Sonic Forces Reviews Thread

[Dr. Mechano]

18 hours ago, AdventChild said:

Another day and another Amazon update with now it is on its way out of the list at #87 (Mario + Rabbids still up at #64 now).

https://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames#5

Update: Sonic Forces is officially off the top 100 list now. That didn't last long. (Mario and Rabbids, by contrast, actually increased to rank 60.)

 

[Meta77]

30 minutes ago, Razule said:

After all this time, that's what you took away from the criticism..? People like Mania and want more of it, but most people want 3D Sonic to be better, not dumped. For some people, making it better is taking more cues from the classics and incorporating physics and stuff.

Some do but i see just as many comments around youtubers that trashed on the game saying they want to get rid of 3d sonic and just have games like mania from now on. And all sega will eventually take from this is well noting. people say they want them to learn but if they havent since 2004 i doubt anything will move them. They may just stop sonic and focus on miku since she is still really popular in japan.

[Sonikko]

1 hour ago, Razule said:

After all this time, that's what you took away from the criticism..? People like Mania and want more of it, but most people want 3D Sonic to be better, not dumped. For some people, making it better is taking more cues from the classics and incorporating physics and stuff.

No he has a point. The "Sonic doesn't work in 3D" argument is more broad than we think. Basically all the review I've seen mention that Sonic should stick to 2D, as if Forces isn't already completely 2D.

[Scar]

4 hours ago, SaberX said:

And thats the problem with you guys.

Sonic is a big deal. Its a game where people gonna aways expecting the best of him, because thats how Sonic is supposed to be - a celibrity. So, it's not like for him deliver "ok" or "fair" games. Expecting "ok" for its games(even though the marketing says otherwise) is nothing but lowering your expectations to fit the game.

If for Sonic is ok to be ok, then better people get used to low sales and Sonic dissapearing from time to time, until he is fully forgotten.

Not sure what you're referring to here, but I clearly stated that this state of affairs is not good enough for me.

I was just saying that most people don't care enough, and this is a sufficient distraction.

[superman43]

57 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

No he has a point. The "Sonic doesn't work in 3D" argument is more broad than we think. Basically all the review I've seen mention that Sonic should stick to 2D, as if Forces isn't already completely 2D.

Yes. Basically I would change "Sonic doesn´t work in 3D" to "Make Sonic 3D exclusive again"... Generations´ Seaside Hill Act 2 should serve as the primary supply of ideas why the stage is actually the best 3D stage up to date... throw away Boost, don´t add any 2D sections... and build around the same diversity with a new layout and with a cool name and if you really want to add some stages from the past, add some that were actually good, but not rehashed yet. 

I could imagine for example Eggman rebuilding Final Fortress as the mean of transport for one game. With Sonic traversing it as ship á la Flying Battery in Sonic Mania and not some strange platforms floating in the middle as in Heroes. Adding some gimmicks from original stages, but not layout. And making it penultimate stage á la Metallic Madness in Mania. 

I believe that this kind of concept would be more functional than Forces plus it could serve as a limited Mania for the 3D era.

EDIT: Which stages of SA1/SA2 had multiple routes for at least some part ? I know that Heroes have only 1 area where you can do something different with different character as leader and that is not good for potentional new game.

[Dr. Mechano]

27 minutes ago, superman43 said:

Yes. Basically I would change "Sonic doesn´t work in 3D" to "Make Sonic 3D exclusive again"...

Was Sonic ever 3D-exclusive? Even in the Adventure era, we had the Advance/Rush games.

I am all for having entirely 2D and entirely 3D games though, rather than Sonic's latest outings that give us half-hearted offerings of both.

[superman43]

1 minute ago, Super Mechanio said:

Was Sonic ever 3D-exclusive? Even in the Adventure era, we had the Advance/Rush games.

I am all for having entirely 2D and entirely 3D games though, rather than Sonic's latest outings that give us half-hearted offerings of both.

Yes, that´s it. By "3D-exclusive" I actually meant that the most mainstream Sonic games should be 3D. After Unleashed, Colors, Generations and Forces. And it´s name should not be plural.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, superman43 said:

Yes, that´s it. By "3D-exclusive" I actually meant that the most mainstream Sonic games should be 3D. After Unleashed, Colors, Generations and Forces. And it´s name should not be plural.

I would argue that titles like Mania/Rush/etc. are just as "mainstream" and important as the 3D titles are, but I get what you're saying.

[superman43]

5 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

I would argue that titles like Mania/Rush/etc. are just as "mainstream" and important as the 3D titles are, but I get what you're saying.

Yes, I meant that supposedly 3D outings should actually be fully 3D, not only partially, with the part being game by game smaller and smaller. Or way more useless.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Sonikko said:

No he has a point. The "Sonic doesn't work in 3D" argument is more broad than we think. Basically all the review I've seen mention that Sonic should stick to 2D, as if Forces isn't already completely 2D.

This is true. Really though,we should interpret that statement as a matter of logical analysis rather than a wider feeling that people don't want 3D Sonic games. It's really just that the 3D games quality have never peaked too high and been inconsistent, and thus not motivated the general community to think otherwise. As a result the brand has suffered. It's common sense for anyone who is not emotionally invested in the franchise to think "we'll since the 3D games have struggled so much, maybe Sonic should stick to 2D". It's really an easy conclusion to come to given the state of the brand. Modern 3D sonic has been 'solid' at best, and a disaster epic at worst.

Even with this history, it's also common sense that if Sonic were now to release a 3D game at a very high level of quality, it would be universally praised and have a large rally in sales volume. There is no bias against great games; a homerun for sonic in 3D would immediately restore the franchise, to a larger degree than even Mania did.

[Sonikko]

I agree with all the above posts, but the issue is a little different imo.

First of all, the "3D Sonic doesn't work" song comes from a logical analysis, but one that doesn't go deeper than "this game sucks and the 10 games that came before it aren't that much better". Which isn't flawed in itself, but it's not that profound at the same time.

The point is, what feedback is Sonic Team getting? All they hear is "scrap 3D Sonic, it doesn't work", which is ultimately the reason why we see less and less 3D in games and a prevalence of 2D section. And 3D sections that are designed like 2D ones (Nakamura himself stated it in a recent interview, I'm not making up things. He literally said they design the game as if it's in a 2D space and then put the camera on the back).

And on top of that Mania sold millions while Forces is still sitting at 15k on Steam after almost a week, it's not even in the Amazon charts in Japan, and it's almost out of the top100 on Amazon.com iirc.

This has been going on for a long time and it does nothing else than hurt the franchise. 3D Sonic has potential, they have never even scratched the surface of what it could be.

[Meta77]

5 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I agree with all the above posts, but the issue is a little different imo.

The point is, what feedback is Sonic Team getting? All they hear is "scrap 3D Sonic, it doesn't work", which is ultimately the reason why we see less and less 3D in games and a prevalence of 2D section. And 3D sections that are designed like 2D ones (Nakamura himself stated it in a recent interview, I'm not making up things. He literally said they design the game as if it's in a 2D space and then put the camera on the back).

And on top of that Mania sold millions while Forces is still sitting at 15k on Steam after almost a week, it's not even in the Amazon charts in Japan, and it's almost out of the top100 on Amazon.com iirc.

This has been going on for a long time and it does nothing else than hurt the franchise. 3D Sonic has potential, they have never even scratched the surface of what it could be.

Dont you mean thousands? If mania had sold millions we would be seeing articles from outlets talking about the huge numbers like with how quickly mario odyssey hit 2 million and Nintendo was posting about those numbers.

[Sonikko]

2 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Dont you mean thousands? If mania had sold millions we would be seeing articles from outlets talking about the huge numbers like with how quickly mario odyssey hit 2 million and Nintendo was posting about those numbers.

I read an analysis of SEGA's Q2 financial report, and going by the increments in percentages, Mania should've sold more than 1.5m.

It was in a tweet, can't remember where but it looks like the game did very well.

Might be complete BS as I don't have the knowledge to make these calculations myself so.

[Meta77]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

I read an analysis of SEGA's Q2 financial report, and going by the increments in percentages, Mania should've sold more than 1.5m.

It was in a tweet, can't remember where but it looks like the game did very well.

Might be complete BS as I don't have the knowledge to make these calculations myself so.

No im not saying your bsing. Just that I would assume with numbers like that sega would brag more about rather than me seeing miku a lot.

[D.K.]

23 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

(Nakamura himself stated it in a recent interview, I'm not making up things. He literally said they design the game as if it's in a 2D space and then put the camera on the back).

i'm so fucking done

[Mark1]

Sonic Team really don’t get good feedback then. 

Making Sonic a true 3D experience has progressively gotten worse, what should’ve been simpler experiences to solve became more complicated over time. And less fun - leading to complete messes like Sonic ‘06.

With the boost formula they used an approach which solved some of these problems - but made everything more linear and spectacle focused. And that still hasn’t changed.

No wonder people are giving up with Sonic. Mania is the only form of a true, yet incredible Sonic game we’ve had in years.

And this was made by a different team altogether, by fans

Edit: Sonic Team consists of stubborn staff who have little of a desire to make these games. Compare this to the passion shown in Mario Odyssey/Sonic Mania - you can see how much fan they had making these games.

[Sonikko]

I've been looking for that 2D in 3D space interview and I can't seem to find it, sorry about that. But I came across a very interesting interview with Iizuka earlier this year.

Quote

So, on one end of the spectrum, we have the autopilot problem I mentioned earlier, but on the other end, Sonic is going so fast that you almost need to have superhuman reflexes to avoid the obstacles and keep your momentum up. How do you balance those two elements so that it's fun, but still a challenge?

What you're touching upon is this contradictory kind of gameplay design. Am I out of control because it's on autopilot and I'm doing the cool stuff I want to do? Or am I in control and now there's no way I can play this game because it's too crazy? This really started with Sonic Adventure and bringing the title into the 3D world. Thinking, "How can we balance this and make it so you don't feel completely out of control or completely in control?" One of the problems we had with Sonic Adventure was if you're completely in control, nobody can run the loop-de-loop... they just fly right out! So how can we make it so that you do this really cool thing? The only way we found was to limit the player's action to make sure they get all the way through the loop, otherwise no one is going to make it through. What you're pointing at is what we've been going through for decades! Where's that fine line in controlling how far people can move without putting them in flat rails, because once they're in autopilot mode, it's no longer fun because they no longer feel in control. Once you take all the restraints off, you're going to fly off and you're not going to have a fun time. That's what I've been working on: trying to find that perfect sweet spot. Forces is going to be the latest version and latest iteration of people those restraints in where they need to be put in, but still makes you feel like you're in control and you're making all the movements.

I mean... the guy gets it.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

I've thought over the whole "no more 2D in 3D" argument. I actually now disagree with this aspect within Modern Sonic's gameplay. The main problem with the 2D segments are how abundant they when you already have a 2D character having that design. I personally love how the game shifts from high speed reactive action to a little bit slower paced platforming elements integrated into it. It's not unusual for the pace to slowdown considering that is what most Sonic games do anyways.

Although I understand the complaint....I find this a unique attribute to be improved on in later games. Perhaps having Act 1 being in 3D and Act 2 a fully 2D level following the philosophy of S&K. 

[___-_]

44 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Where's that fine line in controlling how far people can move without putting them in flat rails, because once they're in autopilot mode, it's no longer fun because they no longer feel in control. Once you take all the restraints off, you're going to fly off and you're not going to have a fun time. That's what I've been working on: trying to find that perfect sweet spot. Forces is going to be the latest version and latest iteration of people those restraints in where they need to be put in, but still makes you feel like you're in control and you're making all the movements.

Welp, obviously this became far from the truth in Forces. You don't even get to the speed booster that leads to a loop before it becomes a scripted path lol. But at least they acknowledge the problem.

I always felt that you can just put short barriers / fences  on the sides of the runways of a loop and call it a day. Or at least make the runway of the loop wide enough so you don't easily fall off. Then it should be a matter of getting that camera down and the rest coming down to the player's skill. What do I know though, I'm definitely no programmer or a game designer.

It aint like it's not possible, though. I remember having a fun ass time going through loops and cork screws in Utopia.

 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

38 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I've been looking for that 2D in 3D space interview and I can't seem to find it, sorry about that. But I came across a very interesting interview with Iizuka earlier this year.

I mean... the guy gets it.

The automation of Loops did stop when it came to later titles such as Heroes. 

 

38 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

So, on one end of the spectrum, we have the autopilot problem I mentioned earlier, but on the other end, Sonic is going so fast that you almost need to have superhuman reflexes to avoid the obstacles and keep your momentum up. How do you balance those two elements so that it's fun, but still a challenge?

He seems to be talking about World Adventure when it comes to reflexes. Generations/Colors no longer had any real challenges when it came to level design(similar to how Mania started to ease up too) and I would agree with him here. Putting Sonic at that speed puts too many casual players off because it is a genuinely challenging game perfecting everything even down to short hops. In a way, It's old school arcade-y style of gameplay and Iove that hell out of that. Just doesn't fit in today's standard of modern gamers who lover slower paced gaming like Mario, Zelda etc.

 

[Patron]

 

[dbzfan7]

41 minutes ago, Patron said:

That "Not that Bad" rant was the best part. I am tired of the "It wasn't that bad" to somehow be considered ok. Why can't we have "It's good." Well actually we can with Sonic Mania. But he's totally right in I hear "It's not that bad" far more often than it's good. Honestly liked this review more than Johnny's.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

Just now, dbzfan7 said:

That "Not that Bad" rant was the best part. I am tired of the "It wasn't that bad" to somehow be considered ok. Why can't we have "It's good." Well actually we can with Sonic Mania. But he's totally right in I hear "It's not that bad" far more often than it's good. Honestly liked this review more than Johnny's.

Lost World and Forces are the only games in the past few years that have been like this(I wouldn't qualify Boom being counted).

It's not like a streak of "not bad games" have been consistently hitting. We can't have good because that's all the company's problem.

[Razule]

Inb4 the lesson SEGA takes from the Classic Sonic criticism is that no one likes Classic Sonic anymore and abandons Mania

5 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Lost World and Forces are the only games in the past few years that have been like this(I wouldn't qualify Boom being counted).

It's not like a streak of "not bad games" have been consistently hitting. We can't have good because that's all the company's problem.

So.. we've had a streak of mediocre games then? And counting Boom, mediocre to bad games.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

38 minutes ago, Razule said:

Inb4 the lesson SEGA takes from the Classic Sonic criticism is that no one likes Classic Sonic anymore and abandons Mania

Seeing as how Mania has sold well for the company and given the highest degree of positive press its gotten in decades, the more likely thing is that they further separate Mania from, um.... whatever it is they're trying to do with Modern Sonic. They're not abandoning that. Regardless of what happens with Modern Sonic in the next game, they'll find some way to repeat Mania's success, possibly on an even larger scale. 

If Sonic Team gets another opportunity at a Sonic title after this, I'd bet on them trying to emulate Mania in their 3D titles some superficial way and we'll get a similar low-level execution as we did with Forces gameplay.  

Ultimately though, sales are king:  I can't imagine the status quo will be maintained with Forces sales performing as poorly as they seem to be right now.