic physics right here, we CANNOT ignore it, it's what Sonic Team was supposed to do 10 years ago instead of the boost garbage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hidys3BWu3Y

But can they do the appropriate levels for these physics? That's the important question.

(They probably can't)

Given Hero himself doesn't seem particularly interested in even finishing the engine, that's already not exactly the best foot to start on. I don't expect a full game, but I expect more than just a test environment and very few of these fan engines have done that, Hero's included. 

[Marco9966]

3 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

But can they do the appropriate levels for these physics? That's the important question.

(They probably can't)

Given Hero himself doesn't seem particularly interested in even finishing the engine, that's already not exactly the best foot to start on. I don't expect a full game, but I expect more than just a test environment and very few of these fan engines have done that, Hero's included. 

Why can't they? You just state things as if they are facts but it's not the case!