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At what point did Sonic Forces lose you?

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The funny thing is, now that the game is out, Classic Sonic is such a weird thing.  He feels more tacked on than I imagined he would on account of taking up less than a third of the game (only 7.33 of the game's 30 main stages/bosses with no bonus/extra stages to his name).  His music also makes him feel out of place with the rest of the game.

And yet on the flipside, his stages are some of the most substantially designed.  They're almost all a good 3-5 minutes long your first time through, and none of them feel unsubstantial in terms of platforming and gimmicks (meanwhile several Sonic stages very much feel unsubstantial and the Avatar ones are often repetitive, either being boring to navigate at ground level or just using Wisps to sail over/through it all).

Doing the speedrunning missions, beating Sonic and Avatar's stages was usually pretty simple and amounted to "just don't make a mistake".  Classic Sonic's actually required a lot of thought, experimentation and practice, particularly in terms of where it was safe and/or practical to use a spin dash, drop dash, or neither.

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I was never hyped as I'm not a big fan of Modern Sonic games, but after Mania I was a little "Let's see if Sega is doing better". Then Green Hill appeared, with that weird ugly tune, and it was all ruined. Oh, and then came the avatar XDD

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For me it was the second that classic Sonic appeared in the trailer.

We should do a petition for Sega to not shove in Classic Sonic in the next modern game, because it's a shame that a story with good potential had to ruined by this elephant in the room.

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The reveal of the custom character. I’m not saying that it turned out to be a completely disastrous idea, but it is not a direction I want taken. When that was revealed, it was incredibly jarring to me.

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Definitely has to be Classic Sonic. Like, sure, you can give us a custom character, you can return ZAVOK, and not, oh, I dunno ANY OTHER OBSCURE/FORGOTTEN MODERN VILLAIN, you can give us a semi-okay vocal thing, but bringing CLASSIC into a Modern game right after Mania? 

That's a bit too far, Sega. 

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On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 5:04 PM, The Man On The Inside said:

The first time we saw double boost and that song played. I hate that song, and after of years of blissful instrumental soundtracks (Sonic Runners hnngg), having a cheesy rock theme with 0/10 vocals was and is a massive step back into the 2000s. Then I reasoned that it wasn't aimed at me, and that's what Sonic Mania was/is for. When I saw that, my thinking went from "can't wait" to "hope it's not a trainwreck" (which thankfully it isn't but still not good enough).

I also hate that song. That 2000s cheesy rock stuff is a bland, vibe killing thing on the whole.

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Honestly, I don't really know if I ever truly got very hyped for the game outside of that one trailer that had certain voiceclips and cutscenes in it with Fist Bump kicking in after the first 10 or so seconds.

It's also probably telling that the only real element that actually interested me was Zavok returning as one of the villains, with the Avatar being at least an interesting gimmick for the game that just so happened to turn out to be one of the highlights.

 

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It never actually lost me. I definitely saw that SOME of the complaints against the game were legitimate, such as with the controls for Modern Sonic and the Avatar (even though I eventually got used to them and they didn't make the game too difficult or impossible to play and enjoy). A bit negative point for me was the black screen with white text about Eggman taking over the world - I REALLY wished they hadn't put that in there and would've actually shown it through cutscenes.

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On 08/11/2017 at 1:44 AM, Sean said:

For most of Forces' history I wasn't ever hyped for it but possessed some level of interest in playing it. My interest was swiftly killed in two steps:

1. The Steam version coming with Denuvo. The way Sega handled Mania pissed me off so badly (especially after I made a point to defend the game's delay, stemming from doubt that Sega would ever do such a thing for their flagship series) that I made a vow to not buy their PC games ever again, and the immediate reveal that Forces would come with it made the decision to save my $40 extremely easy. Unless Sega backpedals on Denuvo in the future, it's unlikely that I'll support their PC releases any further, unless we're talking about a Mania 2 and that's only if I don't have a PS4 or Switch by the time it comes.

Honestly, I think this whole "denuvo revolt" is becoming a little senseless. Pretty much every AAA/big title does have it, and after all, it's the only defense they have against piracy.

---

I think I'm with everyone - disappointment on seeing Classic Sonic (especially after knowing we would have Mania), still holding hopes just to have them all shattered after the first gameplay reveals - extremely linear levels and etc. The definitive last straw was Infinite's trailer - one of the most cringe-worthy things I have saw in that year.

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27 minutes ago, Korke said:

Honestly, I think this whole "denuvo revolt" is becoming a little senseless. Pretty much every AAA/big title does have it, and after all, it's the only defense they have against piracy.

But is it really a defense? They are only delaying the inevitable, their games are gonna get pirated, have no doubt about that. Is it worth pissing off and screwing over your paying customers in a fight you can't win?

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39 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

But is it really a defense? They are only delaying the inevitable, their games are gonna get pirated, have no doubt about that. Is it worth pissing off and screwing over your paying customers in a fight you can't win?

But delaying the inevitable is the whole point of Denuvo. From what I can gather, the mentality is this - the most amount of sales games get are at the launch week/month. So they take anti-tampering measures to give crackers a harder time. Sure, at one point Denuvo was failing pretty hard, with cracks coming out at most a week after release (some even got cracked on launch day), but the latest version just recently got cracked, so I'd say it's doing its job well. It was never about trying to completely eradicate piracy, cuz that'd be stupid way of thinking. Do I like that as a customer? Not really, but I can understand why would companies use the anti-tamper.

Many of the criticisms about it "killing SSDs" or hogging resources are also just based on speculation (at least I couldn't fight any definitive evidence that Denuvo does that(and before posting that one blog post about reasons why Denuvo is bad, that doesn't show any definitive evidence either, so please don't bother)). The only thing that is outright bad is the need for online authentication - if you've been offline for several days, you can't play the game unless you go back online.

Now I wonder if including Denuvo made sense for SEGA from the financial standpoint in this instance - the game sold quite poorly on Steam (~27k owners as of today), and apparently Denuvo ain't cheap, so...

 

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7 minutes ago, Bobnik said:

But delaying the inevitable is the whole point of Denuvo. From what I can gather, the mentality is this - the most amount of sales games get are at the launch week/month. So they take anti-tampering measures to give crackers a harder time. Sure, at one point Denuvo was failing pretty hard, with cracks coming out at most a week after release (some even got cracked on launch day), but the latest version just recently got cracked, so I'd say it's doing its job well. It was never about trying to completely eradicate piracy, cuz that'd be stupid way of thinking. Do I like that as a customer? Not really, but I can understand why would companies use the anti-tamper.

Many of the criticisms about it "killing SSDs" or hogging resources are also just based on speculation (at least I couldn't fight any definitive evidence that Denuvo does that). The only thing that is outright bad is the need for online authentication - if you've been offline for several days, you can't play the game unless you go back online.

Now I wonder if including Denuvo made sense for SEGA from the financial standpoint in this instance - the game sold quite poorly on Steam (~27k owners as of today), and apparently Denuvo ain't cheap, so...

 

I doubt the low sales are because of the Denuvo revolting. It made sense on Mania because it was a surprise and the subject was still fresh, so a lot of people did request a refund on steam and favored the console versions - even more because of the ridiculous 2-week delay.

But Forces did not have that and was only pirated a few days ago... I think it's simply because people don't buy bad games, and when they buy, they request refunds.

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Sonic Forces had me hyped, and even more hyped than I was for Mania upon it's initial reveal, but then Sonic Forces got me hyped around the villains reveal and the custom hero reveal, and then it was all uphill from me. I adore Forces, and it hit just the right balance of gameplay and story. 

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Just now, Korke said:

I doubt the low sales are because of the Denuvo revolting. It made sense on Mania because it was a surprise and the subject was still fresh, so a lot of people did request a refund on steam and favored the console versions - even more because of the ridiculous 2-week delay.

I never implied that the low sales are because of Denuvo tho. I just asked if it was a good investment in this instance.

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23 minutes ago, Bobnik said:

But delaying the inevitable is the whole point of Denuvo. From what I can gather, the mentality is this - the most amount of sales games get are at the launch week/month. So they take anti-tampering measures to give crackers a harder time. Sure, at one point Denuvo was failing pretty hard, with cracks coming out at most a week after release (some even got cracked on launch day), but the latest version just recently got cracked, so I'd say it's doing its job well. It was never about trying to completely eradicate piracy, cuz that'd be stupid way of thinking. Do I like that as a customer? Not really, but I can understand why would companies use the anti-tamper.

Many of the criticisms about it "killing SSDs" or hogging resources are also just based on speculation (at least I couldn't fight any definitive evidence that Denuvo does that(and before posting that one blog post about reasons why Denuvo is bad, that doesn't show any definitive evidence either, so please don't bother)). The only thing that is outright bad is the need for online authentication - if you've been offline for several days, you can't play the game unless you go back online.

Now I wonder if including Denuvo made sense for SEGA from the financial standpoint in this instance - the game sold quite poorly on Steam (~27k owners as of today), and apparently Denuvo ain't cheap, so...

 

Yeah but I think the people who wants to buy it buys it even if it's cracked on the day of release, and those who want to pirate it will just wait until it's pirated. I don't think it persuades anyone to go the other route.

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Low sales might have something to do with the game being launched a month later than all other platforms. And I think many people got the game for console and not PC (having both systems) because of Denuvo.

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6 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

Yeah but I think the people who wants to buy it buys it even if it's cracked on the day of release, and those who want to pirate it will just wait until it's pirated. I don't think it persuades anyone to go the other route.

I mean, there was probably some research that maybe goes for both gaming companies' and Denuvo's reasonings, but we won't know that for sure. And it's not like I'm buying that mentality myself, but again, I don't really know much myself.

13 minutes ago, molul said:

Low sales might have something to do with the game being launched a month later than all other platforms. And I think many people got the game for console and not PC (having both systems) because of Denuvo.

Um, Forces launched at the same time on PC as it did on consoles. Even Mania (if that's what you were talking about) had a 2-week delay, not a month. But I digress.

Also, sorry for derailing the topic, so I guess I'll turn it back on topic.

I guess the point where the game lost me was the announcement of Chemical Plant. Sure, it was after Green Hill was announced, but I wanted it to be the only zone that was re-used. Seeing that Chem.Plant was in the game bummed me out. I was already critical of Mania re-using zones (in terms of themes, not necessarily the layouts), so that was just another hit in the gutter of forced nostalgia for me.

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1 hour ago, Tarnish said:

Yeah but I think the people who wants to buy it buys it even if it's cracked on the day of release, and those who want to pirate it will just wait until it's pirated. I don't think it persuades anyone to go the other route.

I'm not sure about that. It could be true on the past when we had a maximum wait of 5 days... But nowadays the wait is a matter of months...

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it didn't loose me at classic sonic, but when I saw the first teaser and he was still there, it sowed seeds of doubt. Shadow and Chaos seemingly being badguys, more seeds of doubt. 

But when it lost me, when it truly lost me, wasn't the game itself. That disappointment would come much later, it was the interviews on the way to this game. That showed that sonic team might not actually get the franchise its in charge of. From " sonic adventure 3 wouldn't be an advancement of the series" coming from the people who... hasn't really advanced the series in quite a long time and hadn't made a good adventure type game since... the 2nd one to justify that it wasn't. Along with fucking up what they saw as the advancement of the series and  just boiling it down to " Boosting and self deprecation " . To them multiple types just talking about , why the games were the way the were and it just being horrible explanation that exposed that they might be flying by the seat of their pants into a furnace. 

 

That's when forces lost me, when iizuka and co , opened their mouths

But I imagine if I hadn't been paying attention to that, forces would have lost me at its subpart level design and finding out that was designed by.... some people I guess maybe. And their first teaser was completely false and lying. And actually playing the game and seeing classic sonic didn't even need to be in the video game, and then subsequently being disappointing at " Why wasn't... I dunno, that shadow part... like apart of the game... and like long and classic sonic that character that does nothing but dissapoint everyone in 3d not exist" . Along with " why is tails so useless" "why does the plot not matter" " What is happening " " why is infnite nothing " and " Hey do you know the only real boss you fight is infite in the entire game and it all sucks" 

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While Forces never completely lost me, I find it a fine brainless arcade style action game to kill a minute or two.
But the most damning moment I had with Sonic Forces is realizing that Sonic Forces did everything I wanted a Sonic game to do, on a superficial level at least.
And that just lead to...Well, Sonic Forces.

All planets were aligned, Sonic team said all the things I wanted to hear. "This game is deliberatly designed with the philosophy of being a fast paced 3d action game, Sonic Team saying they have passion again. You're encouraged to care about the story and be concerned with the characters. Finally taking a 4 year break to work seriously on one game instead of rushing it out in a year, they're actually using music again in a big way, they seem familair with the complaints about the "American writing" and assure us this was written by "the Japanese"...

It's like they went trough my entire wish checklist and clicked them all off... And screwed all of them up on some level except the music.
So, Sonic Forces is fine... But as the grand epitome, the epic clumination, the great gathering of every single one of my wishes and concerns.... This is the result? Ouch.
This is the best it'll get far as my particular taste in Sonic games goes with Modern Sonic Team, is it? There's a crushing thought.
So I better enjoy this mediocrity. It's just further downhill for me.

Wish I could look forward to Sonic Mania leading to better things, even if that's not my preferred direction.
But I can't help but think Mania was good because it was a below the radar game with minimal Sonic Team/ Sega input. I don't want to know what "improvements" a Sonic Mania 2 will enjoy if Sega and Sonic team get more involved.

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