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How will Sonic Forces be looked back on?


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41 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

I knew, and I could not help but notice that the actual joke may be your joke coming back to haunt you later. :D 

 

Maybe, maybe not, but I have found in my own experience that certain online venues are better demographical representations than others. My experience tells me, for example, that Reddit is a more accurate, properly distributed reflection of the prevailing public discourse than what other sites may suggest. r/SonictheHedgehog's userbase is largely pleased by the leaks in Sonic Forces in contrast with their dismal experience with Sonic Lost World and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, which leads me to believe the game holds promise in the gaming community at large. You also fail to estimate the sheer number of Sonic OC artists on DeviantArt, which in my insta-quick, non-scientific scroll-and-counting methodology, number easily in the thousands, many of which appear to be positively hyped for Sonic Forces.

Your experience may be misleading you. As I pointed out, there are a lot of excited Sonic fans online that care enough to post about Mania and Forces but these evidently do not represent the majority of game buyers. It may be possible that a majority of Sonic fans online actually are excited about Forces (even if vocal in different proportions)...but this doesn't mean Forces will sell great because diehard Sonic fans are a very small subset of gaming consumers. Again, my declining sales point. There is no online hub that is a microcosm of the general gaming populace. If there were, advertising would be much simpler for big companies. 

This is how AAA franchises typically work: Many more people will buy the game and play it than actually care to reddit about it. People who reddit/twitter/youtube about it are there because they care about the game and probably were led there by advertising if they didn't already care, because ad companies are not stupid and know ahead of time they will care. But there are a very large number who won't ever visit a r/Sonic thread and won't buy the game either. They may buy Mario since anyone would be curious about a contender for GOTY, but not Forces if the buzz isn't noteworthy.

 

And if it does sell well? Great for Sonic Team, great for those fans. Its not what I want but Sonic Team (as a developer) should want to find some stability in their efforts which have been notably all over the place. And SEGA wants to make Sonic a brand again and if this does that for them, then they'll have what they want. And that's fine. They can then market towards that crowd and not have to worry about executing games in ways they no longer have the talent to do.

...I'm just not too optimistic about that. I'm an obvious Classic Sonic fan but beyond my personal taste, I understand the appeal (or lack thereof) among different demographics. This "game" is less about videogame depth and more about cinematic experience. There are a lot of modern gamers who like that, which is why I think it will at least sell decently... but I also do think there will be many issues with the barebones approach to platforming content and many people who are not invested in Sonic's friends in this series will also not be as invested in the story. It is quite possible they may even think...*shock*.... it is really stupid...which let's be honest, has happened on more than one occasion in this franchise.

Its not coming back to haunt me. As a longtime fan, this is a useful exercise in determining if my tastes are actually being catered to. If not, I can just play something else. I've only held out this long because my desires more or less aligned with Sonic Team's ideal goal in the past but if that changes with Forces...I'll just play something else. I probably should have moved on long ago but hey...foolish me for loving Sonic and his original appeal.

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1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I would not qualify Sonic Next Gen ('06) as Sonic Team having passion. Yuji Naka quitting Sonic Team halfway through development is sort of an automatic disqualifier. That game was a complete mess from top to bottom that needs to be forgotten. It did nothing right and if we're to imagine a universe with a fully polished Sonic '06, we're wasting our time because we're imagining a completely different game at that point.

Boom is different because it wasn't even a mainline Sonic game and not produced by Sonic Team. I criticize SEGA for allowing that game to be released but Sonic Team had little to do with it and I don't really point fingers at them for that.

I do not believe each Sonic game in the Modern era has been made with the same level of effort. Whether by company meddling or not, some projects were given maximum effort and passion by the company and developers and some were not, regardless of the result. I think SA1 and Unleashed are two good examples of Sonic Team giving it their all and the marketing by the company running at full scale, even though the execution was not totally solid; games like Heroes, Shadow, '06, Boom were not for several reasons that have been discussed many times. 

Did he quit before Sega split the team or after? What was his reasons? I don't think using Naka like that gives you qualification to say the game had no level of passion put into it. There was. It just got juked.

What made you decide to quit Sega, or at least no longer work under the name Sega?

YN: Well, I could have stayed under Sega itself, but I already had a very high position there.

The game industry has a very short history behind it, and as a result, the more games you make, the further you work your way up the company ladder, until you become one of the heads of the whole outfit. Once that happens, you start running out of time to actually make games.

It's better to keep yourself directly involved with the actual game process, you know? Directors are pretty high up the job ladder in the movie industry, but they're still involved with every aspect of the film they're working on; they're still making movies their entire careers.

The game industry isn't quite like that, and I think that's a lost opportunity for a lot of people.

I also know he wasn't pleased with Sega's management during(after?) Sonic 1.

Another one;

"One of the reasons I left Sega was, if I stayed there, I would have had to just make Sonic games," he told Polygon in an interview at Prope's Tokyo headquarters. "Right now I don't have to make Sonic anymore, so I'm enjoying that freedom a lot."

Another big reason why Sonic 06 flopped is because Yuji took part of the team with him for his own company. So that combined with Sega's decision gave the falsification that the game was made with no soul.

https://andrearitsu.com/2015/08/01/just-how-did-sonic-2006-happen/

So it wasn't just Sega's fault huh....

I'd largely agree that Sonic Unleashed and Adventure having the most ambition/passion. More so because they were redefining Sonic to new heights. World Adventure was better executed however. 

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That game was a complete mess from top to bottom that needs to be forgotten.

It won't and it shouldn't. Sonic 06 is a great example of what no to do in development.

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21 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

This is how AAA franchises typically work: Many more people will buy the game and play it than actually care to reddit about it. People who reddit/twitter/youtube about it are there because they care about the game and probably were led there by advertising if they didn't already care, because ad companies are not stupid and know ahead of time they will care.

Typically, you will see more people prone to complain than give praise in an online setting, and this is one area in particular where Sonic Forces seems to be doing very well in the Reddit-sphere.

 

21 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Its not coming back to haunt me. As a longtime fan, this is a useful exercise in determining if my tastes are actually being catered to. If not, I can just play something else. I've only held out this long because my desires more or less aligned with Sonic Team's ideal goal in the past but if that changes with Forces...I'll just play something else. I probably should have moved on long ago but hey...foolish me for loving Sonic and his original appeal.

For the sake of clarifying, I was speaking of preferences in general, not personal appeal to you or other fans who make up SSMB's overall demographic which I respect entirely. If someone does not like any media even if popular opinion may tell them otherwise, bottom line: they are the only ones who can decide this and, perhaps for the best, they should not play it. I was speaking of your prediction, what you in humor had posted, actually turning out to be true. Many people would find it haunting if they humorously predicted a subjectively undesirable outcome, only for that very outcome to actually come to pass.

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Remember back at the start of the year when SEGA said they were going to do better? (This https://www.polygon.com/2015/7/7/8906275/sega-ceo-sonic-boom-console-betrayed-trust if anyone is interested.) Sonic Forces is going to be seen as SEGA breaking that promise, especially after Mania released to much applause and it looked as if they were actually serious about making Sonic respectable again.

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4 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Its not clear what the majority appeal is with Sonic today... other than that the mainstream audience doesn't find him appealing enough to continue buying his games. Its really only diehard Sonic fans that have been keeping the franchise afloat since 2006 as sales have been steadily declining.

Generations sold like 3.5 million. They could be doing better, but that's got to be more than the "diehards."

Aside from Lost World and RoL sucking, they were Wii U exclusives. A console that lasted 2 years?

Lets see Forces sales before concluding that they are heading down the drain.

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1 hour ago, rahkeesh said:

Generations sold like 3.5 million. They could be doing better, but that's got to be more than the "diehards."

Aside from Lost World and RoL sucking, they were Wii U exclusives. A console that lasted 2 years?

Lets see Forces sales before concluding that they are heading down the drain.

Generations only sold 1.85 million...

4 hours ago, hifihedgehog said:

Typically, you will see more people prone to complain than give praise in an online setting, and this is one area in particular where Sonic Forces seems to be doing very well in the Reddit-sphere.

 

For the sake of clarifying, I was speaking of preferences in general, not personal appeal to you or other fans who make up SSMB's overall demographic which I respect entirely. If someone does not like any media even if popular opinion may tell them otherwise, bottom line: they are the only ones who can decide this and, perhaps for the best, they should not play it. I was speaking of your prediction, what you in humor had posted, actually turning out to be true. Many people would find it haunting if they humorously predicted a subjectively undesirable outcome, only for that very outcome to actually come to pass.

"Undesirable" outcome? Well yeah to traditional sonic fans like myself I guess forces doing well would be an undesirable outcome because we don't want games like that. But speaking for myself here, if the Sonic franchise can find a way to make games that appeal to a broad audience, even if they doesn't suit my tastes, I don't think I could be upset about that. I'd rather see Sonic flourish than be a perpetual punching bag, even if that means I retire from the series due to lack of interest. I'm a lifelong Sonic fan but the franchise has to do what's best for it. And that's all I want to argue on these boards when the conversations come up. How can Sonic once again compete with the top platforming titles on the market? That's all I really talk about here because my tastes are probably different than someone who grew up with Sonic Adventure 2 and I'm not going to bother trying to convince them not to love what they do. I'll only argue what I think based on many variables will help Sonic restore his name and cease to be a mediocre, meme-producing franchise.

It'll be very interesting to see the initial market reaction to forces on Tuesday. If it does well, a lot of fans like myself will have to accept that Sonic has found something that works for him even if we don't like it. If it doesn't do too well, then I guess we'll have to speak even louder about Sonic because the franchise will not be in a okay place and SEGA will have some tough, but clear choices to make. And make no mistake, regardless of what happens with Forces, Mania has already been a very big success for the company all-around. They will have to look at that going forward and address it in some significant way. The original Sonic is still appealing, still popular, still fun after 20 + years.

 

Because Tuesday is only days away, I'm at the point in which I don't want to speculate anymore. I'm extremely interested to see what actually  happens. And maybe one day I'll get the 3D Classic-inspired Sonic game I've been waiting for, for a very long time.

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3 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Generations only sold 1.85 million...

No, he was correct: it sold over 3 million. That 1.85 million figure you cite is likely based on solely the first or second quarter sales after release, which is typically less than 50% of overall lifetime sales. Estimated lifetime sales show total units sold across all platforms (PS3, Xbox 360, PC) is upwards of 3 million total copies. Now, from the vantage point of the Internet as a whole, Sonic Forces has the makings of very decent sales potential, around 2 to 3 million copies.  We shall see, though. We shall see. I am banking on a Tuesday surprise and I am one of those who sees Sonic Forces, in spite of its otherwise minor quirks that longtime fans easily notice, as a net positive step forward and a generally good game. I am pleasantly looking forward to getting many hours of solid playtime in this Tuesday including playing through the Episode Shadow DLC that will be a full-on surprise for everyone. I also am also pleasantly looking forward to other surprises that I sense, based on the subtle hints dropped today in the Twitter takeover, which are yet in store.

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27 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

No, he was correct: it sold over 3 million. That 1.85 million figure you cite is likely based on solely the first or second quarter sales after release, which is typically less than 50% of overall lifetime sales. Estimated lifetime sales show total units sold across all platforms (PS3, Xbox 360, PC) is upwards of 3 million total copies. Now, from the vantage point of the Internet as a whole, Sonic Forces has the makings of very decent sales potential, around 2 to 3 million copies.  We shall see, though. We shall see. I am banking on a Tuesday surprise and I am one of those who sees Sonic Forces, in spite of its otherwise minor quirks that longtime fans easily notice, as a net positive step forward and a generally good game. I am pleasantly looking forward to getting many hours of solid playtime in this Tuesday including playing through the Episode Shadow DLC that will be a full-on surprise for everyone. I also am also pleasantly looking forward to other surprises that I sense, based on the subtle hints dropped today in the Twitter takeover, which are yet in store.

If that is the case...Didn't Unleashed sell over 5 million? I keep seeing this over and over again yet I can only find 2.45 million in total from 2008-2009.

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18 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Did he quit before Sega split the team or after? What was his reasons? I don't think using Naka like that gives you qualification to say the game had no level of passion put into it. There was. It just got juked.

What made you decide to quit Sega, or at least no longer work under the name Sega?

YN: Well, I could have stayed under Sega itself, but I already had a very high position there.

The game industry has a very short history behind it, and as a result, the more games you make, the further you work your way up the company ladder, until you become one of the heads of the whole outfit. Once that happens, you start running out of time to actually make games.

It's better to keep yourself directly involved with the actual game process, you know? Directors are pretty high up the job ladder in the movie industry, but they're still involved with every aspect of the film they're working on; they're still making movies their entire careers.

The game industry isn't quite like that, and I think that's a lost opportunity for a lot of people.

I also know he wasn't pleased with Sega's management during(after?) Sonic 1.

Another one;

"One of the reasons I left Sega was, if I stayed there, I would have had to just make Sonic games," he told Polygon in an interview at Prope's Tokyo headquarters. "Right now I don't have to make Sonic anymore, so I'm enjoying that freedom a lot."

Another big reason why Sonic 06 flopped is because Yuji took part of the team with him for his own company. So that combined with Sega's decision gave the falsification that the game was made with no soul.

https://andrearitsu.com/2015/08/01/just-how-did-sonic-2006-happen/

So it wasn't just Sega's fault huh....

I'd largely agree that Sonic Unleashed and Adventure having the most ambition/passion. More so because they were redefining Sonic to new heights. World Adventure was better executed however. 

It won't and it shouldn't. Sonic 06 is a great example of what no to do in development.

This point actually works against your position. Naka is saying exactly what I'm accusing the game of, which is that he was burned out with only having to work on Sonic games and left SEGA to do his own thing. So the game was botched and rushed by the company, meaning that the maximum amount of care was not put into it. There are other articles from around this time period around SEGA and the mood at the company that one can look into (I'd have to dig them up for you) but this 'lack of soul' was confirmed by others as well. Sonic games priorities at that time were just to be kicked out the door on schedule regardless of quality control. And it showed.

 

10 hours ago, hifihedgehog said:

No, he was correct: it sold over 3 million. That 1.85 million figure you cite is likely based on solely the first or second quarter sales after release, which is typically less than 50% of overall lifetime sales. Estimated lifetime sales show total units sold across all platforms (PS3, Xbox 360, PC) is upwards of 3 million total copies. Now, from the vantage point of the Internet as a whole, Sonic Forces has the makings of very decent sales potential, around 2 to 3 million copies.  We shall see, though. We shall see. I am banking on a Tuesday surprise and I am one of those who sees Sonic Forces, in spite of its otherwise minor quirks that longtime fans easily notice, as a net positive step forward and a generally good game. I am pleasantly looking forward to getting many hours of solid playtime in this Tuesday including playing through the Episode Shadow DLC that will be a full-on surprise for everyone. I also am also pleasantly looking forward to other surprises that I sense, based on the subtle hints dropped today in the Twitter takeover, which are yet in store.

Hmm, I'd been seeing that Generations, though by no means a flop, was a bit underwhelming financially from SEGA''s point of view. But I'll have to correct that. We also need a reliable consistent source of sales information, since the vgchartz is not it.

It is still true however that sonic game sales have been on the decline for some time. The franchise is still afloat, but not close to what it wants to be in magnitude. You have to understand that at one point SEGA had a majority market share of all consoles in the West (though it'll never happen again), beating out the giant Nintendo...in large part due to sonic the hedgehog. SEGA want the Sonic brand to return to influential heights like that. It hasn't been that way since the 90s.

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7 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

This point actually works against your position. Naka is saying exactly what I'm accusing the game of, which is that he was burned out with only having to work on Sonic games and left SEGA to do his own thing. So the game was botched and rushed by the company, meaning that the maximum amount of care was not put into it. There are other articles from around this time period around SEGA and the mood at the company that one can look into (I'd have to dig them up for you) but this 'lack of soul' was confirmed by others as well. Sonic games priorities at that time were just to be kicked out the door on schedule regardless of quality control. And it showed.

 

Hmm, I'd been seeing that Generations, though by no means a flop, was a bit underwhelming financially from SEGA''s point of view. But I'll have to correct that. We also need a reliable consistent source of sales information, since the vgchartz is not it.

It is still true however that sonic game sales have been on the decline for some time. The franchise is still afloat, but not close to what it wants to be in magnitude. You have to understand that at one point SEGA had a majority market share of all consoles in the West (though it'll never happen again), beating out the giant Nintendo...in large part due to sonic the hedgehog. SEGA want the Sonic brand to return to influential heights like that. It hasn't been that way since the 90s.

(Thought I edited that post..)

What I meant to edit in my post before your response was that there was a certain air of wanting to create a really good game in the very beginning stages of development. 

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Hmm, I'd been seeing that Generations, though by no means a flop, was a bit underwhelming financially from SEGA''s point of view. But I'll have to correct that. We also need a reliable consistent source of sales information, since the vgchartz is not it.

The problem is that you can only find the sales numbers during and a year after the release(typically). I can't find anything on the 3 million sales but I hear this everywhere I go.

Same reason why I can't find this "Sonic Unleashed sold 5 million" proof. 2008-2009 was 2.45 million but from 2009-????

It's a mystery....

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I think it will be one of the more forgettable games in the entire series. It has nothing really outstanding with the exception of the avatar. It doesn't have an outstanding gameplay style, or music, or a brand new story to tell. It also doesn't have any real memorable new characters, levels or scenes. It really is nothing honestly.

Sonic 3 & and Knuckles has really memorable zones, Knuckles as a new character and the whole story with the master emerald. SA2 had Shadow and his memorable story, outstanding music from Crush 40 and Rouge. Sonic Lost World had the Deadly Six and the parkour system. Black Knight had Merlina, the sword gameplay and the ridiculous King Arthur story. Colors had the Wisps. Unleashed the Boost gameplay, Chip and the Werehog. Boom had the new designs and the whole brought the whole dark age circle back. Even Sonic 06, as bad as it is, at least had some elements that can be seen as their own ideas like Elise, Mephilies, the weird story and some levels.

I'm sorry, but Sonic Forces is probably the most boring, basic looking 3D Sonic. And I think this will be how people will look back on it. It will just be forgotten and will be over shadowed by better or even worst games of the series. 

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As of right now who the hell knows? The game isn't due for official release for another 3 days and even afterwards it'll have to spend a little time stewing before we can reach a definitive conclusion. Early estimates about it being polarizing are probably right, but more than that I can't say. I consider something like this to be a final verdict as it were and that's something I'm not comfortable giving my thoughts on until I get the game in my own hands.

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Sonic Forces has Eggman finally ruling the world.

It has you creating your own character for the first making OCs canon.

It brings back iconic villains for the occasion.

It utilizes Wisps as weapons.

It has the Tag-Team mechanic, which aid different from Heroes' 3 team mechanic.

It has Shadow playable for the first time in years.

Vocal themes returned.

Say what you want about the game but your argument barely makes any sense about Forces being "basic" or "boring" if all those games whether good or bad have "memorable" moments, I don't see why the hell Forces can't.

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34 minutes ago, Dee Dude said:

Sonic Forces has Eggman finally ruling the world.

It has you creating your own character for the first making OCs canon.

It brings back iconic villains for the occasion.

It utilizes Wisps as weapons.

It has the Tag-Team mechanic, which aid different from Heroes' 3 team mechanic.

It has Shadow playable for the first time in years.

Vocal themes returned.

Most of the stuff we already had in some sort of form. We already could play as Shadow in a lot of games, we already had the Wisps as power ups, we fought all of those villains in the past, we had vocal songs in the past games.

I really only see the avatar as the most outstanding new feature. Sorry, but everything we already had. 

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Pretty much all of that stuff is actually really underwhelming, though.

Like, sure, ok, technically Eggman takes over the world. But the game can't actually sell the idea at all, not once during the game does it actually feel like you're in a world under Eggman's control. Once Sonic's back everything plays out like any other game in the series.

And the only thing notable about the returning villains is how shockingly poorly they're used. Zavok is the only one that does anything of any importance and he's "dead" after the first 3 or 4 levels or something.

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14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Pretty much all of that stuff is actually really underwhelming, though.

Like, sure, ok, technically Eggman takes over the world. But the game can't actually sell the idea at all, not once during the game does it actually feel like you're in a world under Eggman's control. Once Sonic's back everything plays out like any other game in the series.

And the only thing notable about the returning villains is how shockingly poorly they're used. Zavok is the only one that does anything of any importance and he's "dead" after the first 3 or 4 levels or something.

You are right. This is also something that the games lacks. It doesn't had one single memorable Boss fight. Zavok as really the best handled of the bunch and he was just okay. 

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Pretty much all of that stuff is actually really underwhelming, though.

Subjectively speaking. :P There are plenty more users outside of SSMB who say otherwise, fans and non-fans alike. Dee Dude hit the nail on the head. You can nitpick about minor cosmetic or functional quirks here and there. However, the synergistic whole or big picture of how it all comes together is what matters for most people. Sonic Forces is not the same as past Adventure games, but holistically, it is good in general.

2 hours ago, Dee Dude said:

Sonic Forces has Eggman finally ruling the world.

It has you creating your own character for the first making OCs canon.

It brings back iconic villains for the occasion.

It utilizes Wisps as weapons.

It has the Tag-Team mechanic, which aid different from Heroes' 3 team mechanic.

It has Shadow playable for the first time in years.

Vocal themes returned.

Say what you want about the game but your argument barely makes any sense about Forces being "basic" or "boring" if all those games whether good or bad have "memorable" moments, I don't see why the hell Forces can't.

 

16 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

If that is the case...Didn't Unleashed sell over 5 million? I keep seeing this over and over again yet I can only find 2.45 million in total from 2008-2009.

True, but here is the disclaimer: these estimates are based on VGChartz. In practice, I have often found their numbers to fall accurately in line with the sales of new titles that companies publish in their press announcements and quarterly results. For this reason, I believe VGChartz is more scientifically rooted and data-based than just them licking their finger and throwing it up in the wind hoping to get a lucky prediction.

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1 hour ago, hifihedgehog said:

 For this reason, I believe VGChartz is more scientifically rooted and data-based than just them licking their finger and throwing it up in the wind hoping to get a lucky prediction.

VGChartz has been doing just that for nearly a decade.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/109870/Analysis_What_VGChartz_Does_And_Doesnt_Do_For_The_Game_Biz.php

http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/06/data-on-the-web-vgchartz-vs-np.html

They don't get full data, they get incomplete inaccurate data from a small subset of outlets and then upscale it based in trends and estimations.

 

 

2 hours ago, hifihedgehog said:

Dee Dude hit the nail on the head. 

All they did was list some stuff that happens and say 'this isn't boring yet didn't provide anything quantifiable to explain why isn't not boring. 

Example. Wisp weapons, so what? I have yet to see anyone explain why these are fun.

All I see is a one button combat mode which instant kills anything in range that has 0 cool down time or ammo count making the whole game!e stupidly easy removing any thought from the person playing it.

 

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I'm a "they" now lol?

What I explained is that looking back, Forces will still have somethings people will remember it for regardless of it's quality it be good or bad.

Swing's logic is that every Sonic game including games 06, Boom, and Black Knight are remembered for the things they've added and I argued back that Forces does the same things as well.

I've never said the things I listed were fun, even if I do think so.

Why must words always be put into my damn mouth? I don't even like debating.

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22 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

(Thought I edited that post..)

What I meant to edit in my post before your response was that there was a certain air of wanting to create a really good game in the very beginning stages of development. 

The problem is that you can only find the sales numbers during and a year after the release(typically). I can't find anything on the 3 million sales but I hear this everywhere I go.

Same reason why I can't find this "Sonic Unleashed sold 5 million" proof. 2008-2009 was 2.45 million but from 2009-????

It's a mystery....

Game sales too much time after release is kinda relative. Didn't Generations cost only a few bucks on Steam since 2013? That would mean almost no profit at all.

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7 minutes ago, PandaChao said:

1st review out for Sonic Forces.

https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/5/16609838/sonic-forces-review

I guess we know what's to come now. lol

A shame that they don't touch on the controls or give much of an opinion about the story, but they do talk at length about how the gameplay is unremarkable and made up of set piece after set piece. A five is about what this game deserves.

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