Sonic Forces Reviews Thread

[Razule]

6 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

I think the polygon review was good except for its assumption that fans will enjoy Forces more. Um, no, the story is a big wet piece of shit if you're familiar with the characters, and the whole create-a-character thing would've been relevant maybe 10 years ago. 

I mean.. there are plenty of fans that enjoy it.

[Celestia]

I expect the only result of a negative consensus to be the higher ups mismanaging the team even more. I genuinely think the main reason for the huge step back from Generations can be put down to how they're scrambling to find people to work on these games. Like, putting three level designers total on 3(.5) gameplay styles? Unleashed had three on the daytime stages and three on the nighttime stages IIRC, which isn't much better but y'know...that's why they scaled it down to one gameplay style with Colours and then got more designers for Generations.

(And yeah, yeah, "four years." Not sure if I believe this game was actually in development for that long, to be honest. But it's also possible things just went really wrong for those four years, which I could see considering Boom happened in that time.)

Anyway, what I'm expecting is even more people getting fired and/or leaving. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the team aside from some key people got booted at this point since, as I see it, SEGA doesn't really care about 'em anyway. It's a shame because I think there's a lot of talent in there that's just being held back--and not just the art team and composers, though as always I appreciate their hard work too.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

5 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Although back then they at least had competent developers and people with a generally clear vision for the franchise to compensate, even if the execution needed refining. Now all they have is a bunch of tired old hasbeens surrounded by novice designers, and no idea of what to actually do with Sonic, with only a few people knowing what to do but not in any position to do anything about it.

When I read "tired old hasbeens" I pictured Iizuka-san's shit-eating grin. Instant laughter. 

[CleverSonicUsername]

If the reason you're rooting for bad reviews is this notion that Sonic team will take away anything from this that they can later spin into a good game, I wouldn't get your hopes up. For almost 20 years they've struggled to get Sonic working in 3D consistently, often learning nothing from their failures or taking the wrong message entirely. Even the 3D Sonic games generally considered good fail to make a splash in the genre large enough to set them apart from their contemporaries.

If at this point Sonic Team hasn't got it, they're never going to get it, short of a major shakeup in their management that results in a totally new approach and renewed passion for the franchise. They simply aren't competent developers and this is compounded by the fact that they lack any clear cohesive vision of what they want this property to be. I have doubts that bad reviews for a mediocre game is going to suddenly break tradition.

[Indigo Rush]

5 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

When I read "tired old hasbeens" I pictured Iizuka-san's shit-eating grin. Instant laughter. 

I'm about to go ape if I see another person speak disrespectfully of Iizuka-san like this. 

Y'all are being immature and have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

[Celestia]

Iizuka's another example of mismanagement imo, and...not in the way people think. I'd rather the guy be put on level design or another series or something, rather than being "in charge" of Sonic as a whole. It doesn't seems like he's hands on at all, the dude's basically Sonic Team's PR guy (so, a punching bag) these days.

[Sonicka]

I swear every-time I see or enter one of these threads it's with so much trepidation these days. It's literally like trying to navigate playing through a stage in Sonic '06 - you can't help enter because it's Sonic... but you still know you're in for one hell of an uneven ride.

So, so far we basically have one (well, four) positive reviews and one average huh? So, are Famitsu's review summaries literally just that? Is there seriously nothing before it? It's kinda weird which I agree, but you can't really discount it... otherwise we may as well just say that of Polygon's 5/10 and any other review outlet after if you don't agree with their credence. That is super brief though.

45 minutes ago, A235 said:

I don't think they will learn from this game's epic failure. They have repeated their mistake since SLW

I think in fairness the only mistake Sonic Team continue to make is deviating from a good formula instead of trying to improve on it - almost every Sonic title is a new experiment with them... and whilst there isn't any harm in this (because what gaming company doesn't do this?) the problem is their mastery of 3D Sonic. At least with Unleashed --> Colours --> Generations there was consistently in the mix leading to a damn fine quality outlet for the 20th Anniversary.

Sonic Lost World's only mistake is them not further improving on this boost formula set down and is a huge deviation from the norm laid out. On the flipside though SLW is in it's own way a fantastic little title, especially in that they finally brought a full 3D Sonic game onto the 3DS, that's an achievement in itself. For me the real crime is that they didn't sequel SLW and home in on improvements on a second run with the Parkour Mechanic - which in theory was a really good move, just not implemented as well as it could have been. But instead Sonic Team returned to the 'boost' type gameplay idea after being away for a while - a good or bad thing? Anyone's guess till they've played it themselves.

32 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

  Hide contents

Sonic 06 was a failure that they never forgot, yet they still learned nothing.

 

Nonsense. Were the 4 proceeding mainline titles that terrible?

I agree that Sonic '06 is a title no will else will ever let them forget about for sure. But what really is there to learn from? I'm sure the development team where more than aware it was a hastily rushed out and unfinished game made to meet store shelves in time for the 15th anniversary, how must they feel about that? The only other time something as bad as this happened was with Boom - and that wasn't even developed by Sonic Team. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

41 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

I'm glad the game got rightfully blasted for its faults by Polygon, and hope the consensus of other reviewers is similar.

Sonic Team needs  some serious tough love if they're to improve. That means bad games get bad reviews and - more importantly - bad sales. So yes, I do hope Forces bombs, both critically and commercially - not because I hate Sonic, but because Sonic can't get better if people keep coddling Sonic Team and they're never forced to improve their own incredibly low standards of quality.

Bring on the bad reviews, I say. Let this be a mistake Sonic Team will never forget.

You are aware that a game bombing isn't just a "oh well let's learn from our mistakes and try again!" situation, right? There's actual consequences from a game bombing that can effect this series for years to come. For one, depending on the budget that Forces was given, if the game bombs that badly, then one possible outcome is that SEGA will slice the funding for a next game in the series. Why? Because it's not financially safe to take that kind of momentary risk again. The last time this kind of risk was taken lead to complete and utter failure by all means.

The exact thing happened to the Ratchet and Clank series. All 4 One, which was a full-budgeted game decided to try be experimental with it's gameplay and focus on a co-op new gameplay style. Obviously, this didn't work very well and it didn't sell the greatest. This lead to the next three games in the series not getting anywhere near full-budget. Full Frontal Assault was a cheap PSN title which was a co-op tower defence game, Into the Nexus was a way more shorter finale to the Future series, and the movie reboot, while pretty great and closer to a full-budget title was shorter and didn't hit the same quality of earlier titles in the series.

I get what you mean here. That if the game fails, or if the reviewers dislike it, Sonic Team will have to take a critical eye to themselves and fix something or other. But saying "i hope it bombs" has far more consequences than just that. A game failing, especially after a trainwreck like Rise of Lyric could potentially cause far more damage than good. But the game doesn't actively have to get to that point to make that critical restructure happen. Assassin's Creed Unity sold alright enough and the utter humiliation Ubisoft got from it's issues and bugs were enough to force them to reshape and restructure themselves with Syndicate and Origins. 

To be honest, I think Celestia could be onto something with this: 

8 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I expect the only result of a negative consensus to be the higher ups mismanaging the team even more. I genuinely think the main reason for the huge step back from Generations can be put down to how they're scrambling to find people to work on these games. Like, putting three level designers total on 3(.5) gameplay styles? Unleashed had three on the daytime stages and three on the nighttime stages IIRC, which isn't much better but y'know...that's why they scaled it down to one gameplay style with Colours and then got more designers for Generations.

The boost gameplay isn't something that's explicitly doomed and can't be made to work. Generations showed that the standard design things that people like in Sonic such as multiple pathways, rewarding skill through these pathways, and such could work. Generations' levels also had a decent length and replay value, the main problem was just the fact there wasn't many stages in the game to begin with. But the sheer fact SEGA feel the need to keep tossing in multiple gameplay styles and such only boost the problems further. As the saying goes, a jack of all trades is master of none. When focus has to go onto three characters, that means none of them can really get much focus. 

I honestly wish SEGA would just stop using Classic Sonic as some kind of clutch. I'm a Modern fan. I like Advance and Rush over Sonic 1, 2, and CD. Generations is quite possibly my favourite in the series, despite the game's shortcomings because Modern's gameplay is so much fun IMO. I just wish I could get a game that focuses on what they're trying to sell to people in the modern titles as opposed to trying to cram shit in to appeal to everyone, especially in the same year which had Mania to already appeal to Classic fans. All it ends up doing is taking focus off other characters.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

If at this point Sonic Team hasn't got it, they're never going to get it, short of a major shakeup in their management that results in a totally new approach and renewed passion for the franchise. 

Then we can hope for that.

Hope that Sega finally has enough with Sonic Team and totally restructures the whole lot of them. Sega's in this for the money, and if Sonic Team harms their brand and costs them profits, they could feasibly step in and change things.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

1 minute ago, Celestia said:

Iizuka's another example of mismanagement imo, and...not in the way people think. I'd rather the guy be put on level design or another series or something, rather than being "in charge" of Sonic as a whole. It doesn't seems like he's hands on at all, the dude's basically Sonic Team's PR guy (so, a punching bag) these days.

That's what I meant by shit eating grin. He eats shit for a living. But he also certainly has a hand in Sonic's direction.

 

2 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'm about to go ape if I see another person speak disrespectfully of Iizuka-san like this. 

Y'all are being immature and have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

Nothing will change with this mindset. 

[Balding Spider]

Quote

Tonally, the story is a mess. There are plenty of chili dog jokes and speeches on the power of friendship, sure, but at the same time, the game begins with Sonic being beaten nearly to death by a Sinister Six-like coalition of his rogues’ gallery. With Our Hero vanquished, Eggman quickly conquers the world and throws Sonic in prison to be tortured for months on end. This grim twist feels wildly inappropriate, like the worst excesses of teenage, try-hard fan fiction turned into primary text.

This might be the most accurate depiction of the story's tone thus far.

[Dee Dude]

9 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

That's what I meant by shit eating grin. He eats shit for a living. But he also certainly has a hand in Sonic's direction.

Nothing will change with this mindset. 

Real mature dude, it's one thing to criticize their tactics but it ain't when you're basically insulting an actual person over a video game series.

[Razule]

Score's around what I expected, but on the low end. Overall review's pretty fair for a Sonic review, I agree with most of the points. Didn't think the Avatar would be viewed so positively.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

11 minutes ago, Son-icka said:

Nonsense. Were the 4 proceeding mainline titles that that terrible?

I agree that Sonic '06 is a title no will else will ever let them forget about for sure. But what really is there to learn from? I'm sure the development team where more than aware it was a hastily rushed out and unfinished game made to meet store shelves in time for the 15th anniversary, how must they feel about that? The only other time something as bad as this happened was with Boom - and that wasn't even developed by Sonic Team. 

I was kinda implying that Sonic Adventures 1 and 2 were at least competent and at least had passion and decent competence for the time (despite not aging well and being subjected to retroactive criticism). Obviously Unleashed is one of the most obvious demonstrations of passion from the Sonic Team in spite of the misguided elements in it's design. Despite my personal dislike of Colors, it was just okay, Generations was good for what it was, and I have no real opinion on Heroes, Shadow, and Lost World due to not playing them (though I don't care for the story of Lost World).

[Baconjack]

Read the review, and completely agree with the points they've said. I've taken a look at the bosses and they aren't that great. But I wonder if the automation is really that bad to make it such a bad game in Polygon's point of view? I'd blast Polygon if they said Generations was good considering all the automation that game had but criticising Forces for exactly the same thing. Keep in mind that Unleashed was getting 5/10's back in the day from the gaming press.

Hopefully this means that ST will move away from the Boost engine and move towards something fresh and new going forward.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Just now, Dee Dude said:

Real fucking mature dude, it's one thing to criticize their tactics but it ain't you're basically insulting them as actual people over a video game series.

.... What?

I thought it was pretty well agreed upon that major changes need to take place at Sonic Team, and they aren't gonna happen if SoJ doesn't recognize their faults. Do you really think this tired, apathetic man is the same Iizuka who went to fucking South America for inspiration on Sonic Adventure? No way in hell. 

[CleverSonicUsername]

6 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Then we can hope for that.

Hope that Sega finally has enough with Sonic Team and totally restructures the whole lot of them. Sega's in this for the money, and if Sonic Team harms their brand and costs them profits, they could feasibly step in and change things.

I still wouldn't expect it to turn out great if that did happen. My post mostly points the finger at Sonic Team's own shortcomings, but I should be clear that SEGA corporate is a huge part of the issue too, and I have a lot more faith in them totally bungling any sort of restructuring than I do with them getting the right people where they need to be.

Edit: Regarding Izuka, I like the guy and I think he's probably got plenty to contribute, but his current position and SEGA's management might not be playing to his strengths. There definitely seems to be a palpable sense of confusion, and to some degree a lack of passion, from these games. I don't think and don't want to imply the source of this is Izuka, but rather something more built into the foundations of how Sonic Team and SEGA approach the franchise.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

2 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Although back then they at least had competent developers and people with a generally clear vision for the franchise to compensate, even if the execution needed refining. Now all they have is a bunch of tired old hasbeens surrounded by novice designers, and no idea of what to actually do with Sonic, with only a few people knowing what to do but not in any position to do anything about it.

Well...Back then Sega was squeezing every bit of Sonic because of his success. You can see that through all of his other side titles, including games like Knuckle Chaotix(I also don't know about Sonic CD lol).

They've been the same honestly. As good as Sonic 3 was(as my previous post stated) they sold the game at full price for half a game. 

Quote

Now all they have is a bunch of tired old hasbeens surrounded by novice designers, and no idea of what to actually do with Sonic

I feel sorry for them. The team doesn't have much of an idea on how to design a Sonic game all due to poor direction on the series.

[Celestia]

Just now, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Nothing will change with this mindset. 

SEGA will surely read your shitposts about Iizuka and become enlightened.

[Carbo]

7 minutes ago, Sir Laptop said:

Read the review, and completely agree with the points they've said. I've taken a look at the bosses and they aren't that great. But I wonder if the automation is really that bad to make it such a bad game in Polygon's point of view? I'd blast Polygon if they said Generations was good considering all the automation that game had but criticising Forces for exactly the same thing. Keep in mind that Unleashed was getting 5/10's back in the day from the gaming press.

Hopefully this means that ST will move away from the Boost engine and move towards something fresh and new going forward.

Sonic Unleashed's problems were not the same problems Forces had to deal with - mainly because Forces' biggest problem is the festering inability to iterate on an eight-year old formula which this time around couldn't be more blatantly complacent if they tried.

[Sonicfan7]

The behind-the-scenes and development of this game is truly fascinating. I would like to watch a documentary on it.

They had SIX YEARS to work on it. How did it go so wrong? 

[Wraith]

I don't expect much good to come from the game bombing but I don't think it seriously matters if people feel that way. It could go in any amount of directions. It's a chance to shake things up for the better, and honestly, the last batch of Sonic games have been my least favorite in the series anyway, so I can't see it getting that much worse for me if they DID only make mania games or slashed the budget or something.  06 being a critical failure and underselling did lead to Unleashed within the Sonic series, after all. That kind of drive with Mania as an influence could potentially lead to something  special.

Basically, I'm apathetic, but I'm interested in a restructure happening at Sonic Team and I don't care what causes it. I get how the "it should bomb" people feel, and there's not really much harm in saying it. 


 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

5 minutes ago, Celestia said:

SEGA will surely read your shitposts about Iizuka and become enlightened.

What am I supposed to even say? What am I doing wrong? Someone referred to the entirety of Sonic Team as "tired old hasbeens with novice programmers," I get a good laugh out of it, and I'm the bad guy? How does that even make sense?

Also no, Sega won't read my shitposts, because I haven't made any. 

[Ultimate Victory 64]

3 hours ago, Sonicfan7 said:

The behind-the-scenes and development of this game is truly fascinating. I would like to watch a documentary on it.

They had SIX YEARS to work on it. How did it go so wrong? 

Technically 4 years

[Tornado]

Iizuka never should have been put back in charge of the series again in the first place after Sonic Team USA's ignominious end. I remember specifically complaining about it when he ended running things almost immediately after returning to Sonic Team proper in 2008. I suspect Sega has simply run out of people with any actual experience with the franchise or will to act as the public punching bag for its repeated failings.

 

 

 

That should not be confused with actual competence.