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Miragnarok

A “Mania” for the Adventure Series?

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What do you think about the prospect of a “Sonic Mania”-type game, but using the Adventure era levels, gameplay, and tone? Perhaps developed by someone like OzCrash? The Adventure era gives us over 70 levels and over 20 potential characters spread over fifteen games (including Storybook and Handheld games), so there is a ton of material, not even going into conceiving original levels, or even possibly using Classic and Modern levels. With the question for hub world’s, I think the game’s hubs should be mostly new to fit the story, but regardless, include familiar places for the sake of continuity. 

 

Another thing: maybe we should also separate Adventure Sonic’s world from Modern’s from here on out, just like with classic. Maybe the human/animal world divide can finally be used well? This would also explain the gradual loss of continuity. And speaking of divide, does anyone think Infinite should appear and be resolved? Then he’d have been in all three worlds.

 

For the cast, I think a wide variety should be represented and given significant roles. Forces was alright about this, but didn’t really do enough, considering they only directly fought in the climax. Hero and Dark story IMO should come back. Maybe multiple choices per story and stage type? 

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HA, we wish...

Ozcrash developing it? Hell to the no, dude is an asshole and World plays horribly.

Now, I really do love and support the idea of an Adventure Mania.

The important thing to make something like this a reality would as twice as much as Mania ever, you'll need a very skilled, dedicated, and visioned team to make it truly work and I'd absolutely be delighted if the Utopia and Islands ever got involved in the making.

Not sure what Engine what would be used but it's gotta look beautiful 

I don't know about what sort of content would be in it regarding story and such but that's up to the team.

For playable characters? Main four are a given but rest of the cast is possible if one is lucky.

I dunno man, 3D games are a whole another story, they would require twice as much work and effort to even look like a real game and not some cheap looking animation project.

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42 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Sonic's already down and now you want to bury him?

 

Better than leaving him to rot, so yes. 

 

But one thing I think could work very very well is to repair the physics to be much better than they were in the past and especially now. Plus layouts where they can actually be used well, unlike Mario Oddysey.

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I think my main problem with this is that revisits feel really cheap and unoriginal in spite of whatever work the team does to bring the material up to modern standards. Mania's a great game mechanically speaking, but it never really feels particularly focused because of this, and there were even points in Generations where it felt more like nostalgia for nostaliga's sake. Not to mention, how would you even justify this plot-wise? You can't really just say "lol dimensions broke" again, and being as plot heavy as it is an adventure style game would find that cliche focused under much heavier scrutiny than Mania ever did.

All things considered I'd really rather just make an Adventure game and try to distance it from the prior baggage it's had. What it really needs more than anything else is a fresh start.

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On 10/29/2017 at 5:24 PM, superman43 said:

Well, which stages do you think would make a proper mix ? Plus which games should it contain levels from ? SA1, SA2 and Heroes ?

Not just those, but Shadow, 06, and the Storybook and handheld games. And for the mix, I say about 1 Level per game per character. Some games might get more or less than that. So around twenty of each type, divided between sides. And also a set of six multiplayer levels per type, three default and three unlockable. 

 

Some levels that  are needed to be in:

* Emerald Coast and/or Wave Ocean. Emerald Coast may be more familiar but Wave Ocean is grander. Via asset recycling, we could do an SA2/Forces deal and make two stages out of several general assets plus other specific ones. 

* City Escape. This level is ICONIC. It must be in, not only on its own merits or nostalgia, but also to open the game and base more levels on it. The truck should of course feature.

* The Highway Trio (Speed, Radical, and Lethal). If only one gets in (betting on Speed), we would be able to blend each together, and feature a connection between each. Of course the hero/dark split would apply, and don’t you want to see Eggman terrorize the latter two and the former be besieged by an alien force. Plus the thought of Route 99 as a multiplayer stage! 

* Lost World. Due to its impact on Adventure’s Story. I also think some SLW references (if in a mostly negative light) would be nice, especially with the parkour sections. Hydrocity elements as well. It would be great to have proper 3D aquatic levels.

* Seaside Hill and/or Ocean Palace. Like the above, but also to fill a GHZ quota and to celebrate the iconic status of the stage. The two could also be complimentary levels.

* Kingdom Valley. For recognition of 06’s iconic level. Let’s toss in Levitated Ruin elements as well. 

* Green Forest and/or White Jungle. Were major in SA2’s plot. I also quite like the gimmicks and visuals here. Tropical Jungle, Leaf Storm, Leaf Forest, Sunset Hill, Iron Jungle, Lost Jungle, Frog Forest, Dinosaur Jungle... they could all be homaged well here. Especially Iron Jungle, due to its own GUN ties, along with Prison Island of course, which means we could even have stuff from the likes of Prison Lane mixed in as a new twist. 

* Crazy Gadget. Because we really need to resolve the ARK problems. 

* Crisis City.

* Sand Oasis. By far the most interesting desert level of the era. 

* Sky Babylon. This level really has a charm to it, and it could tie into the Babylon Rogues. Maybe use stuff from Sky Rail and Sky Canyon? 

* Ice Cap. Just because it was snubbed from Mania. 

* Angel Island and/or Sky Canyon. Just to keep the Emeralds relevant.

* Pumpkin Hill. Who doesn’t love that theme? Maybe also toss in Sky Rail, Death Chamber, and Mystic Mansion elements?

* Sunset Hill. To fill the GHZ quota, I think this is the best method to do so. 

* As for Classic and Modern stages, I suggest Metallic Madness to resolve the Death Egg issue.

 

Story-wise, we could devote it to filling up old plot gaps like the Moon, while tying them into each other and the greater storyline at large. Let us explore some more mature themes, like the inevitability of death! 

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I'm personally against this idea. The SA-Series are in my opinion probably the most overrated games of the Sonic series.

I get it that a lot of people want a sequel to those games, but I have the feeling that this two games are mostly so beloved because of two things: Nostalgia, because for many SA2 or SA was their 3D game and presentation: Story, edgy characters, cool music and the Chao garden. No one really praises the shooting levels, the fishing levels, the treasure hunting levels, the Amy levels etc.

Everything (minus the Chao Graden)  that people  love about SA & SA2 you can also find in games like Sonic 06, or Unleashed, Shadow the Hedgehog, Forces and to some agree even in Sonic Boom: RoL. 

So no, I do not think that we should get a Mania version of the SA games. We should rather learn from SA and try to do evolve the formula of those gams into something new. Also in my opinion, the SA games didn't really aged well. They had a lot of flaws. 

   

 

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10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

There's a few reasons why a "Sonic Adventure Mania" probably wouldn't be a great idea, but I think the biggest one is that there isn't a rock-solid and universally agreed upon gameplay style to use for it. SA didn't control like Heroes which didn't control like '06 which didn't control like SatSR, and none of them were as well designed and polished as the classic gameplay was by 3&K. So there's some big questions to face as to what the game should actually play like and how to raise it above those flawed games and up to modern standards. They'd need to essentially "solve" 3D Sonic and hope it could thread the needle of all the different expectations built up by all those disparate games.

You pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. Now if there were a Sonic advance mania, I think that would be phenomenal.

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3 minutes ago, Johnny Boy said:

You pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. Now if there were a Sonic advance mania, I think that would be phenomenal.

That one could even work as a great sequel to Mania itself. Mania 2: The Advancement Forward? 

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2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

There's a few reasons why a "Sonic Adventure Mania" probably wouldn't be a great idea, but I think the biggest one is that there isn't a rock-solid and universally agreed upon gameplay style to use for it. SA didn't control like Heroes which didn't control like '06 which didn't control like SatSR, and none of them were as well designed and polished as the classic gameplay was by 3&K. So there's some big questions to face as to what the game should actually play like and how to raise it above those flawed games and up to modern standards. They'd need to essentially "solve" 3D Sonic and hope it could thread the needle of all the different expectations built up by all those disparate games.

Not to mention that SA2 is a downgrade of SA1 in almost every gameplay aspect, it makes difficult to define what are we calling on.

Although if the anwser is specifically SA1's engine, I can see it working, maybe. Some very similar takes on the SA1(Sonic level) things are praised by the fans, such as Sonic Utopia demo and Green Hill Paradise, if you exclude the fixed boost after rolling fast mechanic.

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11 minutes ago, Korke said:

Not to mention that SA2 is a downgrade of SA1 in almost every gameplay aspect, it makes difficult to define what are we calling on.

Although if the anwser is specifically SA1's engine, I can see it working, maybe. Some very similar takes on the SA1(Sonic level) things are praised by the fans, such as Sonic Utopia demo and Green Hill Paradise, if you exclude the fixed boost after rolling fast mechanic.

YES! SA1 must be targeted specifically! The other games will be featured through additional characters, plus level and story ideas.

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I think it would certainly be possible for a Sonic Mania equivalent for Sonic Adventure to be made, but to ensure that it's just as good of a game as Mania was would probably require the input of the entire Sonic community for it to work. We'd all have to get together and formally decide which elements from Sonic Adventure 1/2 we would like to see return, which mechanics need a more modern polishing, which engine to use, and then we'd need a team to step forward to create a proof of concept....it's a lot of work, and because of it being a 3-D game this makes the process much more strenuous due to the inherent complexity that stems from the multitude of factors to account for in the extra dimension. Plus aside from a few of us there doesn't appear to be much interest in pursuing such a project as it would require a fairly sizable team, so as it stands it'd be dead on arrival if something like it were to start now.

Then there's the problem of "If we change too much, is it really a game made in the vein of Sonic Adventure, or has it become a new game entirely?" Personally I think we're better off trimming the fat, and only improving upon how Sonic played while also trying to implement other characters to the same style, but I have the feeling that it wouldn't gel well with some, as it may be considered too much of a departure from what made Sonic Adventure what it was, hence why I think this is something that requires the whole community to band together and discuss, which is itself difficult to organize.

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34 minutes ago, Korke said:

Not to mention that SA2 is a downgrade of SA1 in almost every gameplay aspect, it makes difficult to define what are we calling on.

Outside of the Somersault, I think SA2 Sonic controls much better(tighter) than he did in SA1(which extends to Knuckles), so it's not a total failure.

But of course, that's about it.

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47 minutes ago, Korke said:

Not to mention that SA2 is a downgrade of SA1 in almost every gameplay aspect, it makes difficult to define what are we calling on.

Although if the anwser is specifically SA1's engine, I can see it working, maybe. Some very similar takes on the SA1(Sonic level) things are praised by the fans, such as Sonic Utopia demo and Green Hill Paradise, if you exclude the fixed boost after rolling fast mechanic.

As a "true sequel" yes. Aside from controls, SA2 is not a sequel to SA1.

Though that is how I view SA2. Heck, I don't remember it being made by the same people who did it so I describe it as "Sonic Adventure Battle".

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Honestly I don't care what direction the modern series takes, as long as we get quality titles. If the adventure formula is revisited -great! If the boost formula is continued - great! If a new formula in the vein of Sonic Utopia is developed - great!

The key is that the resulting games are quality. This is what I want from SEGA. I don't care who develops it for what form it takes, as long as it's quality.

Sonic '06 had many things the fans wanted but wasn't quality. What you should want from a game is for it to be good, not for it to follow a specific idea. Because when SEGA eventually 'listens to what the fans want' and follows that idea (Sonic 4) it turns out rubbish because they really don't understand what you truly want because they are trying to realise your dream instead of their own dream. Similar thing with 2D sections in Colors and Avatar in Forces. All successful Sonic games developed by Sonic Team have been ideas from the dev team. If you want them to follow fans' ideas they will not really 'get it' and screw the whole thing up. With Mania this wasn't a problem because the team were actually pursuing their own ideas which happened to overlap with what the fans want. In this case a 'Mania' for the Adventure series would be nice, as long as it gets a AAA budget and Sonic Team stay clear of the whole thing - unless its something they really want to do and are putting a real effort behind designing and researching what made SA1 great (I don't care much for SA2 - kill me).

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I've suggested this before, but I honestly think a more realistic first step towards reviving something like the Adventure game style would be to push for a faithful remake of Adventure.  That doesn't require the developers to do something radically different and ambitious and get it right first time, but it does require them to seriously engage with the way the Adventure game engine functioned and how its levels were designed.

Further fragmenting the franchise into yet another world/timeline seems like a pretty terrible idea when neither the Classic/Modern nor human/animal splits were necessary , however.  The series is about a blue hedgehog who runs fast and goes on adventures; it doesn't need to be that complicated!  Other series manage multiple gameplay styles and settings within a single coherent universe just fine, and I really don't see why Sonic shouldn't be able to.  But I don't want that line of thought to derail the thread, however.

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Honestly I don't think an Adventure Mania would work, and this is coming from a person who's favourite Sonic game is Sonic Adventure. Mania worked because it was targeted towards re-establishing a widespread crowd of people as Sonic fans through the power of nostalgia. The Adventure games, while great, wouldn't be able to recapture that same reaction or excitement from many people who went for Mania. A fair amount of the general public would be able to recognise the pixellated backdrop of Green Hill Zone, I'd wager the fraction of those who'd recognise Windy Valley would be rather diminished.

However, It would make me ridiculously happy to see proper, faithful remasters of the Adventure games make their way onto the table at some point. Especially Sonic Adventure 1. I think this could also be a smart move on SonicTeam's part because it might get them reacquainted with the sort of movement, inertia and general physics of how 3D Sonic should work. I'll keep on dreaming for a Sonic Adventure 3, but until then I'd love Adventure remasters as a possible springboard for a spiritual successor.

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10 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Not just those, but Shadow, 06, and the Storybook and handheld games. And for the mix, I say about 1 Level per game per character. Some games might get more or less than that. So around twenty of each type, divided between sides. And also a set of six multiplayer levels per type, three default and three unlockable. 

 

Some levels that  are needed to be in:

* Emerald Coast and/or Wave Ocean. Emerald Coast may be more familiar but Wave Ocean is grander. Via asset recycling, we could do an SA2/Forces deal and make two stages out of several general assets plus other specific ones. 

* City Escape. This level is ICONIC. It must be in, not only on its own merits or nostalgia, but also to open the game and base more levels on it. The truck should of course feature.

* The Highway Trio (Speed, Radical, and Lethal). If only one gets in (betting on Speed), we would be able to blend each together, and feature a connection between each. Of course the hero/dark split would apply, and don’t you want to see Eggman terrorize the latter two and the former be besieged by an alien force. Plus the thought of Route 99 as a multiplayer stage! 

* Lost World. Due to its impact on Adventure’s Story. I also think some SLW references (if in a mostly negative light) would be nice, especially with the parkour sections. Hydrocity elements as well. It would be great to have proper 3D aquatic levels.

* Seaside Hill And/or Ocean Palace. Like the above, but also to fill a GHZ quota and to celebrate the iconic status of the stage. The two could also be complimentary levels.

* Kingdom Valley. For recognition of 06’s iconic level. Let’s toss in Levitated Ruin elements as well. 

* Green Forest and/or White Jungle. Were major in SA2’s plot. I also quite like the gimmicks and visuals here. Tropical Jungle, Leaf Storm, Leaf Forest, Sunset Hill, Iron Jungle, Lost Jungle, Frog Forest, Dinosaur Jungle... they could all be homaged well here. Especially Iron Jungle, due to its own GUN ties, along with Prison Island of course, which means we could even have stuff from the likes of Prison Lane mixed in as a new twist. 

* Crazy Gadget. Because we really need to resolve the ARK problems. 

* Crisis City.

* Sand Oasis. By far the most interesting desert level of the era. 

* Sky Babylon. This level really has a charm to it, and it could tie into the Babylon Rogues. Maybe use stuff from Sky Rail and Sky Canyon? 

* Ice Cap. Just because it was snubbed from Mania. 

* Angel Island and/or Sky Canyon. Just to keep the Emeralds relevant.

* Pumpkin Hill. Who doesn’t love that theme? Maybe also toss in Sky Rail, Death Chamber, and Mystic Mansion elements?

* Sunset Hill. To fill the GHZ quota, I think this is the best method to do so. 

* As for Classic and Modern stages, I suggest Metallic Madness to resolve the Death Egg issue.

 

Story-wise, we could devote it to filling up old plot gaps like the Moon, while tying them into each other and the greater storyline at large. Let us explore some more mature themes, like the inevitability of death! 

Agree. I would include Hang Castle/Mystic Mansion and Final Fortress from Heroes somehow... that could be interesting. If we stay for "Mania" for Adventure series... well, I would stick with SA1, SA2, Heroes, 06 and Shadow... Storybook and handheld aren´t the best thing to add, they should have their own "Mania"... or just have snippets in classic way.

EDIT: Seaside Hill or Ocean Palace... I would go for Ocean Palace as the very first level. Crisis City is needless in my opinion.

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15 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Another thing: maybe we should also separate Adventure Sonic’s world from Modern’s from here on out, just like with classic. Maybe the human/animal world divide can finally be used well?

Except Sonic Adventure didn't have humans and anthros living in seperate worlds. The backstories with Tikal/Chaos/Echidnas and Gerald Robotnik/Shadow/GUN all happen in a world where humans and anthros are both inhabitants. What with Mystic Ruins being in train distance of Station Square and Gerald both making his Ultimate Lifeform a hedgehogalong with  knowing about the Chaos Emeralds enough to make them key in his revenge scheme.

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19 minutes ago, Almar said:

Except Sonic Adventure didn't have humans and anthros living in seperate worlds. The backstories with Tikal/Chaos/Echidnas and Gerald Robotnik/Shadow/GUN all happen in a world where humans and anthros are both inhabitants. What with Mystic Ruins being in train distance of Station Square and Gerald both making his Ultimate Lifeform a hedgehog knowing about the Chaos Emeralds enough to make them key in his revenge scheme.

That's why they suggested making the Adventure era it's own dimension like the Classic era is.

Of course that comes with a whole other host of problems. I can imagine the classic games just happening in some other form if there's just a Classic/Modern split, but:

I) THREE eras just makes it too complicated, and it's already more complicated than it needs to be.

2) Generations aside, the Classic/Modern split can work because the classic games are far simpler so it's easier to adapt them into the current Modern canon, but Adventure era games' stories are too complex to just completely rethink how they worked. 

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1 hour ago, Razule said:

That's why they suggested making the Adventure era it's own dimension like the Classic era is.

Of course that comes with a whole other host of problems. I can imagine the classic games just happening in some other form if there's just a Classic/Modern split, but:

I) THREE eras just makes it too complicated, and it's already more complicated than it needs to be.

2) Generations aside, the Classic/Modern split can work because the classic games are far simpler so it's easier to adapt them into the current Modern canon, but Adventure era games' stories are too complex to just completely rethink how they worked. 

The implication is that in the Modern world, the Adventure games didn’t even really happen. That, say, Unleashed is equivalent to Adventure 1 in the Modern timeline. 

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1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

The implication is that in the Modern world, the Adventure games didn’t even really happen. That, say, Unleashed is equivalent to Adventure 1 in the Modern timeline. 

But.. Shadow and Chaos tho

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2 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

The implication is that in the Modern world, the Adventure games didn’t even really happen. That, say, Unleashed is equivalent to Adventure 1 in the Modern timeline. 

Unleashed had a great template for rebooting the series when it came to story. Could have reintroduced the characters properly with context unlike post-unleashed. Amy and Tails were pretty much the only ones needed to be in the game to show Sonic's friends.  

Man...Imagine if they went with that and finally had a nice little continuation. And I love how Gaia was never defeated but sealed away with chip. 

I await for Sonic Unleashed 2.

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