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Awoo.

So, the reason why Infinite became evil...


nilesdobbs

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Looking at the game, Shadow DLC, comics and lyrics of his song, Infinite's character depend on one thing: did Shadow messed up his face or not.

Basically speaking, he's reminiscent of Scourge from Archie Preboot. He was a small fry baddie with a big ego, then good hedgehog beat him up and destroyed how he viewed himself and villain swore to grow stronger to become top dog again. Scourge wasn't a complex villain, he just had neat personality. Also, he wasn't a drama queen about his transformation, he just grew tired of being a loser.

So if Infinite's face is fine he's just a big ninny with a fragile ego. But I think alternatively is quite possible. Okay, Shadow had no reason to beat him up that badly, but let's face it, he wouldn't go 'oops, I went too far, I'm sorry." It doesn't look as if he was that brutal, but perhaps Sega wanted to avoid 'ooh, too edgy!' criticism. If that's the case, it's kinda classy of them to never show Infinite's face to let the player decide what happened. If we have seen his face at the start, and it was hidden after the beatdown, implications would be obvious and thus 'too edgy' criticism would follow.

Joker, Dr. Doom, Two-Face, many classic villains were born from the damage done to their face. I think such a painful and shocking experience could cause him to fixate on the last mental activity they had (duality of morality, live is a bad joke or you being weak). How we went from this point to Infinite is the vaguest part of the story, but I can assume that process of becoming Infinite was risky and painful, but he didn't care.

Lastly, I want to point out the funny parrel between Shadow/Infinite, and Infinite/Rookie. Shadow beat him up and taught him fear but let him live. Infinite molded that feat into a motivation to grow stronger. Then he has petty revenge on the world, beating up his foes and letting they ran away to show "Ha, whose weak now, universe?" and look at that, Rookie is basically caused of his downfall. His origin is his end.

I hope I impressed someone with that short lecture, I work on it. Still, despite the rich psychological profile, Infinite's personality is by the numbers, it boils down to 'I am strong = I have a huge ego".

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1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

So if Infinite's face is fine he's just a big ninny with a fragile ego. But I think alternatively is quite possible. Okay, Shadow had no reason to beat him up that badly, but let's face it, he wouldn't go 'oops, I went too far, I'm sorry."

No because shadow is a character who doesn't have to do that because he holds back all the time, shadow is a character if he wanted to, could just take his inhibitor rings off and burn people. Who could stopped time and brutalized infinite, who could have did any number of worse things to infinite, that teleport him and kick him in the back twice. He did nothing special, and that isn't a legitimate plot point because the character has powers that could have resulted in much worse. 

I understand you trying to find value in that, but shadow isn't the guy for that plot point to work for because we saw what shadow did and shadow holds back literally all the time. If it was knuckles, then maybe we could have this argument. 

Or maybe, just maybe they did the smart thing and maybe infinite's back story was related to sonic and crew or shadow in his game fucking up saving the world and ruined his life, then we could have this conversations. 

But as it stands, he's a guy who got kicked in the back, a guy called him weak, and he got pissy about it. And the guy who called him weak as had way more to be upset about, so excuse me if infinite's plight doesn't really register to me on the " should I give a shit about this character" scale

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Shadow messing up Infinite’s face doesn’t make sense, because in the comic we get a clear look at his face and he already has a white scar across the right side. Unless off course Shadow ruined it even more...well, either that or Infinite is just a whiny joke of a character who wears a mask because “I’m not weak uuraagh!” 

 

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13 hours ago, kalion said:

I think the best theory was Infinite being the Avatar's friend twisted into becoming Evil.

The Song''s lyrics fit incredibly well into this scenario and it'd give a reason and motive as to why the Avatar is on the resistance team.

But he wasn't twisted. He was already a thief, and then joined up with Eggman of his own free will without needing to be corrupted by the Ruby.

Infinite's just a bad person, and as far as the narrative of the game (and comic) is concerned, he always was.

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 Is there a reason why he just vanishes after the last fight with him? He's a real thing and not an illusion so I don't get it. Unless he was an illusion of the real Infinite. Which would be dumb.

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It could been since  the ruby was damaged and made him a glitchy  that had be questions like 

are we going face him again as super sonic? 

are they going to add his theme song ?  Since his theme was nowhere played in the game 

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2 hours ago, Gold knight said:

It could been since  the ruby was damaged and made him a glitchy  that had be questions like 

are we going face him again as super sonic? 

are they going to add his theme song ?  Since his theme was nowhere played in the game 

It played when he fought Silver.

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7 hours ago, Razule said:

It played when he fought Silver.

Hu never herd it play was just instrument version? His song was meant to play as you fight him only the first part of the song plays in all infinite fights but the rest of the theme is Remixed I think since I don't hear the Singer. 

 

Edit: I herd em now  his 3 themes 

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22 hours ago, speedfreak said:

 Is there a reason why he just vanishes after the last fight with him? He's a real thing and not an illusion so I don't get it. Unless he was an illusion of the real Infinite. Which would be dumb.

We assume there were two different writers working on this. One for Forces, another for Episode Shadow. That or it does what most long running japanese manga/game franchises do and retcons itself but at breakneck speeds.

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NameNotFound the Jackal had to die and be rebuilt as a living illusion to use the ruby properly. That's what we see in Eggman's lab at the start of the game; Eggman's various attempts at manifesting an illusion with NotWeak the Jackal's form and personality.

...maybe.

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I'll be the odd one out and say that I think Infinite had the pieces of story and motivation to make for an interesting villain, but once again was executed really badly and was also relayed to us in a really disjointed manner. here's how I think it could have been handled:

Like maybe instead of Infinite being claimed to be badass and then us getting underwhelmed by him due to how cruddy his backstory and in-game presentation was, maybe instead have him be an old childhood bully of the avatar, who grew up thinking he was a big time hotshot (shown via cutscenes of their youth or something?). Then as an adult leader of a gang of mercenaries (all of whom are bullies following the biggest bully, him), he takes advantage of the chaos caused by Eggman's invasion to loot, pillage and cause harm to civilian towns because it allows him to indulge his sadistic tendencies and boost his ego.

And then have him get steamrolled by Sonic who doesn't even know he's there, or just doesn't really see anything noteworthy about it. Humiliated, and with his followers abandoning him for his embarassing reaction to his defeat, he tries to either attack Eggman in an attempt to salvage his pride, or goes to him in an attempt to get more power...to salvage his wounded pride. Either way, Eggman trounces him and points out to him his flawed way of handling things, including his tendency to let his sadism get in the way, and how he lacks any clear goals or focus to use his skills properly, unlike Eggman who wants to take over the world to remake it all in his own image). As a result, Infinite decides to subject himself to Eggman's experimental weapons tech (Phantom Ruby) and becomes his protege, becoming more cold and more refined in his use of sadism as well as becoming more focused on an overall goal instead of just being sadistic for it's own sake.

As such, when he fights Sonic later on, he's much more capable (see my status in regards to how he deals with it: https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-seneddtor-missile/?status=897030&type=status) and is able to continue his reign of terror he had before. During this, he reencounters his favorite punching bag, the Avatar, and does what he did back in the game, only with more of a personal bent to it.

And then we can still have roughly everything that happens in the actual story, only instead of Sonic beating Infinite, have him be the Avatar's final opponent as a capstone to the Avatar's character development, while Sonic deals with Eggman personally. Maybe even have this little bit of dialogue between Sonic (or Tails?) and Infinite after he loses for the last time:

Quote

Infinite: How...HOW!? How can I lose!? I have the power! I'm far stronger, smarter and faster than you'd ever be! HOW CAN I HAVE LOST TO THIS WEAKLING? THIS REJECT?! THIS...NOBODY!?

Sonic/Tails: That's cause you're still just a big bully underneath it all the power you claim to have! You talk a big game and you throw your weight around against people who you think are weaker than you, but once you fight against someone who sees through your little illusions, they realize you're nothing to be afraid of!

*insert more dialogue here*

There's actually a lot more I can think of, but basically this would make Infinite more of a dark counterpart to the Avatar character and make them both cases of characters starting off cruddy and growing to be fairly tough, only Infinite would still ultimately lose.

Thoughts?

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6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

NameNotFound the Jackal had to die and be rebuilt as a living illusion to use the ruby properly. That's what we see in Eggman's lab at the start of the game; Eggman's various attempts at manifesting an illusion with NotWeak the Jackal's form and personality.

...maybe.

I always assumed they were future test subjects in progress.

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19 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

I'll be the odd one out and say that I think Infinite had the pieces of story and motivation to make for an interesting villain, but once again was executed really badly and was also relayed to us in a really disjointed manner. here's how I think it could have been handled:

 

I don't know if you are the odd one out, but I agree. 

I would have just had his initial before shadow motivation be, he was someone's who's life was messed up due to sonic and friends saving the world. A lot of people problably lost thier lives during sonic adventure 1 and 2, and especially during shadow the hedgehog.  He probably could have issues with that, maybe somoene he loved or cared for lost their life, and maybe he's upset that this person who treated to destroy the world, and brought aliens to the planet is parading around like some hero. Hence his desire to change the world

He confronts shadow and gets bodied, and then his desire to get stronger makes sense, because now he realizes as he was he can't change the world, so he gets stronger. And actually confronts the heroes and shadow more than he did because he honestly things the world he could make would be a better and safer place than what happens when sonic and crew save the world. 

Sonic and his friends regularly don't think about the aftermath of their actions, its usually day saved, peace out. Its a flaw , its a flaw you could give sonic, so focused on what's ahead he isn't really care about what happens with what he does. Its a flaw all of them could have. It would have made the scene sonic included this time at the end of the game where everyone but shadow seems to care about restoring things to what they were. Having learned that their actions have effects and could hurt people, creating more infnites in the process. 

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't know if you are the odd one out, but I agree. 

I would have just had his initial before shadow motivation be, he was someone's who's life was messed up due to sonic and friends saving the world. A lot of people problably lost thier lives during sonic adventure 1 and 2, and especially during shadow the hedgehog.  He probably could have issues with that, maybe somoene he loved or cared for lost their life, and maybe he's upset that this person who treated to destroy the world, and brought aliens to the planet is parading around like some hero. Hence his desire to change the world

He confronts shadow and gets bodied, and then his desire to get stronger makes sense, because now he realizes as he was he can't change the world, so he gets stronger. And actually confronts the heroes and shadow more than he did because he honestly things the world he could make would be a better and safer place than what happens when sonic and crew save the world. 

Sonic and his friends regularly don't think about the aftermath of their actions, its usually day saved, peace out. Its a flaw , its a flaw you could give sonic, so focused on what's ahead he isn't really care about what happens with what he does. Its a flaw all of them could have. It would have made the scene sonic included this time at the end of the game where everyone but shadow seems to care about restoring things to what they were. Having learned that their actions have effects and could hurt people, creating more infnites in the process. 

While I can see the merit of what you're saying and I do think having that could add some layers into the Sonic/Eggman conflict in future game stories, I was mostly focusing on what was presented to us in the actual Forces game and trying to make it less of a mess.

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31 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

While I can see the merit of what you're saying and I do think having that could add some layers into the Sonic/Eggman conflict in future game stories, I was mostly focusing on what was presented to us in the actual Forces game and trying to make it less of a mess.

I can understand, but I don't think you can unmess this game. I like your attempt, but it would require putting more money and time into the game than they were willing to spend. According to folks datamining the game online, it was about 2 years and it reuses assets from the Olympic games so... take that as you will

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6 hours ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

I'll be the odd one out and say that I think Infinite had the pieces of story and motivation to make for an interesting villain, but once again was executed really badly and was also relayed to us in a really disjointed manner. here's how I think it could have been handled:

Like maybe instead of Infinite being claimed to be badass and then us getting underwhelmed by him due to how cruddy his backstory and in-game presentation was, maybe instead have him be an old childhood bully of the avatar, who grew up thinking he was a big time hotshot (shown via cutscenes of their youth or something?). Then as an adult leader of a gang of mercenaries (all of whom are bullies following the biggest bully, him), he takes advantage of the chaos caused by Eggman's invasion to loot, pillage and cause harm to civilian towns because it allows him to indulge his sadistic tendencies and boost his ego.

And then have him get steamrolled by Sonic who doesn't even know he's there, or just doesn't really see anything noteworthy about it. Humiliated, and with his followers abandoning him for his embarassing reaction to his defeat, he tries to either attack Eggman in an attempt to salvage his pride, or goes to him in an attempt to get more power...to salvage his wounded pride. Either way, Eggman trounces him and points out to him his flawed way of handling things, including his tendency to let his sadism get in the way, and how he lacks any clear goals or focus to use his skills properly, unlike Eggman who wants to take over the world to remake it all in his own image). As a result, Infinite decides to subject himself to Eggman's experimental weapons tech (Phantom Ruby) and becomes his protege, becoming more cold and more refined in his use of sadism as well as becoming more focused on an overall goal instead of just being sadistic for it's own sake.

As such, when he fights Sonic later on, he's much more capable (see my status in regards to how he deals with it: https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-seneddtor-missile/?status=897030&type=status) and is able to continue his reign of terror he had before. During this, he reencounters his favorite punching bag, the Avatar, and does what he did back in the game, only with more of a personal bent to it.

There's actually a lot more I can think of, but basically this would make Infinite more of a dark counterpart to the Avatar character and make them both cases of characters starting off cruddy and growing to be fairly tough, only Infinite would still ultimately lose.

Thoughts?

Yeah this was what I was talking about earlier, I wanted Infinite to have some sort of personal relation to the Avatar. So that he could become the Avatar's ultimate enemy and personal obstacle to overcome at the end too. Substituting Shadow's fight with Sonic makes way more sense, I feel like Shadow was shoehorned in to make for a rushed storyline for the DLC since that was clearly decided on later considering the ONLY SONIC angle they've adhered to for almost a decade now.

I do like the Bully angle you put into it. Intentionally or not, it makes the avatar way more relatable to many kids and us Sonic Fans who probably went through the same kinda thing. It also has a true heartwarming moral for Kids that is'nt the generic anime superpower of teamwork they threw in without making sense. I mean it seemed like Sonic was just there in the story for no reason a lot of the time.

People who keep screaming Sonic is for kids and not for other fans should see this and understand this is how you do a smart kids' game without talking down to them.

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Dunno if anyone's been able to rip models or anything from the steam Version but I'm curious if Infinite was modeled with a face under the mask.  In the episode Shadow cutscene Infinite's mouth muzzle part doesn't match the one he has in the comic, and obscuring it leads me to believe he doesn't have a modeled face, but for a brief moment he appears to have an eye in the cutscene as well, and in certain cutscenes you can see that his eye underneath his mask is separate because his face structure is like all the other characters but his mask is pointed so I'm really curious to know how he was modeled in game. Here is examples of all the design cues I mentioned.

cWpt12n.jpg

Obviously the design difference from the comic to the game model could be chocked up to either laziness or lack of communication between game team vs comic artist (concept art may have differed on his design?) but it seems weird that if he has a modeled face what use is it obscuring it in Episode Shadow?

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22 hours ago, StratusAsterion said:

Dunno if anyone's been able to rip models or anything from the steam Version but I'm curious if Infinite was modeled with a face under the mask.  In the episode Shadow cutscene Infinite's mouth muzzle part doesn't match the one he has in the comic, and obscuring it leads me to believe he doesn't have a modeled face, but for a brief moment he appears to have an eye in the cutscene as well, and in certain cutscenes you can see that his eye underneath his mask is separate because his face structure is like all the other characters but his mask is pointed so I'm really curious to know how he was modeled in game. Here is examples of all the design cues I mentioned.

cWpt12n.jpg

Obviously the design difference from the comic to the game model could be chocked up to either laziness or lack of communication between game team vs comic artist (concept art may have differed on his design?) but it seems weird that if he has a modeled face what use is it obscuring it in Episode Shadow?

Maybe Infinite was made using the Avatar base and they didn't want it to be too obvious.

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My concern is that it always seems that Shadow has some history/connection/ or knowledge of the villain in the plots. Remember Mephiles from 06? Edgy much?

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