Could the Werehog work in a classic environment?

[KHCast]

He seems at its core fairly basic and simplistic as a character and gameplay extension of 2D sonic. And things like stretchy arms and grabbing enemies and ledges/polls from a distance I think could be interesting additions to the 2D style. Not to mention they could build him to be a faster character compared to in Unleashed.(though in cutscenes we see he's a fast character, so it wouldn't be out of character to make him faster, see runners.)

Maybe he could be a power up or extra super form for classic sonic, so to avoid needing a bunch of story/lore to explain his presence, or be just a extra post game bonus? 

 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

The problem is that the idea of something that stretches out and hooks on to something is a vague enough concept that they'd be better off just making it some sort of grapple/hookshot or something, instead of relating it to a concept nobody liked all that much and would have no good story reason to come back.

[KHCast]

5 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

The problem is that the idea of something that stretches out and hooks on to something is a vague enough concept that they'd be better off just making it some sort of grapple/hookshot or something, instead of relating it to a concept nobody liked all that much and would have no good story reason to come back

I always thought the hate for the werehog mainly stemmed from his sluggish gameplay. It's why there wasn't collective groaning when he showed up in Runners

plus, while the idea of making a grapple power up sounds nice, there's still concepts like climbing on polls and picking up enemies. Seem like features normal classic sonic wouldn't do

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Runners was just a mobile game, though, and it's not like Werehog in that played differently to the other characters of his type at all.

 

In essence the idea of a grappling mechanic that locks onto enemies and environment pieces is fine, but trying to tie it to the werehog specifically would hold it back. It's the same reason there's no reason for a top-to-bottom reimagining of 06. Sure it's not impossible, but the amount of differences would be enough that there's no real reason to tie it to what was in general a failure.

[KHCast]

14 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Runners was just a mobile game, though, and it's not like Werehog in that played differently to the other characters of his type at all.

 

In essence the idea of a grappling mechanic that locks onto enemies and environment pieces is fine, but trying to tie it to the werehog specifically would hold it back. It's the same reason there's no reason for a top-to-bottom reimagining of 06. Sure it's not impossible, but the amount of differences would be enough that there's no real reason to tie it to what was in general a failure.

What about if we pretend Unleashed never happened. With that in mind would the werehog have been something you'd be okay with if he was a 2D game mechanic/extension of classic? Would you have preferred that?

like, even with Unleashed in kind, idk, if we had him as like a level gimmick for one stage, (like say a theoretical  "full moon zone" or something) and occasionally sonic would turn werewolf in that stage. I think it'd be a neat little reference. Still wouldn't dominate the overall game or take much away, but it also could be a good way to try out new things for the classic formula. Wisps came back so why not

[Shaddy Zaphod]

11 minutes ago, KHCast said:

What about if we pretend Unleashed never happened. With that in mind would the werehog have been something you'd be okay with if he was a 2D game mechanic/extension of classic? Would you have preferred that?

I mean, I still don't see a reason for it to be the werehog, since a werewolf stretchy Sonic is kind of a stupid idea regardless of context, but of course people wouldn't be opposed to an idea associated with the franchise's mistakes had said mistakes never happened.

11 minutes ago, KHCast said:

like, even with Unleashed in kind, idk, if we had him as like a level gimmick for one stage, (like say a theoretical  "full moon zone" or something) and occasionally sonic would turn werewolf in that stage. I think it'd be a neat little reference. Still wouldn't dominate the overall game or take much away, but it also could be a good way to try out new things for the classic formula.

Wouldn't it be better to just give a new playable character the ability and let their style of movement permeate throughout the whole game while Sonic and the others retain their movesets?

[KHCast]

Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

Wouldn't it be better to just give a new playable character the ability and let their style of movement permeate throughout the whole game while Sonic and the others retain their movesets?

Wouldn't that just add to the "Sonic's shitty friends" hate to add a new character for this? Seems like either way there'd be backlash. Using for one level the werehog briefly as a way to try out a few new ideas I would think would be the less risky move vs a new character and game built around potential features people may not like 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

The only fuel to the "Sonic's shitty friends" fire is the presence of anyone other than Sonic, Tails and Eggman. Anyone who genuinely believes new or returning characters are an inherently bad thing doesn't deserve to enjoy the games in the first place.

More importantly, that mindset was only bred by characters playing or doing something uncharacteristic of Sonic games, or just plain not being any fun to play in general. I don't think adding a grapple mechanic to one character (ala Speedrunners) would qualify for that position, since it still adds to the precious "momentum-based platforming" that the fanbase endlessly bangs on about. They'd still travel the same levels, just in a slightly different manner, not that different from Knuckles or Tails.

[KHCast]

Picking up enemies and using a stretch mechanic to take out enemies ahead of you is think are mechanics that would need testing before full implementation, as they could be sluggish, or pace breaking, or game breaking(like a lot of the wispons in Forces for example). That's why I say testing before going gun hoe would probably be best. Seriously referencing the werehog for one level isn't gonna kill anyone. If we could get 06 levels in generations without constant bitching, I think we'll live with seeing the werehog ina creative gimmick level built with him and certain features in mind. I just personally wouldn't mind seeing them take another crack at the guy and turn a negative into a positive. You got a neat reference, test for new mechanics, and a unique new level all in one

[Blacklightning]

Just make it Bionic Commando with a rolling jump. Bam.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

7 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Picking up enemies and using a stretch mechanic to take out enemies ahead of you is think are mechanics that would need testing before full implementation, as they could be sluggish, or pace breaking, or game breaking(like a lot of the wispons in Forces for example).

Not if you use the level design to build certain pieces for one character others for another. They did that with Knuckles, after all. It's not like testing if something works right can only fall on the playerbase, either.

8 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Seriously referencing the werehog for one level isn't gonna kill anyone. If we could get 06 levels in generations without constant bitching, I think we'll live with seeing the werehog ina creative gimmick level built with him and certain features in mind. I just personally wouldn't mind seeing them take another crack at the guy and turn a negative into a positive. You got a neat reference, test for new mechanics, and a unique new level all in one

Except there was plenty of confusion regarding Crisis City's inclusion in Generations, just as there would be with the werehog should they bring him back. The only solace was that Crisis City didn't play any different from the other levels in the game, but your idea doesn't have that luxury. If they want to take what worked about it, why take the design that will be most instantly associated with what didn't, instead of largely avoiding any chance of comparison by making it into something new?

[KHCast]

Wouldn't the comparison be for the better to show how it's now a fun and relavent to the series mechanic, therefore not get shit on?

If he's just included for a reference sake I simply don't understand the pushback or confusion. Not everyone hated the werehog as a concept. It's a simple callback. And if you really needed a story reason, just say eggman did some weird shit which triggered something in Sonic in that stage. You don't even need words to show that. Sonic walks into the level, eggman flies by, activates some machine thing which zaps sonic, and the moon pops from behind the clouds turning him into that.

Granted to avoid needing that altogether there's always the multiple characters method, and have a classic game with a bunch of characters playable from throughout the series, so he wouldn't stick out.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

10 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Wouldn't the comparison be for the better to show how it's now a fun and relavent to the series mechanic, therefore not get shit on?

Of course, but that's not going to happen. In people's minds, it's not going to stop being the werehog unless it stops playing like the werehog. And once you're at that point, why bother making it look the same?

11 minutes ago, KHCast said:

If he's just included for a reference sake I simply don't understand the pushback or confusion. Not everyone hated the werehog as a concept. It's a simple callback.

But one that changes the gameplay to something remniscent of something bad, on more than just a baseline aesthetic. Sure, not everyone hated it, but then not everyone hated every decision the games have ever made, but that isn't a good reason to bring back something that was pretty widely considered a bad move just for a reference. You're saying it would work better if Unleashed itself were discarded, but I'm saying that's literally the only way it could work, and since Unleashed does in fact exist, it basically doesn't stand a chance. 

[Osmium]

Isn't this like Ristar's entire point of existing lmao 

This is actually kinda an ironic conversation since the rabbit guy they had in place before Sonic was meant to grab stuff with his ears, but was dumped because the playstyle wasn't fast enough. Guess who the rabbit turned into...Ristar 

[Diogenes]

Sure, it could. Could've worked in 3D, too, if they had actual talent and a goal of making a speedy grappling-hook based platformer with maybe some light combat instead of filler.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

28 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

Isn't this like Ristar's entire point of existing lmao 

Ristar exists? That's news to me. ¦D

Anywho, the Werehog in a 2D Classic style environment would honestly work just fine because all that would really do is turn him into a Freedom Planet character. Let him have simple combat attacks that don't lose momentum, chain rather quickly and can me jumped out of, give him a wall jump alongside his double jump and make it to where you can cancel out of his stretching grapples to slingshot his way across places faster and even pull back while holding to catapult even further while letting him retain the ability to roll and you have the formula for a really fun and interesting playstyle.

So he'd basically be Carol the Wildcat with stretchy arms and no motorcycle. lol

[Sean]

I think the classics ought to stick with the "one-button" philosophy and not get carried away with Advance-like movesets. I don't see the werehog or Advance!Amy working in them very well at all - and I did play and enjoy the Amy in Sonic 1/2 fan hacks but they're not how I want Amy to play in a classic game either.

Plus I don't think the werehog in general really fits the series' general gameplay. The ease of defeating enemies in most Sonic games always amounted to a simple jump or roll attack. Even if you could come up with a really simplistic style for him that involves any form of grappling combat, I have to wonder what the point of it would be.

[StaticMania]

It's weird because all of Amy's moves can be done with one button anyway...

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

3 hours ago, Sean said:

I think the classics ought to stick with the "one-button" philosophy and not get carried away with Advance-like movesets. I don't see the werehog or Advance!Amy working in them very well at all - and I did play and enjoy the Amy in Sonic 1/2 fan hacks but they're not how I want Amy to play in a classic game either.

Plus I don't think the werehog in general really fits the series' general gameplay. The ease of defeating enemies in most Sonic games always amounted to a simple jump or roll attack. Even if you could come up with a really simplistic style for him that involves any form of grappling combat, I have to wonder what the point of it would be.

 Why should "Classic" Sonic stay behind the times? Other platformers have evolved in their movesets even before Sonic came along(Advance series was hitting the gold mine). The "one button" philosophy is the whole reason why getting the emeralds and super emeralds, not only being a poor reward but causes conflict with the gameplay. Restriction should not lead to stagnation especially when you have access to all those buttons(something past games failed to implant). I guess you can map other actions to Up+B or something like that. However, you start to run into the same problem as the modern games before Unleashed. 

To the OP, he would fit very well despite those who dislike him. The werehog already could work similarly like Ristar with some added complexity in combat, exploration and good ol platforming. A Castlevania inspired formula(more so how the enemies are and the levels are structured).  I already am very supportive of the werehog in a Unleashed sequel and/or title so I wouldn't mind. 

The werehog can still have momentum based physics without the spin dash:P

Then you'd really have to use skill on timing your jumps, grapples and all like in Sonic 1.

People make the werehog concept sound like it hurt the franchise when it really didn't. PS2 version did get far less complaints with him(I don't understand) but it was overall mixed feelings. Some deemed it good and other thought it was a detriment. I say part of the problem of that is not many understood how to use his mechanics nor managed his leveling system correctly(HD version). Can't say the same for Unwiished lol. Clearly that version was not up on their priority list. 

Either way, I wouldn't want them to half ass it if it were to happen again. Hashimoto's team had to put a lot of effort into the Werehog because his gameplay required a different mentality upon approach.

 

 

 

[Sean]

I wouldn't be so firmly against giving classic Sonic a more complicated control scheme if someone could give me a good reason why it needs more and more moves, beyond this idea that it's "behind the times" (what the hell does this even mean?) or that it needs to "evolve" (which if I had to guess, people assume means adding more and more things regardless of whether or not those things are necessary or meaningful).

[StaticMania]

Purely from a platforming sense, giving Ristar momentum based movement is basically what the Werehog could be if put in a Classic type game. It can totally work, using air speed to sling across the levels both horizontally and vertically. It could be fun.

 

And Ristar was already certainly creative with its platforming, so now throwing momentum in the mix, they might even have more room for creative platforming.

[Sean]

To me that runs the risk of designing a game heavily in favor of one particular character and making other characters not as useful. You'd have to design levels with those abilities in mind while also balancing the others (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles) to justify the werehog's addition.

[Zaysho]

9 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Why should "Classic" Sonic stay behind the times? Other platformers have evolved in their movesets even before Sonic came along(Advance series was hitting the gold mine). The "one button" philosophy is the whole reason why getting the emeralds and super emeralds, not only being a poor reward but causes conflict with the gameplay. Restriction should not lead to stagnation especially when you have access to all those buttons(something past games failed to implant). I guess you can map other actions to Up+B or something like that. However, you start to run into the same problem as the modern games before Unleashed. 

I'm not sure how classic Sonic would "stay behind the times" if it adhered to a particular philosophy/game design choice. Mania proved it's every bit as viable now as it was in the early 90's especially accompanied by good level design that maximizes the use of Sonic and co.'s base abilities. The Super problem is fixed by assigning the function another face button that isn't used in normal play (since all modern controllers seem to be standardized to four face buttons) or maybe doing "Up+Action" since that doesn't really conflict with any of the current established classic characters that do transform. Limits can lead to creative choices that can enhance that style without making it something else.

That's not to say I'd be opposed to a Werehog-styled character in a Genesis-style setting, but I think if we're going to add characters to that setting, then shouldn't they be expected to play by those rules rather than bending those rules to make it work or "evolve" that specific style? I can at least see mapping his stretchiness to a double-tap ability like Sonic's other friends, and it could be used to grab and scale walls a la Knuckles or grab and homing attack a nearby enemy and propel you forward. Beyond that I'm not sure. Otherwise, sure, if you want to make an Advance game where you can have more actions then that's a cool option, but I can see why some wouldn't see that as necessary when talking about a Genesis type of game.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

46 minutes ago, Sean said:

I wouldn't be so firmly against giving classic Sonic a more complicated control scheme if someone could give me a good reason why it needs more and more moves, beyond this idea that it's "behind the times" (what the hell does this even mean?) or that it needs to "evolve" (which if I had to guess, people assume means adding more and more things regardless of whether or not those things are necessary or meaningful).

I didn't say complicated. Classic Sonic is pretty basic, hell, even Advance 2 Sonic is basic.

He doesn't need the deep Advance mechanics(specifically speaking Sonic Advance 2 and 3) as most of those only fit the Advance games. Classic Sonic still has a lot of potential of what it can introduce in terms of mechanics. Sonic 3/Mania(wanting to keep things fresh) introduced a decent amount of new abilities.

The 3 Elemental Shields are new moves. Insta-Shield is new move. Drop Dash is a little bit of a different beast entirely(also presented as new).

That accumulates to 5 new assets to Sonic's design. However, 3 of those are not equal. Only one shield can be equipped. But here in-lies an issue; Insta-Shield is inaccessible.This isn't a major detriment but I would rather not have this be removed due to a shield replacing the current action. I'd also say this goes for Super Sonic/Hyper Sonic. The entire reason why his implementation was flawed is all due to everything being mapped to one button. Sort of destroying his moveset all for collecting 7 emeralds. 

Mania added a separate button to subside this(this was after the patch). So I don't think the "one button" or "keeping the same moveset" should apply in this era if Sonic himself before added new abilities. Personally, I feel that the shields can be either taken away or streamlined better. Maybe giving him a nerfed Air dash so he can control his mobility more(reducing the air friction). Or better yet; Having certain moves of his have more of an affect. 

Quote

 

beyond this idea that it's "behind the times"

 

I'm saying he can evolve more than what he is now. Classic Sonic clearly is a apart of an era of the past. That is the wonderful novelty of Mania(despite many games before him already doing this so it is no surprise here). Although this formula can only stay similarly for so long until there is a need of fresh ideas to take on. If Mario can change and evolve his gameplay, so can Sonic.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

15 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I'm not sure how classic Sonic would "stay behind the times" if it adhered to a particular philosophy/game design choice. Mania proved it's every bit as viable now as it was in the early 90's especially accompanied by good level design that maximizes the use of Sonic and co.'s base abilities. The Super problem is fixed by assigning the function another face button that isn't used in normal play (since all modern controllers seem to be standardized to four face buttons) or maybe doing "Up+Action" since that doesn't really conflict with any of the current established classic characters that do transform. Limits can lead to creative choices that can enhance that style without making it something else.

That's not to say I'd be opposed to a Werehog-styled character in a Genesis-style setting, but I think if we're going to add characters to that setting, then shouldn't they be expected to play by those rules rather than bending those rules to make it work or "evolve" that specific style? I can at least see mapping his stretchiness to a double-tap ability like Sonic's other friends, and it could be used to grab and scale walls a la Knuckles or grab and homing attack a nearby enemy and propel you forward. Beyond that I'm not sure. Otherwise, sure, if you want to make an Advance game where you can have more actions then that's a cool option, but I can see why some wouldn't see that as necessary when talking about a Genesis type of game.

I didn't say he should go modern. We already have that. I'm saying that future classic titles can partake in new ideas to push the classic formula forward. The previous titles Sonic 1 to Sonic 3k were following this philosophy. 

And It highly depends on your cognitive view on where the Classic formula should stand. 

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That's not to say I'd be opposed to a Werehog-styled character in a Genesis-style setting, but I think if we're going to add characters to that setting, then shouldn't they be expected to play by those rules rather than bending those rules to make it work or "evolve" that specific style?

Keep in mind I wasn't speaking of adding the werehog permanently. That wouldn't make any sense.

He can easily be regulated to a side title or a small part in a main title if Unleashed's lore/continuity ever comes back.

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 Limits can lead to creative choices that can enhance that style without making it something else.

That is not what I saw when I played the classic titles. They were pushing the hardware to it's maximum capabilities so much that the game itself had glitches because of it. Sonic Unleashed would have never been so visually stunning if they kept themselves at a limit despite the cost of framerate. I understand we speak of gameplay styles within the context of this thread but I see this falling inline with it.

This doesn't inherently mean Sonic should always take risk at every given moment. Sometimes being more limiting is good, I agree. 

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Mania proved it's every bit as viable now as it was in the early 90's especially accompanied by good level design that maximizes the use of Sonic and co.'s base abilities.

Ehhh...Tails does not get nearly enough focus on his levels, nor Knuckles compared to 3K. Still on the fence that Knuckles and Tails shouldn't still have their base abilities from over 20 years ago. Doesn't really make that much sense to me other than some nostalgia..

44 minutes ago, Sean said:

To me that runs the risk of designing a game heavily in favor of one particular character and making other characters not as useful. You'd have to design levels with those abilities in mind while also balancing the others (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles) to justify the werehog's addition.

Knuckes and Tails are easy throwaways if they keep them the same(Wasted space at this point.). Fans seem to be fine with them anyways so making the werehogs gameplay integrated into the classic style while reusing assets can definitely work. Or like I mentioned above; Make his role have depth but smaller. It's just Ristar-esque sequel with added combat. Doesn't seem very difficult to design when you have a template to use. 

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Purely from a platforming sense, giving Ristar momentum based movement is basically what the Werehog could be if put in a Classic type game. It can totally work, using air speed to sling across the levels both horizontally and vertically. It could be fun.

 

And Ristar was already certainly creative with its platforming, so now throwing momentum in the mix, they might even have more room for creative platforming.

Ristar is who I loved to play more almost more than Sonic because of the challenge and awesome momentum it had in his platforming. Shame Sega couldn't do a sequel for him. 

Speaking of which...If you love platformers, I highly recommend Dynamite Headdy. That game was said to be by critics, a better platformer than Sonic. Except it never reach mainstream so RIP critics...