What is so bad about Forces gameplay?

[ShadowSJG]

This I don't get.  . Classic is classic and modern is like colors/generations/unleashed. How did this game go wrong with that?

[MudHunter]

People are probably gonna explain it better, but here's a "tl;dr" version of *one* major thing that's wrong with the game:

 

Generations

 

Forces

 

 

which one has more input

[D.K.]

Well, for starters...

[Tracker_TD]

1 minute ago, ShadowSJG said:

This I don't get.  . Classic is classic and modern is like colors/generations/unleashed. How did this game go wrong with that?

Remember Generations?

Imagine that with the level design cut in half lengthwise, and with much of what exploration was available neutered. Also, make half of it 2D, and have the platforming be blockier than many Mario games. Then axe much of Sonic's versatile moveset from Generations, including the drift, and make his acceleration the equivalent of Lost World but with the run button to switch removed (leaving an awkward jolt in its place between acceleration 'gears').

Classic I can't attest to since I haven't played the full game so I can't say I have a feel for his controls, but his level design looks naff. 

Spoiler

They even throw in an autoscroller at the end!

Then there's the avatar... whew. I like the concept honestly, but the attached gameplay is executed really damn poorly. But you didn't ask about that, so I'll save my metaphorical breath.

[KHCast]

Classic controls like shit and the level design is mind numbingly simplified and lazy feeling compared to past entries like Gens and Unleashed. Moderns level design is also taking inspiration from colors. So mostly 2D and straight lines in 3D. And avatar is clunky 

[ShadowSJG]

So they combined lost world with boost right?

[Tracker_TD]

Just now, ShadowSJG said:

So they combined lost world with boost right?

I've seen people hypothesise that they reverse-engineered Lost World into a Boost game, which while that would be bloody bizarre, stands to reason. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

 

14 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

This I don't get.  . Classic is classic and modern is like colors/generations/unleashed. How did this game go wrong with that?

Brief post due to mobile.

"Like" There's your answer. It's like it, but it's not it and it wasn't that great to begin with.

One of the major changes is that the physics for Classic Sonic are completely naff even just compared to Generations. Factor in Mania and you see just how shambolic they are.

Add onto this the fact that you're barely in control of the game when you do play it. Boosters and automated sections force you to remaining a specific route, players actions and decisions are removed in favour of an artificial restricted motion which the developers put in for spectacle over gameplay.

[Diogenes]

Sonic Team doesn't understand what classic Sonic gameplay actually is; they just make a sloppy 2D platformer with a spindash and all their usual automation and bad level design and they think that's good enough.

They don't understand the problems with the boost gameplay, and seem to lean even harder into them. Shallow level design, absurd amounts of automation, platforming and high speed that never actually mesh together.

They don't even seem to want to make 3D games at this point. Forces seems to have less 3D than any modern era game besides maybe Colors, and what 3D it does have seems shallower than ever as well.

Rather than try to fix any of this, they shit out subpar clones of Generations' gameplay and tack on an avatar character whose gameplay shares most of Modern's flaws and adds combat that is so trivial that it's hard to understand why they even bothered.

[Blue Blood]

RE Classic Sonic specifically: Generations was never a good attempt at the Classic gameplay. It played like a Modern Sonic game, but with the Classic moveset (including an OP spindash to replace the boost). The level design was more intricate than the 2D portions of Modern Sonic though. The package was a solid effort, even if a bit clunky. Six years later, and hot on the tail of Mania which offers an authentic and smooth Classic experience, they just go and copy Generations. Absolutely no improvements are made - the only real change to how Sonic moves is neutering the spindash back to it's original form and implementing the drop dash. The level design has taken a step back to rely more on automation, blocky platforming and enemies that do very little.

Forces gameplay as a whole across all three playable characters cam be summed up as a stripped back version of Generations. Those who would have been happy with a Generations 2 are finding it disappointing to see that it's a lesser experience than a game release than a game that's now six years old (or on par with it at best), and nowhere near the standard set by Mania a few months ago.

[D.K.]

31 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

I've seen people hypothesise that they reverse-engineered Lost World into a Boost game, which while that would be bloody bizarre, stands to reason. 

This is almost certainly what they did.

Sonic runs slower when running on the X-axis than he does on the Y-axis (which at least kind of made sense in Lost World since you were usually running around on tubes but it has no place here and obliterates the flow), and his jumping physics - Or lack thereof - Are almost 1-to-1 if you look closely at the 3D box-to-box segments (calling it 3D platforming is a bit of a stretch). Sonic's in-game animations for standing still and running are ripped straight from Lost World, and Infinite's first boss fight goes without saying.

This all becomes even more bizarre with the fact that leftovers from the boost games in Lost World's data suggest Lost World was the polar opposite case: A boost game (more than likely Colours) reverse-engineered into a generic platformer.

Forces's gameplay engine is a boost game, turned into a platformer, turned into a boost game.

[Rusty Spy]

Outside the fact that modern Sonic is a downgrade from Generations and especially Unleashed with the removal of the wall jump and drift, and braindead simple level design, the fact that classic Sonic is a poor imitation of real classic gameplay, which itself is also a downgrade from Generations, and the fact that the Avatar is just discount Ratchet and Clank-

The fact that it's like unleashed/colors/Generations is precisely the problem. These are not good templates to base a Sonic game on. Unleashed was a decent experiment and did a lot with the concept on its first try, but it's inherently a shallow design that's far removed from the original concept of what a Sonic game should and can be. And each game after it has been a downgrade since then. Forces then, represents everything wrong with Sonic and Sonic Team themselves. It is absolutely lazy design top to bottom that barely qualifies a 3D game and it's the fourth game in a row that makes no attempt to fix the fundamental problems with it's core design or expand on the gameplay.

We're back at the tail end of the Adventure games, and Sonic Team is falling back on gimmicks to disguise the declining quality and their laziness.

[Mark1]

It’s not the fact it is glitchy. It’s more that it shows no love and care, by a team of people with no previous experience. On a formula which has had very little improved upon since its creation in Unleashed. Plus the over reliance on 2D too.

The classic gameplay is a downgrade compared to Generations - which wasn’t a perfect emulation of the older formula, the game was also released shortly after a true sequel to the original trilogy made by a group of fans.

The Avatar gameplay isn’t anything special either.

 

[ZinogreVolt]

Classic Sonic's gameplay in particular is poor because they tried to make Classic levels with the Generations template. His control wasn't that much of an issue in Generations because his levels in Generations were built around how he controlled. So while in Gens he didn't control like he did in the classics, it didn't matter so much because his levels were fun in their own right. Here, though, it's like they took the template from Generations and tried to stick it onto momentum and physics based gameplay, and the result is levels are both boringly designed and frustrating to play through, because he doesn't control like how he should in this environment.

[Meta77]

For me it's just the controls. Everything else is near great to amazing. Oh and some levels are super short and the story while not bad is rushed way to fast seriously

[Dr. Mechano]

The modern gameplay is overly linear, with boring, bland, corridor-like levels. Enemies just stand around and rarely do anything. Much of the levels are automated.

Classic gameplay is a pale imitation of the Genesis originals or Mania. Sonic's momentum is janky and wrong. And again, much of the levels are automated.

Avatar gameplay has overpowered weapons that make enemies a total nonissue. And again, much of the levels are automated.

The entire game feels lazy and phoned in, in general.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

2 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

RE Classic Sonic specifically: Generations was never a good attempt at the Classic gameplay. It played like a Modern Sonic game, but with the Classic moveset (including an OP spindash to replace the boost). The level design was more intricate than the 2D portions of Modern Sonic though. The package was a solid effort, even if a bit clunky. Six years later, and hot on the tail of Mania which offers an authentic and smooth Classic experience, they just go and copy Generations. Absolutely no improvements are made - the only real change to how Sonic moves is neutering the spindash back to it's original form and implementing the drop dash. The level design has taken a step back to rely more on automation, blocky platforming and enemies that do very little.

Forces gameplay as a whole across all three playable characters cam be summed up as a stripped back version of Generations. Those who would have been happy with a Generations 2 are finding it disappointing to see that it's a lesser experience than a game release than a game that's now six years old (or on par with it at best), and nowhere near the standard set by Mania a few months ago.

I agree, but I would add that Classic Sonic actually controls worse this time around, on top of the levels being far more simplistic and blocky. He simply doesn't gain momentum in many cases, and the automation introduces random hikes in his speed that feel completely unnatural. 

[Razule]

19 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

I agree, but I would add that Classic Sonic actually controls worse this time around, on top of the levels being far more simplistic and blocky. He simply doesn't gain momentum in many cases, and the automation introduces random hikes in his speed that feel completely unnatural. 

Aye automation.. this is an observation I made after Ghost Town: Seeing Classic Sonic slowly roll down hills is the most disheartening thing. Something about the controls.. it's like I can just feel the soul ripped out of him. The boost pads, the bounce pads.. the most insulting one was the one just before the level ended. There's a prompt to spin-dash right before the scripted sequence. Bpost pad -> loop-> level over. As if the spin dash means anything..

That last boost pad just felt like an insult to my intelligence.

 

 

[ShadowSJG]

So is boost bad then?

[Dr. Mechano]

12 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

So is boost bad then?

I think it's a really unengaging style of gameplay, personally.

I want a platformer, not a platformer/racing game hybrid. That said, even by the boost's own low standards, Forces is the worst of the lot, bungling the formula and making it far worse than any boost game that came before it.

[The Man On The Inside]

I remember we worried about Generations because the demo was of Green Hill Zone, but people called it Straight Line Zone. However, when we played the game and got to Sky Sanctuary, it was a marvel to behold the multi-pathed level design. This continued as the game went on. Seaside Hill Act 2 is often brought up, as it was at the start of this thread, as an excellent example of multi-path level design in a modern 3D Sonic game.

Forces doesn't reach anywhere near that. Yes there are a few examples of an extra path here and there, but that Seaside Hill act still beats all of Forces in terms of level design and interactivity. Every level ends about 90 seconds in after holding boost for well over 40 of those seconds.

Classic is worse than Generations because it's even further away from Mania than Generations. Sonic behaves in ways you wouldn't expect, and much of the sequences where you roll up an incline are scripted. He feels like he has a huge iron weight chained to his legs. This is one of the worst jumps in a Sonic game.

Avatar doesn't need to exist, but that's not the question being asked in this thread. What's wrong with the Avatars is that they lack air control (or at least the hedgehog does) meaning you can't correct yourself during a jump. All of the wispons are the same in that you press fire and everything dies with the possible exception of Drill. The actual wisp abilities are reduced in what they can do from Colours, and you can only use one of them at a time (I'll be honest, they probably don't need to be in the game at all).

Automation, scripted sequences, heavy jumping controls, but all worse than before. That's it really. Back to the drawing board (while Sonic Utopia and Green Hill Paradise Act 2 are playing on a nearby screen)...

[superman43]

1 hour ago, The Man On The Inside said:

Automation, scripted sequences, heavy jumping controls, but all worse than before. That's it really. Back to the drawing board (while Sonic Utopia and Green Hill Paradise Act 2 are playing on a nearby screen)...

Those 2 were apparent in some levels of Classics and Mania, but since Adventure there is overabundance, triggered mainly in Sonic Heroes and 06. The fact is that the player input is way less needed in Forces than in any game before it. Since Generations (or even Colors/Unleashed ?), if you try to do some move developers think you are not supposed to do, you just lose a life. Level design, well, everything was said. It´s visible that there are more 2D sections and the 3D sections are used as means of transport between 2D ones more than in Gens/Colors. Gameplay, also, very similar to Gens (no momentum) but looks from what others say to be like if Sonic had a ball chained to his feet.

 

 

[Gabz Girl]

Even more automation than Sonic Unleashed, Classic Sonic fails in direct comparison to Sonic Mania, no drifting, enemies do jack shit half the time, Avatar looks incredibly janky at times, QTE’s all over the Goddamn place...need I go on? 

Actually, I think QTE’s are the worst thing about Sonic Forces. I HATE them, especially when they’re just there to be cinematic and “cool.” They’re only button prompts that you can’t ever fail in, and if you do fail it only gives you 0 points anyway. No other consequences besides that.

Things like escaping the snake and flying the rocket into space, wouldn’t it be more fun to actually PLAY these moments rather than watching them and pressing a few buttons? 

[ShadowSJG]

Well, Boost worked in unleashed, generations, colors..so it has potential.

Also, what's good about green hill paradise? Doesn't it look to open and confusing?

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

2 hours ago, ShadowSJG said:

Well, Boost worked in unleashed, generations, colors..so it has potential.

Also, what's good about green hill paradise? Doesn't it look to open and confusing?

The Boost is actually a great mechanic that was used masterfully in Unleashed, horribly in Colors and competently in Generations. The issue with Boost is that it's a double edged sword when you aren't using it properly to either improve the mechanics or showcase a new designs within the game so you can traverse the stages. Unleashed had a strict purpose for Boosting and I believe it did it the best way to compliment it's philosophy(racing/platforming genre with lots of obstacles to overcome). 

You just can't half ass Boosting. It requires the most work and focus out of any Sonic gameplay.

What Forces does is show the really bad parts of boosting all around with no massive improvements to the mechanics after 9 years. In fact, it is completely regressive from Colors.