Sonic Forces Reviews Thread

[Kuzu]

Glad somebody relatively known realizes that settling for just "eh.." games is ultimately doing more harm than good at this point.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

51 minutes ago, Razule said:

Inb4 the lesson SEGA takes from the Classic Sonic criticism is that no one likes Classic Sonic anymore and abandons Mania

So.. we've had a streak of mediocre games then? And counting Boom, mediocre to bad games.

Do the 3DS games count also?

I personally am used to this by now and not just from the Sonic franchise but from other companies. Sad to see such a common happening..

Technically I'd put Lost World below Forces. That is a whole nother level of mediocrity right there.

[dbzfan7]

1 hour ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Lost World and Forces are the only games in the past few years that have been like this(I wouldn't qualify Boom being counted).

It's not like a streak of "not bad games" have been consistently hitting. We can't have good because that's all the company's problem.

Well no there's the boom games, and before that even we've had tons of "Eh" kinda responses. I agree with him that "Not that bad" is really not the quality we should be ok with or accept. Especially when we know better can be accomplished and has been.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

5 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Well no there's the boom games, and before that even we've had tons of "Eh" kinda responses. I agree with him that "Not that bad" is really not the quality we should be ok with or accept. Especially when we know better can be accomplished and has been.

That's right. I did forget about the 3DS titles completely. Shattered Crystals was poor but Fire And Ice seemed to be decent from what I remember. Then again those games aren't made by Sega/Sonic Team. None of the Boom games are.

Most of them are more like explorative platformers rather than following Sonic's core design.

Kinda why It's hard to count them for me.

[dbzfan7]

3 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

That's right. I did forget about the 3DS titles completely. Shattered Crystals was poor but Fire And Ice seemed to be decent from what I remember. Then again those games aren't made by Sega/Sonic Team. None of the Boom games are.

Most of them are more like explorative platformers rather than following Sonic's core design.

Kinda why It's hard to count them for me.

When I say Sonic games and stuff, I mean in general. Not just from Sonic Team. Sonic Team, Dimps, Whitehead (Who's team made my favourite Sonic game ever), whoever. We shouldn't just be ok with consistent decency or mediocrity. It's alright if sometimes Sonic just gets an ok game....but he gets it quite a lot more than a good game. Sonic as huge and big his franchise is, should be far more consistent than it is.

[Dr. Mechano]

5 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

That's right. I did forget about the 3DS titles completely. Shattered Crystals was poor but Fire And Ice seemed to be decent from what I remember. Then again those games aren't made by Sega/Sonic Team. None of the Boom games are.

Most of them are more like explorative platformers rather than following Sonic's core design.

Kinda why It's hard to count them for me.

The thing is, it doesn't matter if they were made by Sonic Team or not.

To the general public, they're still awful Sonic games, and they don't really care about the subtle nuances of which team made which game. The Boom games have damaged the Sonic brand's reputation, and them being followed up by a mediocre-to-bad game like Forces isn't really helping to win back the crowd.

Mania is really the first near-universally praised Sonic game we've had in quite a while, garnering attention even from lots of people who haven't touched the franchise in years. But it's one game, and one game alone can't really offset years of the franchise's bad reputation with the gaming public. 

[AdventChild]

 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

3 hours ago, Patron said:

 

 

48 minutes ago, AdventChild said:

 

Not like anyone's getting in trouble or anything, but in the future can we avoid video-only posts? Adding a couple of sentences of information, your opinions, etc. would be a lot better.

[The Deleter]

On 11/11/2017 at 12:57 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Y'see, I can agree with the idea of not putting up with mediocrity, that's fine. I know personally, despite my enjoyment of Forces, I'd like to see elements done better or some outright removed. But there's a very very fine line about what you're suggesting, because it feels like a lot of people hasn't been trying to stop mediocrity, but rather has been outright thrashing every single aspect of Forces to call it a bad game, hoping it gets completely low scores etc. As someone who enjoys Forces but sees flaws and knows better can be done, it feels a lot less like wanting something better, and just wanting to focus on negatives, and frankly, that isn't how you fight "mediocrity". 

[...]

That's really why I keep disagreeing with this idea of "give them some really shitty scores, make the game bomb and everything will be all better". No, game development doesn't work like that. Just constantly listing off what's wrong with the game isn't going to make things better unless it is really obvious what's wrong with the game, like on the level of 06 and Rise of Lyric, which were truly terrible games that had extremely glaring issues.

With Forces, it's not as easy as that because the only arguable glaring issue is level design, and that really comes down to expanding the levels more as opposed to massive issues with the design of it and trying to focus more on Generations design as opposed to something akin to Colours. Simply saying the story is bad, the gameplay/level design is bad isn't going to do much without explaining what else was good so the good aspects can be retained and expanded while the negative aspects are left behind. I know I enjoyed Forces' story fifty times better than Colours, Generations or Lost World. At the very least, the story had spectacle and had the majority of characters actually in-character. I know personally I really don't want what was done well here left behind so we can return to Baldy McNosehair jokes. 

That's a nice thought to have, and as someone who has played and enjoyed almost every Sonic game in some form, and believes that there is a potential direction in each and every one of them, (Rise of Lyric included, as you all know :V) it's a situation that I would much prefer to be in, honestly.

Only problem is we are not in a reality where that can, or should, matter anymore

• The developers for this franchise have never been able to parse what people's nuanced thoughts and issues with the games are, due to being a Japanese development team, or are being unconsciously obtuse towards what they are told, for whatever reason. For example, Aaron himself relayed the overall feedback from Classic fans towards Sonic team after Sonic 4's release, in the form of a presentation iirc, from the physics to the nostalgia rehashing. They had this feedback from a loud minority directly presented to them. Did that change how they handled the games from that point onward?... From all looks and appearances, no, it didn't. And again, it was presented directly to them, in a way they could understand it in their own language. 
  
  This form of feedback, until we actually see a change in the consumer relations department, is effectively irrelevant. Sonic Team operates by the loudest voices, and it's own priorities and decisions, first and foremost.
   
• Because of this, near every single one of Sonic Team's decisions for Sonic games is dictated by their own decisions. And their self-dictated history for the most part is composed of mediocre games that have potential in their ideas, but have so many faults and lack of execution that they always fall short. Their sequels? Either ignore the areas that should be polished and expanded upon, or completely scrap the potential, in favor of a completely different focus. The outliers are Colors, (arguably) and Generations, where they actually took the effort to realize what potential the Unleashed gameplay had, and polish the core they had to make it as presentable as possible. All from their own initiative, as well...
  
  Skip ahead more than half a decade later, on the other hand, and what has been accomplished? They scrapped the foundations they were building on for a completely different direction that ended up in mediocrity and failed execution for one game, and then after that, went back to their roots of their most critically acclaimed games... and completely botched the execution somehow, leading to, once again, a mediocre product not worth the industry's time, with a whole bunch of failed ideas vying for attention as well.
   
• Not only that, but one of the main theories there was, for what Sonic Team needed to actually make a great game out of their ideas, was that they aren't given enough time to actually perfect, or even make presentable, half of the ideas that they have for a game. Be it story, game physics, level design, or game effort and cohesion overall. 1-to-2 year dev cycles were the cause of it all, and they just needed a break to make something with a genuine effort, is all...
  
  Forces has come and gone, had an actually solid base to build off of with the previous game, Generations, and with 4 years of development backing it, what product did they produce???
  
  Another poorly-thought-out package of mediocrity.
  
  
  This isn't just a failed experiment. This is a failed sequel. One that proves that this isn't the exception, but the common tenancy.

To "Tolerate mediocrity" is to keep supporting it, regardless of the consequences, in favor of "what could be". And keep the faith if you want, I mean Colors and Generations did happen after all, but we need to acknowledge that Sonic Team being perfectly content/mostly capable of mediocrity isn't the exception here. Or at least try looking at it through the eyes of people who aren't partial to the direction the game takes to the same extent as yourself. Supporting a game and wanting to see the good expanded upon, and the negative realized and done away with, isn't a reasonable stance to take anymore in our opinions.

The simple fact that it is blatant mediocrity, should be the biggest issue people can have with the game. Something that on paper may be forgivable for a one-time passer-by or those interested in the concepts, but in the full context, isn't something worth perpetuating. Every form of mediocrity has potential in it somewhere. (And yes, that includes RoL >:V) Probably even stuff we really like. But at some point... you need to know what limit you're pushing in this kind of a situation.

[Sonikko]

8 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

The automation of Loops did stop when it came to later titles such as Heroes. 

Actually, nope. We haven't ever had loops in 3D that aren't completely automated.

8 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

He seems to be talking about World Adventure when it comes to reflexes. Generations/Colors no longer had any real challenges when it came to level design(similar to how Mania started to ease up too) and I would agree with him here. Putting Sonic at that speed puts too many casual players off because it is a genuinely challenging game perfecting everything even down to short hops. In a way, It's old school arcade-y style of gameplay and Iove that hell out of that. Just doesn't fit in today's standard of modern gamers who lover slower paced gaming like Mario, Zelda etc.

And I don't agree with that, Colours and Generations are challenging, especially on the later stages.

 

[Sonikko]

2 hours ago, The Deleter said:

That's a nice thought to have, and as someone who has played and enjoyed almost every Sonic game in some form, and believes that there is a potential direction in each and every one of them, (Rise of Lyric included, as you all know :V) it's a situation that I would much prefer to be in, honestly.

Only problem is we are not in a reality where that can, or should, matter anymore

• The developers for this franchise have never been able to parse what people's nuanced thoughts and issues with the games are, due to being a Japanese development team, or are being unconsciously obtuse towards what they are told, for whatever reason. For example, Aaron himself relayed the overall feedback from Classic fans towards Sonic team after Sonic 4's release, in the form of a presentation iirc, from the physics to the nostalgia rehashing. They had this feedback from a loud minority directly presented to them. Did that change how they handled the games from that point onward?... From all looks and appearances, no, it didn't. And again, it was presented directly to them, in a way they could understand it in their own language. 
  
  This form of feedback, until we actually see a change in the consumer relations department, is effectively irrelevant. Sonic Team operates by the loudest voices, and it's own priorities and decisions, first and foremost.
   
• Because of this, near every single one of Sonic Team's decisions for Sonic games is dictated by their own decisions. And their self-dictated history for the most part is composed of mediocre games that have potential in their ideas, but have so many faults and lack of execution that they always fall short. Their sequels? Either ignore the areas that should be polished and expanded upon, or completely scrap the potential, in favor of a completely different focus. The outliers are Colors, (arguably) and Generations, where they actually took the effort to realize what potential the Unleashed gameplay had, and polish the core they had to make it as presentable as possible. All from their own initiative, as well...
  
  Skip ahead more than half a decade later, on the other hand, and what has been accomplished? They scrapped the foundations they were building on for a completely different direction that ended up in mediocrity and failed execution for one game, and then after that, went back to their roots of their most critically acclaimed games... and completely botched the execution somehow, leading to, once again, a mediocre product not worth the industry's time, with a whole bunch of failed ideas vying for attention as well.
   
• Not only that, but one of the main theories there was, for what Sonic Team needed to actually make a great game out of their ideas, was that they aren't given enough time to actually perfect, or even make presentable, half of the ideas that they have for a game. Be it story, game physics, level design, or game effort and cohesion overall. 1-to-2 year dev cycles were the cause of it all, and they just needed a break to make something with a genuine effort, is all...
  
  Forces has come and gone, had an actually solid base to build off of with the previous game, Generations, and with 4 years of development backing it, what product did they produce???
  
  Another poorly-thought-out package of mediocrity.
  
  
  This isn't just a failed experiment. This is a failed sequel. One that proves that this isn't the exception, but the common tenancy.

To "Tolerate mediocrity" is to keep supporting it, regardless of the consequences, in favor of "what could be". And keep the faith if you want, I mean Colors and Generations did happen after all, but we need to acknowledge that Sonic Team being perfectly content/mostly capable of mediocrity isn't the exception here. Or at least try looking at it through the eyes of people who aren't partial to the direction the game takes to the same extent as yourself. Supporting a game and wanting to see the good expanded upon, and the negative realized and done away with, isn't a reasonable stance to take anymore in our opinions.

The simple fact that it is blatant mediocrity, should be the biggest issue people can have with the game. Something that on paper may be forgivable for a one-time passer-by or those interested in the concepts, but in the full context, isn't something worth perpetuating. Every form of mediocrity has potential in it somewhere. (And yes, that includes RoL >:V) Probably even stuff we really like. But at some point... you need to know what limit you're pushing in this kind of a situation.

Excellent read. I'd like to add just one thing to all of that. The fact that we waited 3 and a half years for this game and in the end we got a piece of crap, so that adds up to the disappointment. That's a very long time.

I mean that has to count for something, had this been done in a one year cycle I could've forgiven the game somehow, you know tight deadlines and all of that, but 4 years later? No thanks. I'm not putting up with mediocrity.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, something isn't working well this morning, the forums take a while to load and posts order is messed up. I apologize.

[Razule]

Apparently it's number 5 in the UK charts.

[Dr. Mechano]

28 minutes ago, Razule said:

Apparently it's number 5 in the UK charts.

You know, Sonic always seemed way bigger in the UK than it did in America for whatever reason. Though it outperforming Odyssey there is kind of insane.

For comparison - When you look at our sales charts, Forces barely squeezed into the top 100, and was quickly pushed out in less than a week.

[Meta77]

4 hours ago, Sonikko said:

Actually, nope. We haven't ever had loops in 3D that aren't completely automated.

And I don't agree with that, Colours and Generations are challenging, especially on the later stages.

 

Your joking right? Till this day generations is by far the easiest game in the series.  super sonic makes it even easier on top of that with guided flying over a stage

[Ryannumber1gamer]

5 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Your joking right? Till this day generations is by far the easiest game in the series.  super sonic makes it even easier on top of that with guided flying over a stage

No? I mean later stages did get more difficult as the game went on. You can see that with how long it takes to get through something like Planet Wisp as opposed to Chemical Plant. Later stages have a lot more bottomless pits and make you have to work for boosting because trying to just constantly boost will lead you to falling into pits. Levels like Seaside Hill, Planet Wisp and Crisis City all make it so you have to figure out when it's safe to Boost because of the level of obstacles in the later levels. 

And Super Sonic is irrelevant, considering even in games like Mania, he turns stages like Titanic Monarch into cake walks you can run through in like 2 minutes.

And I like Forces but that's probably the one game in the entire series that's given me the less amount of trouble in terms of deaths.

[Meta77]

That said are long stages good. For

 mmMario it makes sense in the fact he's not as fast and most stag3s in
his games last 5 minutes at best for big ones but sonic is mixing speed and platforming do we really messages longer than 3 minutes at best. I enjoyed titanic monarch for the music but hated the stage cause it was so flipping long that I was happy when I finally completed the final path

[Sonikko]

31 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Your joking right? Till this day generations is by far the easiest game in the series.  super sonic makes it even easier on top of that with guided flying over a stage

I don't know man, Crisis City both modern and classic gave me a hard time, especially that last quickstep section which is very trial and error, so did Rooftop Run and Planet Wisp. Seaside Hill was no cake walk either.

[Meta77]

2 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I don't know man, Crisis City both modern and classic gave me a hard time, especially that last quickstep section which is very trial and error, so did Rooftop Run and Planet Wisp. Seaside Hill was no cake walk either.

Nah crisis city in 06 speed section. If you want robsee the gates if he'll open and close 4 times that's the stage for hard lol

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

I don't know man, Crisis City both modern and classic gave me a hard time, especially that last quickstep section which is very trial and error, so did Rooftop Run and Planet Wisp. Seaside Hill was no cake walk either.

I know personally when I was trying to platinum the game that I had to retry levels a ton for S Ranks and collectables as well. Planet Wisp and Crisis City especially.

[Wraith]

The only boost game I honestly find challenging is Unleashed. The ones after got progressively easier for me until Forces where I was basically on autopilot playing it. At most something would catch me off guard once or twice but never again. 

I really wish Forces had been more difficult to compensate for the lack of a lives system.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

9 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Nah crisis city in 06 speed section. If you want robsee the gates if he'll open and close 4 times that's the stage for hard lol

06’s version shouldn’t have any reason to be mentioned because Generations has a different engine and different play style. It’s like trying to compare Emerald Coast in Gens to Adventure despite the fact the level is designed differently and therefore means the difficulty is not compareable. Not to mention a lot of 06’s difficulty comes from bugs and badly designed sections.

[Sonikko]

13 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Nah crisis city in 06 speed section. If you want robsee the gates if he'll open and close 4 times that's the stage for hard lol

As it has already been stated, 06 is an unfair comparison as the game engine is vastly different and the difficulty came from very poor controls and dumb decisions on the design team's part.

If we wanna keep up with the useless comparisons, the same section played in the Generations engine is a cakewalk and shows just how the original game had nothing to offer in terms of gameplay:

 

[Meta77]

2 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

As it has already been stated, 06 is an unfair comparison as the game engine is vastly different and the difficulty came from very poor controls and dumb decisions on the design team's part.

If we wanna keep up with the useless comparisons, the same section played in the Generations engine is a cakewalk and shows just how the original game had nothing to offer in terms of gameplay:

 

Isn't 06s   still the hedgehog engine though?

[Sonikko]

Just now, Meta77 said:

Isn't 06s   still the hedgehog engine though?

Nope, and the Hedgehog Engine is just a graphical engine.

 

Edit: On an unrelated note, I love how the avatar stages in Forces are very close to 06 in design yet people praise them 

 

[Meta77]

3 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Nope, and the Hedgehog Engine is just a graphical engine.

 

Edit: On an unrelated note, I love how the avatar stages in Forces are very close to 06 in design yet people praise them 

 

If i had to rate what I had fun with in forces

1. Avatar

2. M. Sonic

3.

4

5

6. Classic sonic