Sonic Forces Reviews Thread

[KHCast]

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The above is a response to that, it is hypocritical to state that people are avoiding criticisms while also stating that I shouldn't have to say anything positive.

See, no ones doing this. We're(or at least I'm) bringing up the issues and maybe wondering how the people loving the game are fine with them(as I rarely see people bring up the level design being a step back, classic Sonic's weight, objectively bad downgrades). No one is forcing them to dislike it or mention them all the time, but asking them how they work around those issues and see more in the game is perfectly fair.

3 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

The game might have basic level design but it actually has divergence in paths(with a good portion of them being 3D) and doesn't rely on 2D as much as the other games did.

Paths that lead immediately back to the main one, over abundance of 2D(especially with the extra acts), no drift, short levels, yeah this definitely is the worst boost game for me. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, KHCast said:

See, no ones doing this. We're(or at least I'm) bringing up the issues and maybe wondering how the people loving the game are fine with them(as I rarely see people bring up the level design being a step back, classic Sonic's weight, objectively bad downgrades). No one is forcing them to dislike it or mention them all the time, but asking them how they work around those issues and see more in the game is perfectly fair.

I'm not saying that isn't fair. I'm simply saying if you're going to ask people to accept the criticisms, or explain how they can work around them, it shouldn't that difficult for others to do the same in terms of looking at what the game does right. 

The level design is a step back, definitely, but for me personally when I got the hang of Avatar and Modern, I've been able to take the level design as really replayable. I've found myself playing something like Egg Gate or Network Terminal because I just find them really fun to blast through. I'm not saying they're as good or as detailed as something like Generations, but they're pretty fun to blast through to witness the spectacle and to grab collectables. There's been very few levels of Forces in terms of Modern and Avatar that have annoyed me much and honestly, while I'd love for the level design to be more fleshed out, I still find them relatively fun to run through, especially when you come to grips with their mechanics and understand how to use them to make your own shortcuts and such.

Classic I can't really defend. I dislike his levels as much as everyone else here has. His momentum is godawful, it feels random as fuck, he falls like a rock, his levels aren't incredibly fun and I'm just thankful that Avatar and Modern's levels outweigh his big time. They aren't actively awful to run through, but they sure aren't fun either. It really just comes down to "ugh, just run through this quickly so I can get to what i care about". The biggest shame is Classic's level design is actually pretty decent too. There's some nicely hidden secrets that I've found on multiple replays of the level. It just sucks he controls so badly.

[KHCast]

14 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

And frankly, I think you're the one grasping at straws if you truly think the only good aspects of the game was just "a few music tracks" and "decent customization". There were far more, let it be good concepts, ideas, or things that were actually done in the game.

I don't have to give praise to what it "could have been" or small little additions to the gameplay if I still didn't enjoy my time with it. If my positives aren't fitting your standard, well, tough shit, some people just aren't into the thing and have issues with it and don't see those positives(or see them as anything to write home about) or . just like there are some that like if and don't see problems so aren't obligated to complain about things they don't personally see, I don't have to give praise to things that didn't impact my play time in any good ways. If the overall modern gameplay was uneventful and not fun to me, I don't /need/ to bring up the air dash as a good thing, when I wasn't at all feeling it did much for me.

[Sonikko]

18 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Except the point raised above is literally "I don't have to talk about positives to lay out my negatives". The above is a response to that, it is hypocritical to state that people are avoiding criticisms while also stating that I shouldn't have to say anything positive. I never said the majority here was doing that, all I said is a lot of people here stated the criticisms point earlier in this topic in regards to people disregarding Polygon's review. That isn't stating everyone did that, more rather people should be keeping that balanced mindset in mind if they're going to tell people to accept criticisms. 

And you're really not giving a lot of credit to Forces if you're really going to claim the only actual positives to get out of the game is "oh well that track is nice, or good or whatever". It goes a lot more deeper than just looking at a few tracks. Positives for a game can literally run as deep as looking at core elements and concepts that's gone into the game, ideas that were actually pretty good and maybe failed in it's execution, and more. It's easy to say "Well Infinite's just a shitty edgelord, what a shit character" and it's more difficult to actually look into the ideas given to you through the game and it's content and see what could've worked and what doesn't work. 

Tails is a prime example because of this game. Tails doesn't work in this game because while the core idea of him having to go solo and find Sonic without the help of the resistance and basically getting hit extremely hard by what actively is the supposed death of his best friend who he's been with for the majority of his life, but the game ends up flanderising him and robbing him of his agency to give Classic a purpose. The idea of Tails working solo is a good idea and concept, and having to deal with the grief of his best friend possibly dying adds an arc to his character. But making him useless, and forcing him to just act as mission control for Classic who likely was shoved in for no reason means the execution of said arc and idea was bad.

As a Tails fan myself, I know if that had been given focus and Tails had been given his usual personality back, I probably would've ended up loving the plot point because it's an interesting idea for Tails that hasn't been given much focus and had potential to expand his character a bit more similar to SA1 when he fought Eggman solo. Now if I just said to SEGA, "Oh, Tails is fucked, please stop fucking him up", then I'm not really saying what I liked or disliked about him here and where the execution went wrong.

There's plenty of points that could be talked about the positive. The avatar system having been well done and how it could be expanded in a future title.

Another point is as I said, the dialogue, which is far more than the standard affair of really bad lines and jokes. The majority of people I know on here who like Forces have said Sonic's dialogue, as well as the rest of the characters' personalities are pretty much on point and have been the best they've been since Unleashed. That's another positive point that could be discussed as well as the characters who haven't been done as well.

In terms of gameplay, Modern's new additions like air boost and such were actually pretty fun additions, and I know I've had fun figuring out certain points to use it to speed up my times through the levels. The level design itself shows ideas of what could've been good if the other aspects hadn't been messed up as much. I think as much as criticism is needed, it's important to know one's strengths as well to actually state what was done well and what wasn't. 

And frankly, I think you're the one grasping at straws if you truly think the only good aspects of the game was just "a few music tracks" and "decent customization". There were far more, let it be good concepts, ideas, or things that were actually done in the game.

I appreciate your detailed post, I don't know if you ever read any of mine, but I spent months, since the first gameplay release analyzing this game, I have a Youtube channel about stuff like this and I just assumed everyone here read some of my rants before, since I do that quite often. So please don't accuse me of gasping at straws, 'cause I've gone in great detail, complete with video evidence, pictures, schemes, level design examples and all that nice stuff in the past.

As I said, I broke this game down into pieces, everything about it, the graphics, the story, the music, the level design, the gameplay and all that and anyone here can testify.

I know what I'm talking about, not all of my posts can be 800 characters long. All I see worth praising here is a few music tracks, 'cause the "gameplay" is almost completely automated, the 3D sections are inexistent except for Mortar Canyon which can either be easily broken with air boost, or it's just a very long homing attack section from beginning to end.

The physics are completely inexistent, as a consequence the level design is very blocky and flat, every slope doesn't have any real meaning since the absence of physics means it could be flat terrain and the character would react the same way.

The Wisps capsules for the boost are a stupid decision, since you're pretty much assured to be able to boost constantly, so it just means you're left running without boost for ~10 seconds at the beginning and the ending of each stage.

The avatar is a bad idea in my opinion, and I've stated so since the beginning. It breaks the design convenctions of Sonic characters, the body proportions are all wrong, and as I expected, the customization doesn't go far enough to make them stand out one from the other. They're overdesigned, which is a thing with every character creator. Clothes and accessories look out of place with Sonic characters, they make the designs clunky and it was something bound to happen with a character creator.

The simple fact that they had to patch in the "recover rings after being hit mechanic" after launch speaks tons about their incompetence. That is a thing that should be decided in the pre-production phase, at the design table. It affects difficulty and game design as a whole, and changing your mind at the last minute means you have no idea what you're doing with your own game.

The 3D sections as I already said are either non existent or completely straight/automated, or require no input from the player other than "press X to boost". The 2D sections are either automated aswell, or very blocky, reminiscent of Colours and Lost World. That is the antithesis of Sonic level design, just take a look at Sonic 2,3,&K or Mania. Chemical Plant classic is the worst offender, the absence of physics and the lame level design outright killed what was enjoyable about the original stage in the first place. Not being able to pass the first ramp if not when rolling is outright embarassing and the game should have never left their offices in this state.

The Avatar gameplay is a dumb idea, it makes no sense and it's a clear sympthom of them not having any idea on how to handle the franchise anymore. It's combat focused.

In a Sonic game. Really?

When did that ever work well? In Heroes? In Shadow the Hedgehog? In Sonic 2006? In Sonic and the Black Knight? In Sonic Unleashed? In Rise of Lyric?

When?

The Avatar is really clunky to control, the weapons are an insta-win button, the level design is just as linear, limited, boring, uninspired as it is in the modern stages, when you're not spamming the attack button the game plays itself, and even when you're "attacking enemies" it never feels like you're accomplishing anything, since they're just props that stand there waiting to be killed.

This game treats the users like they're dumb, incapable of learning how to play and doing that job in their place.

Many sections have a "here let me do it for you" trigger, be it a very long lightspeed dash trail, or a boostpad, or a chain of springs, or hidden springs, or just flat terrain with nothing to interact with.

All of this is just speaking of gameplay, and I'm not over, I just scratched the surface.

I don't feel like going in detail with the story, I'll just say that most of the lines made me literally cringe and I can't take them seriously.

I can't take this game seriously.

"I AM NOT WEAAAAAAK UAAAAAAAARGH"

"Nothing about this is good vector, that's why it's called war".

This is just embarassing. I have no other words to say it.

The music sounds generic. Most of the tracks are unfitting with the stages they are coupled with, it's almost like Ohtani and the other composers had no visual indication of what the stages they were working on looked like. Ghost Town and Death Egg being the worst offenders. The main instrument in the modern songs is grating on the ears, it's not pleasing, and all of them feel samey. The avatar songs are good for the most part, a couple of them being an exception.

Some of the visuals look nice, others look awful, it's highly inconsistent in this department. Animations especially are jarring.

I have nothing positive to say about this game other than: it has a few nice tracks and Egg Gate looks nice. That's it. And I've given you a valid motivation as to why.

[Osmium]

Honestly the only thing I can really say I like about Forces is Sonic's characterization in the cutscenes. That's literally it. 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

3 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Paths that lead immediately back to the main one,

We aren't talking about the depths of paths here. In a basic explanation, all sonic games do that. Colors had tons of pathways. 

The content of said pathways? Not very much.

Quote

no drift, short levels, yeah this definitely is the worst boost game for me. 

I don't disagree that Forces is one of the bad boost gameplay iterations. Colors, despite the good music, was far too gimmicky and not-Sonic at all(which resulted in so much block level design). Forces at least acts like a Sonic game.

Drift might as well be non-existent lol. It was so forced in the game and provided you with little use of it.

[Sonikko]

2 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

We aren't talking about the depths of paths here. In a basic explanation, all sonic games do that. Colors had tons of pathways. 

The content of said pathways? Not very much.

I don't disagree that Forces is one of the bad boost gameplay iterations. Colors, despite the good music, was far too gimmicky and not-Sonic at all(which resulted in so much block level design). Forces at least acts like a Sonic game.

Drift might as well be non-existent lol. It was so forced in the game and provided you with little use of it.

Forces is Colors lite. The level design philosophy is the same, you're just playing less of it.

How is Forces good and Colours is "not Sonic"?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

3 minutes ago, KHCast said:

I don't have to give praise to what it "could have been" or small little additions to the gameplay if I still didn't enjoy my time with it. If my positives aren't fitting your standard, well, tough shit, some people just aren't into the thing and have issues with it and don't see those positives(or see them as anything to write home about) or . just like there are some that like if and don't see problems so aren't obligated to complain about things they don't personally see, I don't have to give praise to things that didn't impact my play time in any good ways.

And in the same way, people don't have to pay attention to criticisms that didn't impact their playtime in anyway. One of the points here that has been brought up is there isn't enough to talk about in terms of positives and yet the stuff that could actively be talked about such as the concepts that worked, dialogue that worked well, gameplay aspects that were nicely implemented etc. This is what I mean by looking at it objectively, it's a case of throwing aside your personal viewpoint to look at what was done well and what wasn't, and in terms of trying to tell SEGA what they've done horribly wrong, objectively is the way you have to go unfortunately.

Even if it didn't impact your play experience, things like character personalities being back on point after years of being flanderised and reduced heavily is a good point, regardless of personal experience. Having them actually display more personality is even a better one considering a lot of it in the past few years has been copy and pasted goofiness and over the top flanderisation of one or two traits for example.

5 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I appreciate your detailed post, I don't know if you ever read any of mine, but I spent months, since the first gameplay release analyzing this game, I have a Youtube channel about stuff like this and I just assumed everyone here read some of my rants before, since I do that quite often. So please don't accuse me of gasping at straws, 'cause I've gone in great detail, complete with video evidence, pictures, schemes, level design examples and all that nice stuff in the past.

I in fact hadn't read many of the posts/seen videos because of the fact I'd been sticking away from the vast majority of Forces discussions on this board. That really isn't some to assume people would know. 

All I'll say looking at your post is that yes, there's negatives here and I'm not going to disagree with you on that. I've said as such that there's negatives here for months on end. The level design is bad, and is clearly focused on Colours when it really shouldn't have been. Wisp locations is stupid and shows how much the level design needs work. Stuff like dropping rings, yes should've been handled in pre-production, but it has been patched in and works fine, so frankly, I see it as a non-issue. Yes, it talks about SEGA's pre-production efforts when this has happened in Lost World before, but I don't particularly care when it's not an issue I had to deal with. 

But the thing is, a lot of your points is either subjective, or it's wrong. For one, the avatar is not based around combat. At all, and I'm saying this with numerous replays of avatar missions under my belt. You can blast through the majority of the enemies the same way you can with Modern because the majority of the Wispons deal one shot blows. A good few of them even act as ranged weapons so you can blast through if you wish. Saying Avatar is mainly combat based and is even to the level of Black Knight, Unleashed, and Heroes is a really big misjudgement, especially when enemies got down in one hit similar to the homing attack. 

I mean fair enough, it's all your opinion and you've clearly done the research to back that all up. That's perfectly fine. It doesn't really change the fact a lot of people have been finding positives in the game beyond a few music tracks, even if it is concepts and ideas that went wrong. You say a lot of the lines made you chringe, and meanwhile there's plenty of others here who've said the characterisation and dialogue except for a few exceptions have all been a pretty good point of the game. If that's really all you can find positive with the game, that's fine, you've stated your reasons why, but a good chunk of all that is subjective negatives and ones I've actually seen plenty of people disagree with.

[Sonikko]

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I in fact hadn't read many of the posts/seen videos because of the fact I'd been sticking away from the vast majority of Forces discussions on this board. That really isn't some to assume people would know. 

All I'll say looking at your post is that yes, there's negatives here and I'm not going to disagree with you on that. I've said as such that there's negatives here for months on end. The level design is bad, and is clearly focused on Colours when it really shouldn't have been. Wisp locations is stupid and shows how much the level design needs work. Stuff like dropping rings, yes should've been handled in pre-production, but it has been patched in and works fine, so frankly, I see it as a non-issue. Yes, it talks about SEGA's pre-production efforts when this has happened in Lost World before, but I don't particularly care when it's not an issue I had to deal with. 

But the thing is, a lot of your points is either subjective, or it's wrong. For one, the avatar is not based around combat. At all, and I'm saying this with numerous replays of avatar missions under my belt. You can blast through the majority of the enemies the same way you can with Modern because the majority of the Wispons deal one shot blows. A good few of them even act as ranged weapons so you can blast through if you wish. Saying Avatar is mainly combat based and is even to the level of Black Knight, Unleashed, and Heroes is a really big misjudgement, especially when enemies got down in one hit similar to the homing attack. 

I mean fair enough, it's all your opinion and you've clearly done the research to back that all up. That's perfectly fine. It doesn't really change the fact a lot of people have been finding positives in the game beyond a few music tracks, even if it is concepts and ideas that went wrong. You say a lot of the lines made you chringe, and meanwhile there's plenty of others here who've said the characterisation and dialogue except for a few exceptions have all been a pretty good point of the game. If that's really all you can find positive with the game, that's fine, you've stated your reasons why, but a good chunk of all that is subjective negatives and ones I've actually seen plenty of people disagree with.

It is focused on combat. That's why it has a weapon. That's why there are rows of enemies you have to defeat. If you take that out, there is literally no gameplay left for the avatar.

It doesn't even go that fast, so it doesn't have that "thrilling high speed action" modern Sonic has.

That's not subjective, that's a fact. And the combat is mindless, just as every other aspect of this game.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

It is focused on combat. That's why it has a weapon. That's why there are rows of enemies you have to defeat. If you take that out, there is literally no gameplay left for the avatar.

It doesn't even go that fast, so it doesn't have that "thrilling high speed action" modern Sonic has.

That's not subjective, that's a fact. And the combat is mindless, just as every other aspect of this game.

And yet a lot of the avatar's replayability isn't focused on combat but using the wispons' different abilities to explore new pathways and routes through the level. There is only one portion of the game that I remember you're forced to do actual combat and that's the final portion of Stage 24 where you need to destroy two waves of Eggman robots. Other than that, you can literally bypass every segment of combat and play it like a normal Modern stage. It doesn't have the boost, but is decently fast enough. For something that's combat based, it's odd how there's only one segment of one stage that actively forces you to do combat.

[Osmium]

9 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Even if it didn't impact your play experience, things like character personalities being back on point after years of being flanderised and reduced heavily is a good point, regardless of personal experience. Having them actually display more personality is even a better one considering a lot of it in the past few years has been copy and pasted goofiness and over the top flanderisation of one or two traits for example.

Even then, it's only really Sonic that's good here. Eggman is strangely bland, Tails' wimpiness is really exaggerated, and there's not enough shown of anyone else to get a good feel of them, except for Knuckles who seems a little too commanding for how I think of him, but maybe that's just me. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, ShroomZed said:

Even then, it's only really Sonic that's good here. Eggman is strangely bland, Tails' wimpiness is really exaggerated, and there's not enough shown of anyone else to get a good feel of them, except for Knuckles who seems a bit too authoritarian for what I think of him, but maybe that's just me. 

Sonic, Shadow, Amy and Silver all have their own personalities back in some way. Amy is nowhere near the Sonic-obsessed version that's been played up over the last few games, instead acting a bit more like Boom's version. Knuckles isn't really authoritarian. He's serious yes but there's various points he has some funny moments, including knocking off the avatar accidentally, telling him to just follow Sonic, telling Charmy that he somehow found use for him when Charmy tries to insult the avatar and other such moments. Amy even says in one of the world-map conversations that Knuckles isn't going anywhere near the Death Egg because while he's a good leader, he'd get easily distracted and angry with something.

Shadow is the first time I've enjoyed him in ages. Not only does he get a good few lines, but he shows some clear concern for Omega and Rouge here, enough to the point Infinite's method of screwing with him was forcing him to retrieve Omega's destroyed body with Rouge and then having both of them turn on him mid-level. Eggman, while not as fun as Boom or LW for example has at least gone back to SA levels of competence and being an actual villain. I do agree that he goes too serious here, and would've loved seeing more of his egotistical bombastic personality here, but the competence and serious attitude was at least in the series before. Silver, while not getting a ton of focus still has aspects of his original personality too, stuff like being an optimist but also believing that they need to begin work on fixing the problem themselves instead of just hoping for Sonic to save them etc. 

There is characters that still need a lot of work, definitely. Rouge and Tails absolutely, Eggman as well needs some of his fun back to mix with his competence as that's always what made Eggman stand out above the rest. But it's a good first step and something I absolutely want Sonic Team to keep working on. It's nowhere near the levels of say Ian Flynn, but it's a damn good improvement over what we had IMO.

[Sonikko]

14 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

And yet a lot of the avatar's replayability isn't focused on combat but using the wispons' different abilities to explore new pathways and routes through the level. There is only one portion of the game that I remember you're forced to do actual combat and that's the final portion of Stage 24 where you need to destroy two waves of Eggman robots. Other than that, you can literally bypass every segment of combat and play it like a normal Modern stage. It doesn't have the boost, but is decently fast enough. For something that's combat based, it's odd how there's only one segment of one stage that actively forces you to do combat.

You're just proving my point of how unfocused this whole mess is.

The avatar's gameplay is obviously plasmed around combat, yet it's almost always optional, the other thing it has going for is Wisp powers that are tied to the Wispon they're currently carrying (so it's still someway tied to the combat) so that you can "open up" different pathways that more often than not are either automatic (electric wip) or are nothing more than a 2 seconds deviation from the main path.

So it's just Sonic Colours with a weapon and combat except not really 'cause you can skip it but you can't use all the Wisps at once 'cause they're tied to the weapon since combat is the main point of it.

(That sentence is confusing on purpose btw.)

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

You're just proving my point of how unfocused this whole mess is.

The avatar's gameplay is obviously plasmed around combat, yet it's almost always optional, the other thing it has going for is Wisp powers that are tied to the Wispon they're currently carrying (so it's still someway tied to the combat) so that you can "open up" different pathways that more often than not are either automatic (electric wip) or are nothing more than a 2 seconds deviation from the main path.

So it's just Sonic Colours with a weapon and combat except not really 'cause you can skip it but you can't use all the Wisps at once 'cause they're tied to the weapon since combat is the main point of it.

(That sentence is confusing on purpose btw.

Confusing or not, it doesn't change the fact that Avatar's gameplay wasn't hindered by combat. Even if it's light combat systems, I'd take that and playing through more Modern-styled levels as opposed to something like the Werehog or Shadow. That's what avatar ends up feeling like to me, Modern levels with a bit more exploration to them, and I'll take that over using weapons to meander through a level. 

[Sonikko]

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Confusing or not, it doesn't change the fact that Avatar's gameplay wasn't hindered by combat. Even if it's light combat systems, I'd take that and playing through more Modern-styled levels as opposed to something like the Werehog or Shadow. That's what avatar ends up feeling like to me, Modern levels with a bit more exploration to them, and I'll take that over using weapons to meander through a level. 

It's not as bad as =/= good or ideal.

Just because it doesn't suck as bad it doesn't mean it's acceptable.

And exploration? Where? The avatar stages are as linear as the modern ones in 3D, your character is just slower.

If you've got any video evidence of this "exploration" post it.

[Wraith]

AS someone who's' played this game and doesn't really want anything back from it and is more convinced they need to throw most of it out and start from scratch, I don't see any obligation to meet the game halfway on anything aside from maybe the vaguest of they had, and at that point you pretty much are throwing everything out and starting over.

The extended cast is a good example. On the surface it seems like maybe they're used more often, but most of them are out of character or barely used more than they were in Generations. The game picks the laziest ways to just tell you they're doing shit without any effort being done to show you they're doing it. If Generations had been exactly the same but thrown around some text or voice lines aying that the other characters were helping push back the time eater, would that really have been enugh for you guys? would it really be worth patting them on the back for?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Sonikko said:

It's not as bad as =/= good or ideal.

Just because it doesn't suck as bad it doesn't mean it's acceptable.

And exploration? Where? The avatar stages are as linear as the modern ones in 3D, your character is just slower.

If you've got any video evidence of this "exploration" post it.

Considering a ton of the collectables require you using different Wisp abilities to access higher above areas, yes, there's some exploration. Not as much as I'd want, but there's more there than what Modern levels provide. The point you're trying to prove is that objectively, Avatar levels are combat based despite the fact combat has little to no focus. That can speak about Sonic Team's focus in terms of what they were going for, but the levels work fine as light combat levels based around Modern gameplay. The controls aren't as tight as I'd like them to be, but regardless of that, they're decent levels to run through and could work if given more time and expansion, the same way Modern and his additions could work with time and expansion as well.

If you subjectively dislike the avatar and it's gameplay, that's fine, whatever. Others find potential in the levels and enjoyed a great deal of them. You're arguing that they're objectively combat stages and that it's a stupid idea despite the fact combat has little to no focus in the game itself and now have switched that to Sonic Team being unfocused on combat that you don't want in the game to begin with. 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

56 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

That is the antithesis of Sonic level design, just take a look at Sonic 2,3,&K or Mania.

Are you speaking how the game shouldn't have as much automation as the 2D titles? Regardless, that will always happen. 3D titles can achieve far more than a 2D game.

Quote

The 3D sections as I already said are either non existent or completely straight/automated, or require no input from the player other than "press X to boost"

Yes indeed. Playing the game regularly without any attempts to use the mechanics doesn't require a whole bunch of inputs from the player(a lot of the stages at least). 

Unless you're trying to speedrun through the stage using everything at you're disposal.

Either way, you'd be close on the money here.

Quote

I have a Youtube channel about stuff like this and I just assumed everyone here read some of my rants before, since I do that quite often.

Shameless plug. 

Speaking of your videos;

The Unleashed video wasn't a proper representation since you used Unleashed Project(which uses Generations physics aka far easier to handle). in the slightest. 

56 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

The avatar is a bad idea in my opinion, and I've stated so since the beginning.

Disagree. Avatar was a great idea as it actually did something for the other fans who liked creating original characters. How it was implemented could be argued.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Jar Jar Analysis 1138
Meme didn't register

[Sonikko]

5 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Considering a ton of the collectables require you using different Wisp abilities to access higher above areas, yes, there's some exploration. Not as much as I'd want, but there's more there than what Modern levels provide. The point you're trying to prove is that objectively, Avatar levels are combat based despite the fact combat has little to no focus. That can speak about Sonic Team's focus in terms of what they were going for, but the levels work fine as light combat levels based around Modern gameplay. The controls aren't as tight as I'd like them to be, but regardless of that, they're decent levels to run through and could work if given more time and expansion, the same way Modern and his additions could work with time and expansion as well.

If you subjectively dislike the avatar and it's gameplay, that's fine, whatever. Others find potential in the levels and enjoyed a great deal of them. You're arguing that they're objectively combat stages and that it's a stupid idea despite the fact combat has little to no focus in the game itself and now have switched that to Sonic Team being unfocused on combat that you don't want in the game to begin with. 

If this is not being combat focused, then I don't know what is.

There is literally nothing else to do in that stage, other than hold a button to let the game play itself while you watch the characters move along a long trail of rings.

Oh and the burst Wisp is there so that you can just mindless spam the Wisp button until you hit those dash rings I guess.

That's the alternative, the main course is still combat focused. And that's not the only stage designed like that.

3 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Are you speaking how the game shouldn't have as much automation as the 2D titles? Regardless, that will always happen. 3D titles can achieve far more than a 2D game.

Yes indeed. Playing the game regularly without any attempts to use the mechanics doesn't require a whole bunch of inputs from the player(a lot of the stages at least). 

Unless you're trying to speedrun through the stage using everything at you're disposal.

Either way, you'd be close on the money here.

Shameless plug. 

Speaking of your videos;

The Unleashed video wasn't a proper representation since you used Unleashed Project(which uses Generations physics aka far easier to handle). in the slightest. 

Disagree. Avatar was a great idea as it actually did something for the other fans who liked creating original characters. How it was implemented could be argued.

"Hey the game plays itself but you can jump over this dashpad so that's something".

Also shameless plug what, I was just pointing out that I am not talking out of my ass, I didn't post any link to my videos and you mentioning them is highly off topic.

And if you actually paid attention to what I said in that video, using the Generations physics was part of my point in the first place, since a big part of the difficulty in Unleashed came from it being sub 20fps and having really bad controls.

Other than that the game has very little to offer.

 

[Osmium]

4 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Shameless plug. 

Well that's a bit rude isn't it? He's just explaining he's elaborated on all this stuff in the past. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

If this is not being combat focused, then I don't know what is.

There is literally nothing else to do in that stage, other than hold a button to let the game play itself while you watch the characters move along a long trail of rings.

Oh and the burst Wisp is there so that you can just mindless spam the Wisp button until you hit those dash rings I guess.

That's the alternative, the main course is still combat focused. And that's not the only stage designed like that.

Yeah, the reason that doesn't really stick in my mind is because of the fact the enemies take much less effort to take down. I see something focused on combat being like Unleashed or Heroes where you actively have to keep hitting enemies with health bars and spend a while taking them down before being allowed to move on. I don't see heavy combat focus when all you're doing is insta-killing robots that stop you for about three seconds at best.

[Sonikko]

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Yeah, the reason that doesn't really stick in my mind is because of the fact the enemies take much less effort to take down. I see something focused on combat being like Unleashed or Heroes where you actively have to keep hitting enemies with health bars and spend a while taking them down before being allowed to move on. I don't see heavy combat focus when all you're doing is insta-killing robots that stop you for about three seconds at best.

So it being combat focused is subjective too? How do you even judge a game if everything boils down to opinions and no standards are ever set?

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

7 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Also shameless plug what, I was just pointing out that I am not talking out of my ass, I didn't post any link to my videos and you mentioning them is highly off topic.

I was joking with you. Just forgot to add the spice.

Right, back on topic

EDIT: It wasn't simply "jumping over a boost pad". If you know, you yourself actually watched it it was more than that. But I've already said I've largely agreed with you.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Sonikko said:

So it being combat focused is subjective too? How do you even judge a game if everything boils down to opinions and no standards are ever set?

I wouldn't say it's all subjective, but I hardly consider being stopped for three seconds and moving on, or better yet, moving completely around the combat as combat focused. If you're going to be combat focused, you sort of need to do that, consistently focus on combat and have that be the focus of the gameplay style, not three second segments that can be skipped completely. Again, the only combat segments I can think of that is actively forced and make you go through it to progress is the end of Stage 24. I'm not even making a point here, I genuinely can't remember any other portions that force you to stop and use combat to progress.

In which case, you're also the one who brought up the comparison to RoL, Heroes, Unleashed etc as a reason why it shouldn't have that focus to begin with, so why are you now trying to prove that it's a bad thing that the combat isn't even that heavy of a focus?

[Sonikko]

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I wouldn't say it's all subjective, but I hardly consider being stopped for three seconds and moving on, or better yet, moving completely around the combat as combat focused. If you're going to be combat focused, you sort of need to do that, consistently focus on combat and have that be the focus of the gameplay style, not three second segments that can be skipped completely. Again, the only combat segments I can think of that is actively forced and make you go through it to progress is the end of Stage 24. I'm not even making a point here, I genuinely can't remember any other portions that force you to stop and use combat to progress.

In which case, you're also the one who brought up the comparison to RoL, Heroes, Unleashed etc as a reason why it shouldn't have that focus to begin with, so why are you now trying to prove that it's a bad thing that the combat isn't even that heavy of a focus?

Everything in this game lasts less than 3 seconds, anything that requires human input is so easy and instant.

The same goes for combat.

Combat being fast and easy doesn't make the game not focused on it. There are plenty of instances where you have or are encouraged to stop and kill all the enemies, either to unlock pathways or to make collectibles appear.