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Sonic Forces Reviews Thread

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On 11/13/2017 at 7:45 PM, Tyranno said:

That's all I'm trying to say. This is a so much more loaded and complex issue than people are making it, and the problem is these are the voices people want Sega to be listening to. You say it's "not too hard to imagine a scenario where another producer does better" but that's just it - people imagine things without putting much thought into it.

Yeah, and I'm sure the people who suggested Taxman and Stealth should be brought on to make a Sonic game weren't speaking rationally either.

As have people who argued certain fan projects understood the original gameplay better than the official games did too.

Not to mention people who were critical of the PR for the whole kettle of fish that was Sonic 4 (which included but was not limited to classic hits such as "Episode II has an all-new physics engine" "Go play Sonic CD for proper physics" "Tails and Knuckles would cost millions of dollars to implement" the terrible resolution settings that happened with the PC port, and the oh-so-famed True Blue Initiative). Totally clueless people.

Can't forget those who point to the sales and reviews of past Sonic games when saying the series isn't able to power through any bad game forever?

And you shouldn't ignore people who argued that recreating the original physics in modern tech was actually nowhere near the realm of seemingly impossible as people were making it out to be. They were totally off their rocker.

I could go on with countless more examples but I think I've made my point.

I and several others who have been in this franchise for years have gone through this same exact damn song and dance before--if you dare show any lack of trust in Sonic Team's management over the IP (whether it be their approach to design, the quality of the games, how they respond to handling feedback, etc.), your argument is dismissed because you apparently have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Maybe it would be an argument that held more merit if Sonic Team didn't have twenty years of mostly mediocre and/or polarizing games to their reputation to use as a hard reference. To say nothing about how a game made by community members (an idea that again, might I add, wasn't taken seriously either) was even acknowledged by Sega themselves in their IR reports as the best-reviewed Sonic game in fifteen years and was credited for doubling the amount of videogame sales they sold this quarter compared to the same quarter in the previous year; let alone was received better than the game made by the chief studio who had vastly more resources to work with.

But nah, the problem clearly is people who complain, because they simply don't know what they're on about; and nobody outside Sonic Team can be trusted to make a good Sonic game, let alone properly run the franchise.

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4 hours ago, Meta77 said:

I mean it's cause people have different taste. My fav takeaway are people like grumps and jim people who usually don't care for sonic are actually just doing that. Having fun with the game and not flipping every table in a house they can find to complain.  But yea game grumps is a surprise.  I'm waiting to see how aqua road goes. That was the only stage in the entire game to give me issues

Of course everyone has different tastes. It's just that, because we already know Arin's tastes, is why him enjoying the game is surprising. If he didn't care for Colors, Generations, or even Mania, I definitely didn't expect him to enjoy Forces. Unless the Avatar creation and Wispons are just that amusing. And to be fair, creating a dumb looking Avatar and seeing it in cutscenes is the one thing I'm most looking forward to when I finally get a chance to play. 

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On 11/13/2017 at 4:41 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I feel the need to point out the fact that a lot of this argument can be flipped back around towards detractors who are criticising the game a lot. Why bother criticising it so much? Not like SEGA's going to take your criticism and feedback seriously, so why do you feel the need to keep posting about it? 

I get what you're trying to say here, but it doesn't really argue with my point any. All you're saying is that "what's the point of picking out potential and directions from SEGA and having any faith in them if they're not going to listen". And that's not really relevant to my point or changes it. Because again, that can be completely flipped back around to you to say why even bother analysing and even bothering to discuss the complaints of the game if they aren't going to listen? Because by the very nature of your own argument, you might as well be saying "They aren't going to listen to us". 

And like fair enough in terms of support. I'm not asking anyone who dislikes Forces to support it. I've always been a person who just feels we should wait til we get a glimpse of the full game to get an idea of things because we all know marketing material might not be an accurate depiction of the game. Plenty of movies are mismarketed, plenty of games are marketed to the wrong audience, leading to underselling and such, and there's so much misconception and false footage in our current gaming era that I honestly believe the only real determination is being able to see everything as a completed product and objectively. 

Tolerating mediocrity isn't supporting it. The way you're making it sound like is anyone who dared buy Forces and even enjoyed it is supporting what you dislike about the game, and that really isn't the way to go. It's because a lot of us can look past the issues and enjoy something that isn't great, but can still be a fun time. It's up to you to determine if you can find fun in the game and it's reasonable if you can't, but saying trying to find positive things about the game or enjoying it is supporting SEGA being lazy isn't accurate. There's a very fine line between acknowledging that there's issues with Forces or any game for that matter, but enjoying it, and flat out blindly praising/hating it.

You're trying to take a stance that my point is asking people to buy the game and support it and hope the positive is improved next time. That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying remove your feelings and take an objective stance of what the game does right and does wrong. Acknowledge what it has done right compared to other past experiences, because positive feedback is as important as negative feedback. That doesn't amount to "your opinion doesn't matter until you buy the game, go buy it, support it etc".

In the same vain, I'm not telling people to support it either by talking about wanting the game to bomb, but as someone who had has been studying game development for three years now and is hoping to make a career in the field someday, there are far more serious consequences to a game bombing than just "oh well we made a tiny misfire, guess we better go fix that". 

Budgets and developmental time go into a game. Massive budgets for that matter. A game bombing isn't just a tiny mistake and we move on, it's a "Oh shit, we lost a ton of money on this product and we have no real direction to go in, what the fuck are we going to do from here???". A game bombing can effectively screw with the entire series, leading to budgets being completely cut, less developmental time and more. It's not easy to just turn around and say for a game to bomb and pray that they magically get the picture and suddenly pump out something cool. If anything, it can be a complete hindrance to the development team as a whole and something that effects the series for years to come until they decide there's no massive risk in trying to make another one.

But in the end, I still don't even understand what your argument against me is meant to be. I've never said that Forces isn't mediocre, that we should support it, that we should keep allowing SEGA/Sonic Team to do this. I never said to keep supporting the series if you dislike it, I never said Sonic Team was incapable of this or that. What I said is despite Forces' failings, there was good in there. Stuff you might disagree with, but still a lot that many would say was good. There were positive aspects to the game, and it's important to state said positives along with the criticisms so there's as much guidance as possible if SEGA/Sonic Team decide to finally start accepting said feedback (which hopefully they are when the game itself comes with a survey). 

Because said criticisms only can cause even more confusion on what's wanted and can cause things that might've been a step in the right direction to completely fall on it's face and be lost. If you said "The story in Forces sucked" without looking at anything that might be considered at least a step towards the right direction, then we're going to end up having SEGA and Sonic Team go right back to Step 1 and say "well time to go back to the bro jokes and overexplaining our humour with no serious stakes whatsoever". If you go more in detail and explain ideas that could've worked but went wrong somewhere else along the lines, that's giving more indication of what you actually liked and what you actually disliked, and hopefully will end up realising better what actually worked. 

Now, it really comes down to your personal taste if you can see positives or negatives in the game, but in terms of actually trying to combat mediocrity? If all you're doing is listing down the criticisms and no positives whatsoever without really trying to find said positives, you're basically just saying "scrap everything, work from scratch and don't fuck it up again". Obviously, that and not buying the game if you feel that way, but that again comes down to your personal tastes. No one should really be getting judged as "tolerating mediocrity" for enjoying something you didn't and buying it. 

Edit: To clarify one of the above points since I was a bit unclear, what I'm saying about not trying to find positives is it's one thing to do what Sonikko has done for example and analsised the game, legitimately searched for positives/negatives and come to the conclusion that there wasn't many positives, compared to liking stuff about the game, but focusing completely on criticisms while stating there's no saving grace in the game. It's really a tricky tightrope because really, when I say objectively looking at the game, I mean taking a legit attempt to see if there's positive factors, ideas and concepts that could've worked.

But then, that all depends if SEGA wants to actually take the criticism on board, and really that's up in the air if that's going to happen. If not, at least Mania has been set up for sequels?

Well my main point with that post is how you felt "this isn't how you fight mediocrity". That's the only point even closely related to my original point, after all. :V

With the way my thoughts on the situation are, I don't think my stance on the rest of the argument needs much explaining. Yes, Sonic Team aren't likely to read nuanced opinions of why Forces is bad in general. So what if it can be flipped back around?

I'm not saying it to dismiss people from taking this approach towards the game. I'm saying that your argument that this is the way people should approach the game overall for feedback's sake, doesn't necessitate itself here at all. This approach still has merit in any other form of discussion, it just doesn't send a discernible message in this situation at all.

Hoping for the game to be blasted, and not supporting the game directly - clear, direct messages, is the only thing SEGA themselves listen to. Which... is hypocritical at a glance, as we don't want Sonic as a franchise to sell poorly overall, yes, but it's better when it's something we, as a fanbase, can control, rather than down the road of sheer mediocrity, where people just... stop buying Sonic games because they don't care about it anymore.

At the very least, we still care about him. For the most part, at least.

 

Spoiler

Though why in the world are you saying I'm implying stuff like that later on? Just because someone bought and enjoyed the game - tolerated and supported it - doesn't mean that's worth judging and accusing them for. It's your freaking values and decisions; why would I ever have a problem with that?

 

Fwiw I do approach the game from as analytical and objective a stance as I want for the most part. I've never been on the "Sonic Forces has the worst level design I've seen" bandwagon because I still see it as technically functional and somewhat engaging, which is more than can be said for other games in the series. I never locked down on the "linear hallway" or "the game's all 2D" past Tag Team Green Hill because I saw potential for those viewpoints to be incorrect by then. And for actual merit in the game, for example, at least Classic Sonic actually reacts to the player rolling, unlike Generations handled it. Modern Sonic's jump retains momentum, which is something I've been asking for since the boost formula started. For all the traps SEGA has fallen into all over again with this game's development, at least they understand that the alternate character has to be fast, as they've elaborated on in interviews. That's massive for Sonic Team, as they finally realize one of the biggest complaints against alternate gameplay styles. (probably with the werehog as the catylist)

But outside of a direct dialog towards SEGA, the creators of the game, or the PR team, I'm not beholden to present all my posts as if they're well rounded feedback explicitly of what I like and don't like, what I want to see continued, how I think something is fundamentally flawed, or potential in a certain direction, really. None of my posts are, in fact, and that applies to everyone else on here. 

Frankly, I don't have the time or energy for that anymore. And even then, I want to say stuff with what I post, not just read out a collection of my general thoughts verbatim, no matter the dialog. Back when RoL was releasing, I'm sure everyone saw me as a shill for the game with how much I argued for it. But behind the scenes, where it wasn't an echo chamber of negativity, I was just as miffed at the game as everyone else, with different reasons in mind. Talking to friends about the game who didn't even know about the game was so refreshing after feeling obligated to play devil's advocate for the series since day 1 for the sake of it.

Does it portray me as a more objective individual? No. Does it send ideal feedback? No. But do I care much about that on a simple fansite in hundreds of one-and-done discussions?... not really.


And yes, I realize that a game bombing can be cataclysmic towards the development team or process. And I'm not even sure it would lead to 100% positive benefits, either, no. No one can be, unless it's actually as dire as, say, Boom being a main series game and replacement for the Modern games. I'm not asking for the game to flat-out bomb, though either. Just for critics to be loud enough for SEGA to acknowledge, per the norm, and underpreform to the point that we, if we as a fanbase really feel this way, show that we feel mediocrity is not something worth propagating. (which again, does not mean I'm judging someone for having different values than me for the series. It's merely a hope from my perspective)


In the end, though, you're still focusing on the attitude I and others are taking with Forces as if we're weighing pros and cons individually. We're not even focusing on that. We're focusing on the fact that Sonic Team, yet again, as a AAA game development studio, failed to construct a game that was anything past mediocre, fufilling no potential, containing no full thought, and falling into the same traps the team has exhibited in their past 20 years, despite actually acquiring new staff and talent at multiple junctures, and having the time and lack of pressure to handle it.

We're not weighing the pros and cons of what's valuable to us as individuals, be it boost, story, gameplay, budget, graphics, tone, direction, or whathaveyou. We're looking at the product as a whole, because that's what's most important right now. "Maybe Sonic Team will listen" isn't exactly a compelling reason to shut down this angle of approach, as honestly, it's just as farfetched as Sonic Team being revitalized as a competent game development studio in the first place... In which case... what would they need us for, actually?

 

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8 hours ago, KHCast said:

Also im not getting this "it's a step in the right direction" praise I've seen tons of reviewers on YouTube bring up. Personally I think this only shows it's going backwards 

Haven't watched the videos, but I'd assume it's in the sense of it being a better game than Boom and perhaps Lost World.

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I'm having a hard time reconciling the idea that Sonic Team bigwigs giving the Sonic Mania developers a shot is enough of a coup for the franchise that it offsets fifteen years of mediocrity to occasional outright wretchedness and even more occasional quality (a sort of drudgery so ingrained that it has caused a revisionist idea that it goes back twenty-five years instead) and puts those Sonic Team members in an overall positive good light; yet Mania somehow also wasn't enough of an impact (nor was the positive reception and overall good vibes the game has gotten, along with the team's other work for the franchise officially) since replacing those bigwigs who have steered the franchise so badly (and a couple of the names have been the same for a long ass time) could maybe possibly theoretically jeopardize everything since apparently no one in the entirety of Sega is capable of processing market reception.

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I think that this idea: http://www.seganerds.com/2013/08/06/iizuka-color-powers-will-be-standard-in-future-sonic-games/ should be reconsidered after Forces. It was good for Colors (all stages) and Generations (Planet Wisp and Tropical Forest being the Colors´ stage for anniversary), but after that it shouldn´t have been used IMO.

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20 minutes ago, superman43 said:

I think that this idea: http://www.seganerds.com/2013/08/06/iizuka-color-powers-will-be-standard-in-future-sonic-games/ should be reconsidered after Forces. It was good for Colors (all stages) and Generations (Planet Wisp and Tropical Forest being the Colors´ stage for anniversary), but after that it shouldn´t have been used IMO.

Wishful thinking at this point that Iizuka will realize he is just screwing up the franchise more and more with his decisions.

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Review on the Slovak site: http://www.sector.sk/recenzia/31603/sonic-forces.htm
 

Score: 5.0

Pluses: avatar and character design, some good levels with retro feeling, music and dubbing, good-looking

Minuses: not-interesting, short, not using full potential of: levels, OC, guns (wispons), character differences

At the end, they advise Mania for Sonic fans plus they hope something good will happen in the "main series".

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On 11/15/2017 at 10:50 AM, superman43 said:

I think that this idea: http://www.seganerds.com/2013/08/06/iizuka-color-powers-will-be-standard-in-future-sonic-games/ should be reconsidered after Forces. It was good for Colors (all stages) and Generations (Planet Wisp and Tropical Forest being the Colors´ stage for anniversary), but after that it shouldn´t have been used IMO.

They didn’t even work as early as Lost World, and even Colors/Gens has some issues with them at points!

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On 17. 11. 2017 at 12:50 AM, Miragnarok said:

They didn’t even work as early as Lost World, and even Colors/Gens has some issues with them at points!

yes, that´s what I wanted to say... Colors had introduced them, ok, stay in there... Gens was a celebration, so it´s ok to have them in a stage from Sonic Colors. But it´s absolutely pointless to have them in Lost World and purely miserable using them in Forces.

 

EDIT: One thing I found out. Iron Fortress has the ultimate segment of stage scripted (you have to hit the booster or do a good Drop Dash). This is downgrade from even S4 Ep I and Ep II ! Whoops S4 alert.

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On 11/15/2017 at 1:50 PM, superman43 said:

I think that this idea: http://www.seganerds.com/2013/08/06/iizuka-color-powers-will-be-standard-in-future-sonic-games/ should be reconsidered after Forces. It was good for Colors (all stages) and Generations (Planet Wisp and Tropical Forest being the Colors´ stage for anniversary), but after that it shouldn´t have been used IMO.

The wisps were just there in Forces because they were in the previous games. No actually care to explain why they were a part of the story even though that would be easy enough to accomplish.

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On the opposite end of the spectrum to offset Game Grumps enjoyment of the game, Super Best Friends with Woolie and Matt definitely goes hard on this even disappointed with the Avatar creation and the usual good commentary.

And speaking of Super Best Friends, Liam on Rising Superstream plays the entire game, clocking in at 3 and a half hours (so spoilers I guess if you're wanting to watch it).

Spoiler

You could see his excitement/enthusiasm slowly fades away as he plays and finishes the game.

 

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9 hours ago, AdventChild said:

On the opposite end of the spectrum to offset Game Grumps enjoyment of the game, Super Best Friends with Woolie and Matt definitely goes hard on this even disappointed with the Avatar creation and the usual good commentary.

And speaking of Super Best Friends, Liam on Rising Superstream plays the entire game, clocking in at 3 and a half hours (so spoilers I guess if you're wanting to watch it).

  Hide contents

You could see his excitement/enthusiasm slowly fades away as he plays and finishes the game.

 

Liam's reaction to the game really hurts. During his time with the Best Friends he was the only one going to bat for the Sonic series, and he's rewarded with this. I feel for him.

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Surprising or not surprising if you consider Black Friday/Cyber Monday weekend, Sonic Forces (N-Switch Bonus Edition) is back on the list at #42 and how it's now marked down at $25 along with it rated 3.5 stars just after a couple of weeks from its release.

https://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames#3

Although a week late, Rageselect AKA Ex-The Loading Bar of Spill.com fame gives their take on the game and they're less than thrilled by it to say the least yet still brings in some funny commentary.

Spoiler

Also, Matt in part 2 saying if Infinite = Boom! Sonic would probably be an interesting M. Night twist and would make Classic Sonic's appearance in the game more sense story wise.

 

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So in the end, Sonic Forces ended up with a lower Metacritic score than Sonic Lost World. I’m...surprised. I thought it would end up about equal or just a bit higher even, but 58? Damn.

And yeah I know only 34 reviews have been counted towards that score, but it makes me wonder. If Sega had actually sent out review codes to critics, do you think the score would be higher with more reviews or about the same? Just something to think about.

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On 11/23/2017 at 2:28 PM, Gabz Girl said:

So in the end, Sonic Forces ended up with a lower Metacritic score than Sonic Lost World. I’m...surprised. I thought it would end up about equal or just a bit higher even, but 58? Damn.

And yeah I know only 34 reviews have been counted towards that score, but it makes me wonder. If Sega had actually sent out review codes to critics, do you think the score would be higher with more reviews or about the same? Just something to think about.

Legit surprised by this. I mean, I'll give Forces a ton of flack but of the two it had a clearer vision of what it wanted to be overall.

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Remember that reviews, even the so-called professional ones are not a set science. These numbers are reflective of the person's opinion at the time of release/playthrough, and don't even follow the same scale and weights.

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