What does Japan see in Forces?

[Sean]

7 minutes ago, JosepHenry said:

but Forces is marketed towards that fanbase.

Any source on this? Because it seems to me, according to Sega themselves in an interview, that Forces is being marketed toward the audience that makes their own Sonic fancharacters. I haven't been shown any evidence of this and it seems most people jump to this conclusion based on Forces' story seeming more "anime-esque"

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, JosepHenry said:

No one said that the fanbase in Japan is huge, but Forces is marketed towards that fanbase. Being only 3 people or not.

Marketing a game toward three people is bad business, I'm sure you'd agree.

These numbers also do not convince me that Japanese players are more inclined to like modern Sonic in the first place, for that matter.

 

2 minutes ago, Korke said:

Uh.... I'm not sure if people will take vgchartz numbers as valid claims. Welp.

Their numbers are pulled from sales data provided by retailers. Thus, it doesn't account for every single sale exactly, but it still provides a reasonable estimate of sales figures. And even if there's some margin of error, it's clear that the trends show far less Japanese sales of Sonic games.

Some game series do very well in Japan, by contrast. Sonic just isn't one of them.

[JosepHenry]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

Any source on this? Because it seems to me, according to Sega themselves in an interview, that Forces is being marketed toward the audience that makes their own Sonic fancharacters.

There is no source.

The simple fact the marketing being much better in Japan. the fact they had various Forces events in Japan, the fact that the director of the game is putting news everyday, and they are all in japanese.... Why make so much effort for a non-existent fanbase to begin with? Maybe they lost their minds then. Because Sonic is not popular in Japan.

If that's not enough to convince then, there is not much else. There isn't a poll with the Japanese Sonic fanbase, asking which era of Sonic they prefer, Classic or Modern. Besides that one Top 100 games Famitsu poll where Adventure 2 is twice on the list, along with Unleashed, and no classic game in sight. But if it sold that bad, why is it in number 29 out of 100? It shouldn't be near the top 500 then.

https://www.dualshockers.com/persona-5-best-game-time-famitsu/amp/

All I have left is compare the sales of Mania to Forces. But Forces isn't out yet.

[Meta77]

The marketing for forces in Japan is much greater than what's been shown in America.  Also while sales like do many games actually hit large numbers injapan

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, JosepHenry said:

All I have left is compare the sales of Mania to Forces. But Forces isn't out yet.

Mania sold poorly in Japan because all Sonic games sell poorly in Japan.

Even if Forces outsells Mania there, I'm not sure we can take much away from that. It still won't sell well. 

[Cayenne]

Dunno about Forces, but I can say something about Mania and Classic Sonic:

 

In Japan, Sega's 16-bit console got steamrolled by the Super Famicom / SNES and NEC's PC-Engine / Turbografx - 16, so, this may or not explain why the first Sonic the Hedgehog titles and Mania weren't hugely popular there. Most japanese gamers don't have a big nostalgia for classic Sonic like the west has and this is one of Mania's main appeals.

Nintendo consoles before the N64, computers, RPGs and developers/publishers like Square and Enix always had a strong presence there. Their nostalgic games are things like Super Mario, Wizardry, Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, not Sonic. 

[Sean]

So in that Famitsu poll, the 10th ranked game had around 200 points (not actual number of votes). So it's safe to assume that anything below that is roughly 200 or below. I'll give SA2 the benefit of the doubt and guess that it received 150 to 200 points, which is a generous estimation to make.

That means that SA2 received a mere 150-200 points in a poll aimed at Famitsu readers who bothered enough to vote for it in the first place. Even if that's a lot of points, it's nowhere near enough to cover the blanket statements people have been making in this thread regarding Japanese fans as a consensus, especially the one statement that "SA2 is popular in Japan," a belief which seems to only be based on this one single poll.

If Sonic's fanbase is so small in Japan then why are people in this topic making up facts out of thin air or based on flimsy reasoning?

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, Cayenne said:

Dunno about Forces, but I can say something about Mania and Classic Sonic:

 

In Japan, Sega's 16-bit console got steamrolled by the Super Famicom / SNES and NEC's PC-Engine / Turbografx - 16, so, this may or not explain why the first Sonic the Hedgehog titles and Mania weren't hugely popular there. Most japanese gamers don't have a big nostalgia for classic Sonic like the west has and this one of Mania's main appeals.

Nintendo consoles before the N64, computers, RPGs and developers/publishers like Square and Enix always had a strong presence there. Their nostalgic games are things like Super Mario, Wizardry, Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, not Sonic. 

I think this carries over into the modern day as well.

In Japan, Sonic just never made a huge splash like it did in the west, so the Japanese Sonic fandom is middling at best, even today.

[JosepHenry]

Why though, the marketing for Forces has been so focused in Japan then?

[Sean]

Has it really? How so? That Japan has gotten story-focused trailers while we have gotten gameplay-centric clips? That's nothing new; a lot of Japanese advertising plays up the story/dramatic aspect of a work, even if it's something simple like a Disney movie.

[JosepHenry]

I guess so.

[Meta77]

But do many games in Japan sell well

 Japan in general has a hard time selling a ton of units

[Gabz Girl]

5 hours ago, Sean said:

Has it really? How so? That Japan has gotten story-focused trailers while we have gotten gameplay-centric clips? That's nothing new; a lot of Japanese advertising plays up the story/dramatic aspect of a work, even if it's something simple like a Disney movie.

Don’t forget the Hooters promotional tie in. =P

Anyway, what I think is happening here is that Sega is trying to hype Sonic Forces in Japan because of the focus on a serious plot again (which the Japanese seem to find very appealing I guess). I’d be very surprised if it ends up selling well there though because as mentioned before, Sonic has never been very popular in Japan. Sure people might recognise him but there doesn’t exist a huge fan base like in the US and Europe. Not to mention the release date in Japan is a couple of days after the rest of the world gets it. If previous Sonic games haven’t made a big impact in sales I doubt this one will, and I’d be shocked if it does!

[Maxtiis]

5 hours ago, Super Mechanio said:

I think this carries over into the modern day as well.

In Japan, Sonic just never made a huge splash like it did in the west, so the Japanese Sonic fandom is middling at best, even today.

Isn't it the weirdest freakin' thing to hear that in one part of the world a franchise that has exceeded 360 million life time sales, one of the biggest icons of an entire industry, is niche?

I know that's not unheard of, hell even Zelda of all things is like that in Japan, but it's especially strange to for me since Sonic's always been a part of my life. I'd very much like to talk to some of those people and see what they think about the series.

[Your Vest Friend]

Given Famitsu's recent review, it seems that it might be general Japanese tastes and not just the fandom. Which makes sense to me. 

[Rummy]

I mean the only thing i can really show is this.

 

 

[Cayenne]

23 minutes ago, Maxtiis said:

Isn't it the weirdest freakin' thing to hear that in one part of the world a franchise that has exceeded 360 million life time sales, one of the biggest icons of an entire industry, is niche?

I know that's not unheard of, hell even Zelda of all things is like that in Japan, but it's especially strange to for me since Sonic's always been a part of my life. I'd very much like to talk to some of those people and see what they think about the series.

Sonic, Sega Genesis and Sega of America were successful thanks to two things: #1 - Heavy marketing (Blast Processing, Genesis Does, etc.) #2 - Nintendo losing their monopoly. Sega of Europe had #1 and one additional advantage: The Master System was released and enjoyed a good wave of popularity before Nintendo could do anything in that territory.

Sega of Japan didn't have the same luck. They had very strong competitors. The Famicom gigantic sucess, PC-E had one year of advantage over the Mega Drive plus a CD add-on and the SFC simply kicked everyone's butt with Nintendo franchises, the first Street Fighter II port and games from Square and Enix. Every Sega home video game console was niche until the Sega Saturn finally hit the shelves there.

[EmmBee]

10 hours ago, Sean said:

Are there any sources (actual research) to back up any of the claims made in this topic, or is this all speculation based on preconceived notions on Japanese gamers' tastes? Honest question.

If I had to guess, this thread was made in reaction to the rather positive Famitsu review of Forces. That's the only reasoning I could see behind it.

[Tracker_TD]

Perhaps worth mentioning SEGA's most popular system over in Japan was the SEGA Saturn. The one without a major Sonic release; whereas said lack of release is considered by many to be a key contributor in the Saturn's death westwards. Telling of the different attitudes and Sonic's popularity (or lack thereof) there, maybe.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

58 minutes ago, EmmBee said:

If I had to guess, this thread was made in reaction to the rather positive Famitsu review of Forces. That's the only reasoning I could see behind it.

It's actually amazing,  the level to which people have blown their stacks over this.

Yet,  if they didn't rate it that highly, hell,  if they'd rated it low,  the same people likely would've suddenly been more on board with it as gospel that the game sucks,  so long as it aligned with their point of view. :U

[Emerald Chaos]

If the Japanese fans really respond more positively to a game like SA2, 06 and Forces, that can go a long way to explaining why Sonic Team's approach to making games is so weird and haphazard.

Odds are they're going to be more in touch with that fanbase than the western one and will be more inclined to try to appease them.

[Nicky Nicardo]

27 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Ace Joranvexeon said:

It's actually amazing,  the level to which people have blown their stacks over this.

Yet,  if they didn't rate it that highly, hell,  if they'd rated it low,  the same people likely would've suddenly been more on board with it as gospel that the game sucks,  so long as it aligned with their point of view. :U

I gotta say... I agree with you on that.

[Remy]

10 hours ago, Super Mechanio said:

(VG Chartz Fanfic)

There's no sales history for the Dreamcast version of SA2 outside of Japan, but let's look at SA2:B for Gamecube:

Sonic is not a popular series in Japan. Most Sonic games don't even sell a million units there; Indeed, most don't even sell half that number. So marketing Sonic to supposed Japanese tastes hasn't worked in the past and doesn't make much sense from a business perspective now. 

If Japan "loves" modern Sonic, then I'd like to see sales figures for games they hate. 

I guarantee you, Japan's Forces sales won't exceed half a million - across all platforms. (Of course, I don't think it'll perform super well anywhere else either, but it'll do especially poorly in Japan.)

VG Chartz is basically fanfic dude. It's not a reliable source for anything, at all ever. The numbers are rarely sourced, unreliable, and complete nonsense with no relation to reality. I'm pretty sure the whole site exists to give fanboys ammo in forum debates. Even then, if we take them at face value the low numbers there only prove one thing, as you've said Sonic isn't as popular in Japan as he is in the west.

If you're trying to argue that "Japan doesn't like modern Sonic more than classic Sonic" I don't think that's true. It's actually somewhat hard to get sales information from old games (re: before 2002 ish) in japan because afaik the main source was paper famitsu magazines and I don't think people bothered preserving or digitizing them. Despite that, this is a chart of Sonic series sales in Japan taken from some sort of SEGA magazine

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=179689675&postcount=304

Quote

Sonic the Hedgehog

[PS2] Sonic Heroes (Sega) {2003.12.30} - 41.839
[Xbox] Sonic Heroes (Sega) {2003.12.30} - 1.492
[GC] Sonic Heroes (Sega) {2003.12.30} - 67.088
[GBA] Sonic Battle (Sega) {2003.12.04} - 76.397
[GBA] Sonic Pinball Party (Sega) {2003.07.17} - 8.292
[GC] Sonic Adventure DX: Director's Cut (Sega) {2003.06.17} - 71.909
[GBA] Sonic Advance 2 (Sega) {2002.12.19} - 203.055
[GC] Sonic Mega Collection (Sega) {2002.12.19} - 89.250
[GBA] Sonic Advance (Sega) {2001.12.20} - 201.850
[GC] Sonic Adventure 2 Battle (Sega) {2001.12.20} - 291.126
[DC] Sonic Adventure 2 (Sega) {2001.06.23} - 82.318
[DC] Sonic Shuffle (Sega) {2000.12.21} - 10.630
[DC] Sonic Adventure (Sega) {1998.12.23} - 455.005
[MD] Sonic & Knuckles (Sega) {1994.10.28} - 15.987
[MD] Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (Sega) {1994.05.27} - 136.203
[MD] Sonic the Hedgehog CD (Sega) {1993.04.14} - 16.368
[MD] Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Sega) {1992.09.23} - 112.583
[GG] Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Sega) {1992.11.21} - 48.462

The highest selling games are Sonic Adventure 1, SA2B, Advance 1 and Advance 2.

Consider that based SA1 Dreamcast sold almost 500k copies on a console that only moved 2 million systems total. That's an attach rate of almost 25% which is pretty fucking insane (good.) You've mentioned that Sonic doesn't clear a million in Japan, but while true this is extremely misleading. Barely any games sell over a million in Japan to begin with, and doing so would probably land you in the top 100 sold games of all time. You have to adjust your expectations for what is a much smaller market than the american one

Japan definitely is going to have more fans that prefer the two Adventure games over anything else and a game capitalizing off of that nostalgia is going to do better than one targeting the MD titles, that weren't that popular. I do think a big part of the design of the original SA was appealing to the japanese market more.

Now, is going after this market wise compared to going after the west? Of course not. The Japanese market is smaller than the US, and more focused on portable/mobile (ex: look at how lost world 3ds killed the console version in japan) but as a Japanese dev team they're going to be in tune with the locals then they are with gamers overseas.

[Sean]

If those numbers are more accurate then it's interesting to note that Sonic Adventure on the GameCube sold far less than its Dreamcast counterpart, even failing to outdo Sonic Mega Collection on the same platform.

This does indicate to me that SA1 and SA2(B) enjoyed some popularity over in Japan, but it doesn't tell me that they're currently popular now, or that fans there would buy into a game that appeals to Adventure nostalgia. Sales numbers also aren't an accurate indicator of people's personal tastes or preferences, so I'd still like to know where people are getting the idea that Japanese people straight up prefer modern Sonic over classic, if Sonic Mega Collection on the GameCube sold more than the GCN versions of SA1 and Heroes combined (though it didn't outsell all three versions of Heroes, but this list is missing the PS2/Xbox versions of Mega Collection and Shadow the Hedgehog).

Also interesting how Sonic 3 sold far more than any previous classic Sonic game despite myself expecting it to perform one of the worst. (lmao @ S&K selling even less than Sonic fucking CD)

[Remy]

Yeah, at the end of the day I think a lot of sales based speculation is ultimately pointless.

As you've said, seeing that 455k people bought SA1 in Japan isn't the same thing as "there are 455k people who love SA1 and want to play a sequel" but it's somewhat interesting.