Playable Characters Discussion

[hifihedgehog]

29 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I think the general audience wants good sonic games, and sales have gone down even when there were less characters because people got tired of bad sonic games. You conveniently ignore that point though, that they did the exact thing that you said and it didn't help because bad sonic games are bad sonic games. 

This is so true. There are non-Sonic fans I know who completely acknowledge the flaws in '06 but they like the game due to the range of characters and their unique personalities that contribute to the story. In fact, one guy in particular I spoke with recently at my university who was underwhelmed by Lost World is excited for Forces because it brings back multiple characters, even if to not quite the same, albeit broken degree of '06. People can be more willing to ignore flaws if character selection is diverse enough.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I'm sure you know what I'm about to say, but Sonic Mania did not receive mainstream backlash at over 86% positive ratings on metacritic, and several award nominations. A number does not have to be 100% to be indicative but its clear that it had very broad appeal. This is the same thing that happened in the classic era when Sonic's main games routinely scored 90% and above. This is the reality you speak of. At one point in history, Sonic was widely loved ( little to no mainstream backlash) and recently we saw a glimpse of what it was then. The experimentation that earned the series negative marks is when things like treasure hunting, mech shooting, fishing, and convoluted plots started becoming the norm.  I don't want to labor this point so I'll move on...

 

However I would like to stress (and please don't take this the wrong way because its not personal, we're just chatting): Who cares if YOU want Sonic's friends and their gameplay in the main games if they continue to drag the series down? Think about it. In several recent threads I've made a point about Sonic games sales declining over time, as well as their critical reception. You or I may love the games that have been put out in the franchise over the last 15 + years but if the general audience doesn't, and is even less interested than they were then...why should SEGA care if you think multiple playable characters should be in the games? If the goal is for Sonic to be a AAA franchise and sell millions of copies, with high marks in critical reception, then why would anyone care about elements that obstruct that goal? Historically speaking, Sonic's main 3D titles have never handled those elements well and always get bashed for it, which has affected the reputation of the franchise over time and is partially responsible for declining sales. "Sonic stupid friends", and all the rest of the memes that come with having to include Sonic's sixty friends and the stupid plots required to justify their inclusion in the story/narrative should be avoided at all costs until they can be done in a way that positively adds to the franchise's success in sales and critical reception.

This is why a side series is the best option. People like yourself who must have their playable Shadow or whoever, can get it while the main series games get the proper focus to be successful. And then "gotta have Silver" crowd can be pleased while still having the game be useful for further development of ideas. To me this is an obvious win win. That crowd can get what they want without turning off the general audience to Sonic and may even find new creative wrinkles for the formula.

This is all me talking though.

 

Mania was well received compared to recent Sonic games but he will die quickly. Already seeing it.

The issue? Today's standards/folks are different than in the 80's and 90's. Sega had their own console market. Their new mascot was a smash ,out rivaled Nintendo and beat them...For about a few years or so.

What the fans don't understand is that Sonic's sales was dying after Sonic 1(as was Sega's console market after the genesis). Once Sonic 2 hit; It was too late. Sonic 2 didn't even hit close to the same mark as Sonic 1 did.  S&K3 combined made 4 million. Sonic CD made 1.5 million. Sonic Jam didn't even hit a million.

Compare that to  30 million with Sonic 1?

Critics started to get sick of him when his 3rd game was released(making such claims that the fanbase makes fun of when it comes to the boost gameplay. Hold x to win). Though Sonic 3 in general was a scrambled and rushed mess. Sega decided to not prioritize themselves with the release of the game, which resulted in massive cut content(paying at full price!) and various game bugs.

It's obvious that Sonic was to be a quick buck(how ironic) and not long lasting. Sonic has sadly never hit that precious gold mine he did with his first 2 games, especially Sonic 1.

Mania is the same if not worse.

With so many titles in the current era compared to yesterday; Sonic Mania will fall into obscurity as quickly as his popularity came when referring to mainstream. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Give it a minute, folks will start shitting on it. 

If they announced sonic adventure 3, like tomorrow people would loose their damn mind, people want different things out of the series. And just because you see it as negative marks doesn't mean that everyone else does really. The assumption that everyone is only the classic fan base denies  the fact that there have been massive success in each era, and children who grew up with them

I care, because I have no obligation to anyone in regards to my consumption of media besides myself. 

I think the general audience wants good sonic games, and sales have gone down even when there were less characters because people got tired of bad sonic games. You conveniently ignore that point though, that they did the exact thing that you said and it didn't help because bad sonic games are bad sonic games. 

I mean like I want shadow to have his own franchise, but that's another discussion .You can't decide whats win win, some folks wanna play as silver in a mainline sonic game again, that's their prerogative. They don't have to give a shit about turning off the general audience, because sonic tried to appeal to those people. And guess what, turns out they only cared the quality part. Oh man, a general audience who looses their minds at the thought of sonic adventure 3 being a thing, doesn't care about friends being in or out of the game, they care about the game being bad? Oh man, wild stuff I know

 

The classic games are still highly regarded just like they were in 1994. This isn't going to change with Mania. 

 

Sonic adventure 3 being the thing that the general audience goes crazy for is....well I'm not sure what to say. There is in arguably a lot of hype surrounding that game but not in a positive sense. That's putting it mildly...

But without getting into yet another one of these sort of arguments, I'd just like to point out that my aim is not to convince you not to like or want adventure style games. Merely to point out the reality that outside of diehard fans of that era, few desire to see them return. Which is why they havent. Even Takashi Iizuka recently commented on exactly this.

 

So assuming we're at the same starting point, which is general acknowledgement that adventure style games are niche, then you can see my point that it's best to handle them as a side series so that that minority of fans can still support the franchise, but the main series can regain focus.

And I'm guessing we're not in agreement on that, so unfortunately we probably can't proceed further on this subject. 

(I don't think what Im stating is too much an opinion though. Those games are extremely polarizing even among the fan base alone....and the general gaming community has all but laughed and memed the confidence out of SEGA to ever do a game like that again.)

 

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

7 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Mania was well received compared to recent Sonic games but he will die quickly. Already seeing it.

The issue? Today's standards/folks are different than in the 80's and 90's. Sega had their own console market. Their new mascot was a smash ,out rivaled Nintendo and beat them...For about a few years or so.

What the fans don't understand is that Sonic's sales was dying after Sonic 1(as was Sega's console market after the genesis). Once Sonic 2 hit; It was too late. Sonic 2 didn't even hit close to the same mark as Sonic 1 did.  S&K3 combined made 4 million. Sonic CD made 1.5 million. Sonic Jam didn't even hit a million.

Compare that to  30 million with Sonic 1?

Critics started to get sick of him when his 3rd game was released(making such claims that the fanbase makes fun of when it comes to the boost gameplay. Hold x to win). Though Sonic 3 in general was a scrambled and rushed mess. Sega decided to not prioritize themselves with the release of the game, which resulted in massive cut content(paying at full price!) and various game bugs.

It's obvious that Sonic was to be a quick buck(how ironic) and not long lasting. Sonic has sadly never hit that precious gold mine he did with his first 2 games, especially Sonic 1.

Mania is the same if not worse.

With so many titles in the current era compared to yesterday; Sonic Mania will fall into obscurity as quickly as his popularity came when referring to mainstream. 

I absolutely agree that Mania as a 2D entry is not going to revive the brand alone. It's a small budget, side entry thing. 2D games are not AAA mainstream entries anymore. Sonic needs to have an excellent 3D entry in order to truly restore the brand. 

 

But Sonic Team (or whoever continues to develop Sonic games) can learn a lot from Mania in the basic appeal of the Sonic franchise. Even though it was a smaller title, Mania reminded many people in the gaming community why the Sonic franchise was ever successful in the first place.

Intelligently apply that inspiration to the 3D titles and move forward. But this can't be done until the series gains focus. And to gain focus, it'll have to assess it's goals. If it's to be a niche franchise, then appealing to the most diehard fans and catering to their wishes is a good strategy. But if it wants to be AAA, it's going to have to focus on becoming once again a universally appealing series. Most of the general community have disliked Sonic when he's gone away from his basic gameplay and focused on an abundance of characters and alternative gameplay and heavy emphasis on (poorly written) stories. So relegate them to a side series so that crowd of fans can be pleased and it can serve as a development platform for new game play ideas, etc.

 

...Again, if they want to be a AAA "brand" again like they claim to...  

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 minute ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I absolutely agree that Mania as a 2D entry is not going to revive the brand alone. It's a small budget, side entry thing. 2D games are not AAA mainstream entries anymore. Sonic needs to have an excellent 3D entry in order to truly restore the brand. 

 

But Sonic Team (or whoever continues to develop Sonic games) can learn a lot from Mania in the basic appeal of the Sonic franchise. Even though it was a smaller title, Mania reminded many people in the gaming community why the Sonic franchise was ever successful in the first place.

Intelligently apply that inspiration to the 3D titles and move forward. But this can't be done until the series gains focus. And to gain focus, it'll have to assess it's goals. If it's to be a niche franchise, then appealing to the most diehard fans and catering to their wishes is a good strategy. But if it wants to be AAA, it's going to have to focus on becoming once again a universally appealing series. Most of the general community have disliked Sonic when he's gone away from his basic gameplay and focused on an abundance of characters and alternative gameplay and heavy emphasis on (poorly written) stories. So relegate them to a side series so that crowd of fans can be pleased and it can serve as a development platform for new game play ideas, etc.

 

...Again, if they want to be a AAA "brand" again like they claim to...  

I agree there needs to be more management within Sega. The closet to an AAA title was Sonic World Adventure and even then, it wasn't good enough(not to say the game wasn't great. Just didn't appeal to the mainstream as always).

Quote

But Sonic Team (or whoever continues to develop Sonic games) can learn a lot from Mania in the basic appeal of the Sonic franchise. Even though it was a smaller title, Mania reminded many people in the gaming community why the Sonic franchise was ever successful in the first place.

Yeah...To be made as a quick buck as Sega's new mascot and to have his other side games(Pinball, Drift etc) to be thrown out to capitalize on his success as much as they could.. Doesn't seem to work anymore does it Sega?

I've said it before; There isn't anything wrong with alternate gameplay within the same title. That is why I loved World Adventure. The werehog was risky but overall fleshed out to provide some old-school platforming/beat em up styled gameplay. But if the core game isn't fleshed out it needs to go. Sonic World Adventure was pushing it even though both had lots of depth...Even I can admit it should have been 65/45 split with a less werehog.

However, I quite frankly disagree that World Adventure had an alternative gameplay. It was apart of the game as much as Daytime Sonic. 

 

[TailsTellsTales]

I am very pleased to see that everybody in general can agree that playable characters needs to come back, but how they return is where some disagreements happen. Though the main thing is that they return as playable rather it be in a main game preferably or a side game which I also would not mind since that side game could very well turn into a main game. One thing I strongly would like is for Classic Sonic to be eliminated from 3D games. There is no reason to have 2 Sonic's unless it's some ultimate special thing like Sonic Generations. I am scared that the only playable characters in 3D games will be Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic. I remember seeing the very first video of Sonic Forces before the title name was known and being horrified seeing Classic Sonic appear... "Even heroes need help!". See how messed up that is?!

[RustyRick]

I'm all up for having other characters in the series playable again in a mainstream Sonic title, but execution is definitely a tricky one, given how they need to design them unique in their own regard and have engaging gameplay.

I like that Amy got brought up in the original post as I think she still has potential for a gameplay style that'd be engaging, but the few times she's been playable in a main title with unique abilities didn't really bring out the best results usually. Adventure 1 I think she was really sluggish speed-wise but had some unique skills that were underutilized like the hammer jump and the rotating hammer swing. Adventure 2's multiplayer could count as well but her main thing was that she could use special attacks at lower ring costs. Heroes to me was where I really enjoyed playing as Amy as she could attack enemies normally yet had the forward-moving tornado and brief airtime hovering unique to her, just a shame that the difficulty of her team felt too easy. 
If Amy's gameplay for example would revolve around more traditional platforming while keeping some semblance of speed to her movement, and design enemies so that she can ricochet enemies towards others with her hammer for combo-scoring mechanic that would be something I'd enjoy playing that would fit Amy.

I'm not so sure about other characters for gameplay elements that could be implemented in creative ways unique to them that'd be engaging while keeping the main speed-based focus the series is known for, but I'd clearly like to see characters have a day in the spotlight again in a main title to make them have relevance as Sonic's allies/friends besides as just moral support.

[Salamander]

10 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

The issue? Today's standards/folks are different than in the 80's and 90's. Sega had their own console market. Their new mascot was a smash ,out rivaled Nintendo and beat them...For about a few years or so.

What the fans don't understand is that Sonic's sales was dying after Sonic 1(as was Sega's console market after the genesis). Once Sonic 2 hit; It was too late. Sonic 2 didn't even hit close to the same mark as Sonic 1 did.  S&K3 combined made 4 million. Sonic CD made 1.5 million. Sonic Jam didn't even hit a million.

Compare that to  30 million with Sonic 1?

Where are you getting this "30 million" figure from?  I'm looking around, and I only see 15 million - significantly boosted by the fact that the game was bundled in with the Genesis console itself.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

7 hours ago, FFWF said:

Where are you getting this "30 million" figure from?  I'm looking around, and I only see 15 million - significantly boosted by the fact that the game was bundled in with the Genesis console itself.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic#cite_note-12

I'm counting both the Genesis and Master system all together.

[SpongicX]

11 hours ago, RustyRick said:

I'm all up for having other characters in the series playable again in a mainstream Sonic title, but execution is definitely a tricky one, given how they need to design them unique in their own regard and have engaging gameplay.

I like that Amy got brought up in the original post as I think she still has potential for a gameplay style that'd be engaging, but the few times she's been playable in a main title with unique abilities didn't really bring out the best results usually. Adventure 1 I think she was really sluggish speed-wise but had some unique skills that were underutilized like the hammer jump and the rotating hammer swing. Adventure 2's multiplayer could count as well but her main thing was that she could use special attacks at lower ring costs. Heroes to me was where I really enjoyed playing as Amy as she could attack enemies normally yet had the forward-moving tornado and brief airtime hovering unique to her, just a shame that the difficulty of her team felt too easy. 
If Amy's gameplay for example would revolve around more traditional platforming while keeping some semblance of speed to her movement, and design enemies so that she can ricochet enemies towards others with her hammer for combo-scoring mechanic that would be something I'd enjoy playing that would fit Amy.

I'm not so sure about other characters for gameplay elements that could be implemented in creative ways unique to them that'd be engaging while keeping the main speed-based focus the series is known for, but I'd clearly like to see characters have a day in the spotlight again in a main title to make them have relevance as Sonic's allies/friends besides as just moral support.

I would love to see how Amy would work with gameplay where players can press a button to equip and put away her hammer. Whether she has her hammer out or not  will affect her controls. For instance, while the hammer is not equipped, she could run faster, and jump higher, along with grab onto cliff edges. Having her hammer equipped will slow her down, but give her many unique attacks. Maybe she could strafe or dodgeroll with her hammer out. It would be neat to be able to play as Amy with a combat style similar to the combat in games like Devil May Cry, while being able to put the hammer away during parts that require speed and platforming. I think a mix of Sonic’s adventure gameplay with combat sections would be great for Amy.

[Salamander]

4 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic#cite_note-12

I'm counting both the Genesis and Master system all together.

So, thirty million sales for two different games released bundled together with two different consoles.  And you're quite happy to consider this a like-for-like comparison with subsequent Sonic games?

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

2 hours ago, FFWF said:

So, thirty million sales for two different games released bundled together with two different consoles.  And you're quite happy to consider this a like-for-like comparison with subsequent Sonic games?

You're counting just North American sales. All around it sold 22 million. The Master system within the same year sold 9 million. I'm only counting the sales within that same year upon release.

[Swing]

If their really want to bring in another playable characters besides Sonic, than they have to do this in the style of the Rush Series. And I do not mean the playable style, but just to focus on Sonic and this one specific character. This is why games with more than one playable character are most of the time downright terrible, because they want to bring in everybody's favorite character.

I think for the better we should just be focusing on one gameplay style and not on 100 of others. If they wan't to bring Silver back, than they have to just focus on him + Sonic. Tell a story with him in the centre and create a gameplay style that fits him + Sonic and the story the want to tell. Just focus on him + Sonic, do not bring in 100 of other characters just because Silver is in the game. Do not try to shoehorn in Shadow just for the sake of having him their because Silver is their. Do not try to shoehorn in Knuckles just because Silver is their. Focus just on Silver + Sonic. Only tell a story surrounding those two. Do not try to bring other characters back just because you want to please everybody.

This is the problem with all of those Sonic friend characters. Most of them seem to be on an equal level of importance that writers think that all of them must be a part of the new story. Not every game story needs to have all of your favorite characters. I mean look at Mario and Crash Bandicoot. Not all of their games feature all of their characters. Mario Galaxy has Rosalina as an NPC and Mario Odyssey has Pauline. Heck even Luigi, the second most important character of the entire series, doesn't shows up in every game. Also Crash Bandicoot doesn't really need to have Tiny, Dingodile or Ripper Roo in all of their games.

[knuckles20]

Just because Sonic is the main character it does not mean he’s the only character we are allowed to care for. I didn’t buy that crap when critics were trashing 06 and I’m not buying it now.

Other characters can work if SEGA is willing to put in actual effort. If people complain about them screw them. I had to dealt with Solo Sonic for years and it got dull and frustrating every single game seeing characters that got me into the series being reduced to helpless citizens that can’t do anything without Sonic.

For me at least 2-3 non Sonics is good and no that doesn’t include the Create your own.

[Multikaris]

Fuck, not again!

 

https://lastlifeclub.com/review/sonic-forces-review/

[knuckles20]

1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

Fuck, not again!

 

https://lastlifeclub.com/review/sonic-forces-review/

If they’re talking crap about the other characters just tell me cause I don’t want to give them the satisfaction.

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, knuckles20 said:

If they’re talking crap about the other characters just tell me cause I don’t want to give them the satisfaction.

They are. 

[TailsTellsTales]

23 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

Just because Sonic is the main character it does not mean he’s the only character we are allowed to care for. I didn’t buy that crap when critics were trashing 06 and I’m not buying it now.

Other characters can work if SEGA is willing to put in actual effort. If people complain about them screw them. I had to dealt with Solo Sonic for years and it got dull and frustrating every single same seeing characters that got me into the series being reduced to helpless citizens that can’t do anything without Sonic.

For me at least 2-3 non Sonics is good and no that doesn’t include the Create your own.

I am sure they will answer the call for more playable characters by having 5 playable characters in the next Sonic game which will include Classic Sonic, Dreamcast Sonic, Modern Sonic, Boom Sonic, and Schoolhouse Sonic.

[knuckles20]

Just now, TailsTellsTales said:

I am sure they will answer the call for more playable characters by having 5 playable characters in the next Sonic game which will include Classic Sonic, Dreamcast Sonic, Modern Sonic, Boom Sonic, and Schoolhouse Sonic.

Oh goodie Sonic Generations 3 where Sonic ego is so huge he can only rely on mutliple versions of himself instead of the many people in his own dimension that can hold their own that he pushed off to the cheerleading section.

[dbzfan7]

2 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Oh goodie Sonic Generations 3 where Sonic ego is so huge he can only rely on mutliple versions of himself instead of the many people in his own dimension that can hold their own that he pushed off to the cheerleading section.

Probably what would have happened to Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam if Sega had been making it. We'd have it be Mario & Paper Mario. But despite having Mario team up with himself from another universe, Luigi still gets plenty of time to be of use and is not just shoved to the side.

[TailsTellsTales]

7 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

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