Sonic Forces Reviews Thread

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, FriesWithoutKetchup said:

Don't some of you guys ever get tired of being so angry about Forces? X_X I'd find this constant negativity exhausting as hell.

I'm not angry, just disappointed that the series I used to love has come to this.

It's very obvious to me that Sonic Team isn't what it used to be and never will be again. Sure, there are potentially more Mania sequels, but they're made by another team on a job-by-job basis. There's no real guarantee that Whitehead and his team will continue to be called upon by Sega to make more games. 

I'm really put off by Sonic Team's own work, and right now the only redeemable part of the franchise for me (more Mania games) isn't even guaranteed to be an ongoing thing. So yeah, I'm really disappointed that this is the state of Sonic now.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Super Mechanio said:

I'm not angry, just disappointed that the series I used to love has come to this.

It's very obvious to me that Sonic Team isn't what it used to be and never will be again. Sure, there are potentially more Mania sequels, but they're made by another team on a job-by-job basis. There's no real guarantee that Whitehead and his team will continue to be called upon by Sega to make more games. 

I'm really distraught with Sonic Team's own work, and right now the only redeemable part of the franchise for me (more Mania games) isn't even guaranteed to be an ongoing thing. So yeah, I'm really disappointed that this is the state of Sonic now.

I'm not sure I'd say that. If only because Generations is a thing that happened after Colours. Unless you dislike the boost formula I guess, but even with Forces' average reviews, Sonic Team will likely compare that to Mania and Gens and have to figure out what exactly went wrong here (Namely, focusing on Colours' level design for starters).

[Meta77]

24 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Considering a ton of the collectables require you using different Wisp abilities to access higher above areas, yes, there's some exploration. Not as much as I'd want, but there's more there than what Modern levels provide. The point you're trying to prove is that objectively, Avatar levels are combat based despite the fact combat has little to no focus. That can speak about Sonic Team's focus in terms of what they were going for, but the levels work fine as light combat levels based around Modern gameplay. The controls aren't as tight as I'd like them to be, but regardless of that, they're decent levels to run through and could work if given more time and expansion, the same way Modern and his additions could work with time and expansion as well.

If you subjectively dislike the avatar and it's gameplay, that's fine, whatever. Others find potential in the levels and enjoyed a great deal of them. You're arguing that they're objectively combat stages and that it's a stupid idea despite the fact combat has little to no focus in the game itself and now have switched that to Sonic Team being unfocused on combat that you don't want in the game to begin with. 

I loved the avatar and still love their stages the most. To see my little oc fly around the stage and use different classes and weapons is fun. Ive been twitting and emailing sega to tell them how fun it was and hope to see more of it in the future.

[Dr. Mechano]

9 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I'm not sure I'd say that. If only because Generations is a thing that happened after Colours. Unless you dislike the boost formula I guess, but even with Forces' average reviews, Sonic Team will likely compare that to Mania and Gens and have to figure out what exactly went wrong here (Namely, focusing on Colours' level design for starters).

I do dislike it. 3D Sonic isn't really about platforming anymore. It's mainly about just running forward and dodging/trying not to run into things. There's platforming in the 2D segments, but it's subpar at best. Generations is the best boost game, and managed to make levels that were a bit more engaging than its predecessors, but I still fundamentally dislike the formula and feel that it greatly limits the series.

The boost, fundamentally, is a formula that prioritizes spectacle over engaging gameplay. It's style over substance, and the style isn't that great to begin with.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

I do dislike it. 3D Sonic isn't really about platforming anymore. It's mainly about just running forward and dodging/trying not to run into things. There's platforming in the 2D segments, but it's subpar at best. Generations is the best boost game, and managed to make levels that were a bit more engaging than its predecessors, but I still fundamentally dislike the formula and feel that it greatly limits the series.

That's fair enough, but even with that, Mania did so well it'd be utterly insane for SEGA not to capitalise on it's success. With the fact they shoved Classic into it's own little dimension, I see Mania being the setup for a spinoff series.

Personally, I'm not sure if I'd like another Mania sequel right now, if only because I'd absolutely love to see StealthTax making a crack at the Advance series. I feel they could do the multiple character gameplay far better than Dimps could with the bottomless pit nonsense.

[Gabz Girl]

I’m with Mechano. I don’t hate Sonic Forces, I just find it disappointing. I can name some positives for sure, music and graphics for example, and those can be kept and brought over to future Sonic games. Things like gameplay, level design and Classic Sonic though? Scrap it, get rid of it. We need something new, something that can polish and improve the Boost gameplay even more. 

[dbzfan7]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Sonic, Shadow, Amy and Silver all have their own personalities back in some way. Amy is nowhere near the Sonic-obsessed version that's been played up over the last few games, instead acting a bit more like Boom's version. Knuckles isn't really authoritarian. He's serious yes but there's various points he has some funny moments, including knocking off the avatar accidentally, telling him to just follow Sonic, telling Charmy that he somehow found use for him when Charmy tries to insult the avatar and other such moments. Amy even says in one of the world-map conversations that Knuckles isn't going anywhere near the Death Egg because while he's a good leader, he'd get easily distracted and angry with something.

Shadow is the first time I've enjoyed him in ages. Not only does he get a good few lines, but he shows some clear concern for Omega and Rouge here, enough to the point Infinite's method of screwing with him was forcing him to retrieve Omega's destroyed body with Rouge and then having both of them turn on him mid-level. Eggman, while not as fun as Boom or LW for example has at least gone back to SA levels of competence and being an actual villain. I do agree that he goes too serious here, and would've loved seeing more of his egotistical bombastic personality here, but the competence and serious attitude was at least in the series before. Silver, while not getting a ton of focus still has aspects of his original personality too, stuff like being an optimist but also believing that they need to begin work on fixing the problem themselves instead of just hoping for Sonic to save them etc. 

There is characters that still need a lot of work, definitely. Rouge and Tails absolutely, Eggman as well needs some of his fun back to mix with his competence as that's always what made Eggman stand out above the rest. But it's a good first step and something I absolutely want Sonic Team to keep working on. It's nowhere near the levels of say Ian Flynn, but it's a damn good improvement over what we had IMO.

Knuckles I felt was a little better honestly. Though that Amy line is annoying. Yeah let's not have Knuckles do something. The physical power house....nah he's better off not in the front lines. Not to mention selling Knuckles short as some buffoon.

Amy I don't think really got better, just perhaps less offensive. I'd rather her not be like her Boom self, as I find that completely inoffensive and dull. The blank slate you can literally make do anything as there is nothing to defining and stand out for her. Don't know why people seem to want the fangirl part to be turned down so low. It's what makes her fun in the first place. It's only when it's dialed up to 11 when it gets too annoying. So pretty much like every other character when a trait is dialed down to zero or 11.

Sonic, Shadow, and I guess Silver were more on point. Well at least til Sonic made that Sand hill joke. *Sad Dunkey*

Nothing else to say about Tails.

But I think I found out what Omega did. He hid himself while he repaired himself.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

25 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

The boost, fundamentally, is a formula that prioritizes spectacle over engaging gameplay. It's style over substance, and the style isn't that great to begin with.

Yes. Those are Sonic games if I remember. Style over substance is what Sonic's entire gameplay is based around. 

That is one of the reasons why he was and is extremely popular. 
 

Quote

 

3D Sonic isn't really about platforming anymore.

 

 I wouldn't be inclined to presume that. His older titles, while consisting of more platforming(It's really not that large of gap dude)were still focused on speedrunning on land. After Unleashed, I will admit it became less interesting as time went one. World Adventure's 2D sections had more platforming but that was the entire point of that style during it's first iteration(if we included the werehog, then it counts also). 2D was more platforming intensive and 3D was more about dodging obstacles. Sonic games after that shouldn't have used the same exact formula of platforming that Unleashed did since it made sense during that time.

Quote

It's mainly about just running forward and dodging/trying not to run into things. 

You just described the entirety of Sonic as a whole. Run forward, dodge obstacles you can't see coming(2D games and Unleashed) and move on. Keep that momentum going. 

 

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Yes. Those are Sonic games if I remember. Style over substance is what Sonic's entire gameplay is based around. 

That is one of the reasons why he was and is extremely popular. 

No. The original Sonic games had intricate, well-designed levels that complimented Sonic's abilities. Speed was a reward for playing well, not a given.

At its core, Sonic was popular because it was good as a game, not because of its stylish bells and whistles. Those things helped, sure, but without solid gameplay at its center, the Sonic franchise would have been forgotten, consigned to the dustbin of history like many other shoddily-made mascot platformers of the era.

I feel that for someone to say "style over substance has always been what Sonic's about", they have to fundamentally not understand the original games. Granted, I think Sonic Team themselves fundamentally misunderstand their original games, because every time they attempt to emulate them, they're completely off the mark.

[KHCast]

3 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

And in the same way, people don't have to pay attention to criticisms that didn't impact their playtime in anyway

Did I not just say that in my post?

 

3 hours ago, KHCast said:

just like there are some that like if and don't see problems so aren't obligated to complain about things they don't personally see, I don't have to give praise to things that didn't impact my play time in any good ways.

 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

1 minute ago, Super Mechanio said:

No. The original Sonic games had intricate, well-designed levels that complimented Sonic's abilities. Speed was a reward for playing well, not a given.

At its core, Sonic was popular because it was good as a game, not because of its stylish bells and whistles. Those things helped, sure, but without solid gameplay at its center, the Sonic franchise would have been forgotten, consigned to the dustbin of history like many other shoddily-made mascot platformers of the era.

I feel that for someone to say "style over substance has always been what Sonic's about", they have to fundamentally not understand the original games. Granted, I think Sonic Team themselves fundamentally misunderstand their original games, because every time they attempt to emulate them, they're completely off the mark.

To be fair, superficially Sonic DOES appear to be Style over Substance, but it would really be more accurate to say that the games of old were more about Style AND Substance, or Substance RESULTING in Style. Like you said however, Sonic Team and most people unfamiliar with this would probably just assume it's style over substance.

[Scar]

The reviews from IGN, and impressions from Jim Sterling and the like absolutely make sense. This game is by every definition inoffensive (except to fans). Its competently made, not broken and for someone just jogging on by its probably a fun little distraction. Thing is, its not good enough. Not for me. I don't want to settle for competent or inoffensive, as I'm sure most of us here don't.

But for most people. Its OK. And OK isn't bad.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, Scar said:

I don't want to settle for competent or inoffensive, as I'm sure most of us here don't.

Yeah. For this franchise, which used to consistently be considered good - great even - simply being mediocre isn't good enough.

Sonic used to rival Mario on the global stage. The very thought of that today is laughable, and that's really sad. 

If the highest praise games in this series can get is "It's not that bad," then Sonic has definitely fallen a long way. As a longtime fan, I expect better because this series used to be better.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 hour ago, Super Mechanio said:

No. The original Sonic games had intricate, well-designed levels that complimented Sonic's abilities. Speed was a reward for playing well, not a given.

 That applies to very few Sonic titles(Sonic Advance 2 and Sonic 1). The rest of the games just gave you more springs, speed boosters or whatever gimmick to help you move along. Not to say they are used like they are in modern titles today.

And Spin Dash would like to have a word with you...

That mechanic negated much of those statements and became more necessary through subsequent titles. What should be said how the levels allow you to gain top speed. If you want to play the games effectively, using spin dash is the most optimal way of doing so.

Quote

At its core, Sonic was popular because it was good as a game, not because of its stylish bells and whistles. Those things helped, sure, but without solid gameplay at its center, the Sonic franchise would have been forgotten, consigned to the dustbin of history like many other shoddily-made mascot platformers of the era.

 What made Sonic so insanely popular was because of the marketing strategies of Sega with Sonic and their products of the Genesis(blast processing etc).  If he didn't have those insane graphics, the fine tuned sound/music design and sense of speed he would never be able to keep that edge. 

Keep in mind I'm not fully disagreeing with you fully. At his core, yeah. But there was so much surrounding his core which made him so good lol.

Quote

I feel that for someone to say "style over substance has always been what Sonic's about", they have to fundamentally not understand the original games.

I didn't say the game didn't have substance. It does. Just not that intensive as other platformers like Ristar, Dynamite Headdy, Rayman etc.

It's a very simple and accessible set of games with a sense of complexity to it(at least this applies more with Sonic 3&K). 

We all like to say who does and who doesn't understand Sonic. Everyone in the fanbase has a specific idea on how he should function and it becomes more polarizing than Sonic Team since 2013.

Quote

 Granted, I think Sonic Team themselves fundamentally misunderstand their original games, because every time they attempt to emulate them, they're completely off the mark.

Depends on the game. Sonic Forces wanted to emulate Classic Sonic but failed on most fronts, which I assume you were referencing.

[AdventChild]

Another day and another Amazon update with now it is on its way out of the list at #87 (Mario + Rabbids still up at #64 now). It'll definitely be off the list sooner than thought. Doubt even slashing it for half price would save it which also meaning Sega will get less from it too, from something that has been nearly released for about a week no less.

https://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames#5

[Sonicfan287]

I actually found Game Informer's review of Sonic Forces to be among the most odd. They gave it a 6.5, usually a not so good score but actually said they had fun with the game and said it was a step in the right direction for Sonic's 3D outings. Similarly, IGN gave it a 6.9 and had more or less the same sentiment. And honestly, I agree with the scores for once. I don't feel like the reviewers are being overly biased because it's Sonic and it feels more like they're just reviewing this as a game instead of a Sonic game if that makes sense. In past Sonic game reviews, I've detected this hint of "ugh another sonic game" from the reviewers and this time, even though the scores aren't great, the criticism feels justified but not over the top and the praise seems honest and not one of those "it's pretty good for a sonic game" backhanded compliments. 

[molul]

I hope Mania and Forces' reception and sales result in a 2.5D Sonic directed by Taxman and with visuals by Sonic Team, a la Donkey Kong Country Returns or New Super Mario Bros.

[Sonikko]

13 hours ago, Scar said:

The reviews from IGN, and impressions from Jim Sterling and the like absolutely make sense. This game is by every definition inoffensive (except to fans). Its competently made, not broken and for someone just jogging on by its probably a fun little distraction. Thing is, its not good enough. Not for me. I don't want to settle for competent or inoffensive, as I'm sure most of us here don't.

But for most people. Its OK. And OK isn't bad.

I agree with what you say that ok isn't bad, and that some people find this game ok, but the majority of reviews haven't been on the ok side, they're on the mediocre side.

The general reception for this game is "it's mediocre", then some of us can't find anything positive about it and consider it less than mediocre, some fans love it and consider it a good game, but the highest number of opinions ranges in the mediocre range.

[Cayenne]

18 hours ago, AdventChild said:

Another day and another Amazon update with now it is on its way out of the list at #87 (Mario + Rabbids still up at #64 now). It'll definitely be off the list sooner than thought. Doubt even slashing it for half price would save it which also meaning Sega will get less from it too, from something that has been nearly released for about a week no less.

https://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames#5

Ironically enough, it doesn't even appear on the japanese list:

Most wished for:

https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/most-wished-for/videogames/ref=s9u_ri_gw_clnk?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_r=4a39890f-c7b2-11e7-a6b2-2978f9713900&pd_rd_w=GoY9n&pd_rd_wg=zEVyP&pf_rd_m=AN1VRQENFRJN5&pf_rd_s=&pf_rd_r=CY339KW63V730SXPTN35&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=116915dc-f5f4-4e89-9a0f-6c695c9b1c55&pf_rd_i=desktop

Best sellers:

https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/bestsellers/videogames/ref=zg_mw_tab_t_bs#1

As expected, pampering Japan with a demo and Hooters didn't help anything.

Edit: added japanese best sellers to the post.

[Dr. Mechano]

14 hours ago, AdventChild said:

Another day and another Amazon update with now it is on its way out of the list at #87 (Mario + Rabbids still up at #64 now). It'll definitely be off the list sooner than thought. Doubt even slashing it for half price would save it which also meaning Sega will get less from it too, from something that has been nearly released for about a week no less.

https://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames#5

Yeah, I think most people who planned on buying Forces already have. The game had a bunch of people buy it at launch, but isn't going to have a ton of staying power afterward. Mario + Rabbids, meanwhile, a game that's already several months old, continues to sell steadily.

While it's certainly possible we'll see a Christmas boost for the game a bit later, I have to wonder how significant it will be, especially since it will be competing with Odyssey and other more popular titles during the holiday rush this year.

We have to remember that, despite how it looks, this game wasn't cheap to make. Four years of development time is a lot of man-hours and resources. While we probably won't get an exact figure, it's safe to say this game cost millions of dollars to produce, and I really am curious if it will be able to break even, much less turn over a significant profit. Their decision to cut the price down to $40 will result in them getting less money per game (effectively, it would be the same as giving out one free copy for every two sold), with the justification that it will entice more people into buying the game in the first place. I wonder if that gambit ended up working.

Incidentally, as of this post, Forces is down to #90 now.

[superman43]

My review (from what I saw and feel from the videos, I am not going to pay money for Forces as I don´t feel it´s worth a try and besides that I have no hardware that could run it):

Automation and scripted sequences were apparent in some levels of Classics and Mania, but since Adventure there is overabundance, triggered mainly in Sonic Heroes and 06. The fact is that the player input is way less needed in Forces than in any game before it. Since Generations (or even Colors/Unleashed ?), if you try to do some move developers think you are not supposed to do, you just plummet to your death. Level design, well, everything was said. It´s visible that there are more 2D sections and the 3D sections are used as means of transport between 2D ones more than in Gens/Colors. Gameplay, also, very similar to Gens (no momentum) but looks from what others say to be like if Sonic had a ball chained to his feet.

Levels itself look great, but, they looked very well in Generations as well. So, that´s not much of a positive.

Green Hill levels haven´t brought anything new apart from sand and sandworm background. Yes, Avatar had a robo-spider, wow.

Chemical Plant is the same. Death Egg is fine, but it lacks in comparison to 3&K, it´s certainly the one that the designers tried to imitate.

Even some names of levels feel like the devs were lacking creativity. Seriously, Eggman Empire Fortress ??? Why they didn´t use Iron Fortress which would be a very fine name is a mystery for me. Death Egg Robot for all 3 phases is just purely lame.

Story could bring much more than it did, but overall was fine, even with several plotholes.

Overall I must say that the game deserves 6/10. Relatively good story, but the gameplay is bad as with all boost games with an additional strange mechanics of Classic Sonic. Visuals are great and similar to Gens. Glad they heavily advertised Forces being built with Hedgehog Engine 1.5  2.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

Sonic really looks like he's trouble financially, even more than with '06. If early sales are a true barometer of where we are now, Sonic is in a very bad place. Now that reputation has finally caught up with the brand, main titles are not even a guarantee of substantial profit anymore. 

If the 3D games don't get shelved, hopefully someone at SEGA will finally realize this and make the proper adjustment to turn things around.. 

[Meta77]

No Sonic used to be a celebrity I think that is a thing many have a hard time letting go and why they want all 2d and praise it to glory and back and under the sheets. Cause growing up as a kid i remember the 90s well. Sonic was a star. He was this rival to mario. He was on cereal, he was on soup cans with his own version of it, he was in game ads, he was in game magazines with ads, he was on tv both in show and commercials, he had board games but over the years that all died off when Sega was having money issues and have always had money issues when you look at their actual numbers back then. Them rushing out crap like the 32x and surprise launching the saturn hurt them that much more. If you hurt your engine than your hurting the rest of your car aka sega to sonic. They made a actual good 3d sonic game, but as with the last few 3d games the biggest issue seg has is actually testing the game fully and controls in a effort to rush out a game to meet some invisible deadline for a already passed anniversary,.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

2 hours ago, Meta77 said:

No Sonic used to be a celebrity I think that is a thing many have a hard time letting go and why they want all 2d and praise it to glory and back and under the sheets. Cause growing up as a kid i remember the 90s well. Sonic was a star. He was this rival to mario. He was on cereal, he was on soup cans with his own version of it, he was in game ads, he was in game magazines with ads, he was on tv both in show and commercials, he had board games but over the years that all died off when Sega was having money issues and have always had money issues when you look at their actual numbers back then. Them rushing out crap like the 32x and surprise launching the saturn hurt them that much more. If you hurt your engine than your hurting the rest of your car aka sega to sonic. They made a actual good 3d sonic game, but as with the last few 3d games the biggest issue seg has is actually testing the game fully and controls in a effort to rush out a game to meet some invisible deadline for a already passed anniversary,.

This is a good post but I want to disagree with the small statement in the bolded: Very few people want all 2D games. I think almost everyone knows that Sonic can't be a big franchise again without the 3D games being successful and in that sense, he'll never reach his full potential until the 3D games are great and respected among the general public. But they aren't and never have been, even by SEGA's own standards as they have publicly admitted.

My opinion: The Adventure games might have accomplished that had SEGA not rushed them out the door and Sonic Team been a lot more focused on polishing their gameplay (so the games would actually be solid underneath the exterior and age well), but neither did. The games built on a progressively worse foundation over time and so people look back on games that were never truly solid to begin with. That's why the 3D games don't ever get praised like the Genesis classics do, even though they are more important to Sonic's future. 

[Razule]

2 hours ago, Meta77 said:

why they want all 2d

After all this time, that's what you took away from the criticism..? People like Mania and want more of it, but most people want 3D Sonic to be better, not dumped. For some people, making it better is taking more cues from the classics and incorporating physics and stuff.