Should Shadow and Rouge be bad guys again

[Dash Speed]

Or at least nominal and borderline ambiguus anti heroes that save the world due to their own wants and needs. To be honest boom shadow should be just cannon Shadow due to the fact hes more entertaining being a bully yet smugly snarky force of death and vengeace that can make Sonic angry or more serious in a fight.

Same with Rouge, she's not Amy, she' not Blaze, she's the only modern day woman in a cast of little girls and prudes.  Generally cocky about being the only risque bad girl who steals jewels.

 

[RedFox99]

I think they're fine as heroes. The problem is that they're barely used (especially Rouge).

[Dr. Mechano]

In Shadow's case, it would undo his character development again. He reformed at the end of SA2, got amnesia, and had to decide to be a good guy again at the end of his own game. I think we're done with that song and dance. Though if you want an out-and-out villainous Shadow, his Boom counterpart has got you covered.

Rouge was never a villain on the same level; She was a mole working with Eggman under orders from the government. (Although, to be fair, she was partially responsible for destroying Prison Island and doubtlessly killing many of her own countrymen for the sake of the mission. Guess GUN is still just as corrupt as they were 50 years ago, huh?)

[Diogenes]

At this point I don't think you could make them genuine bad guys short of a reboot or a separate continuity. But I do think they'd work better if they were more antagonistic, instead of just being slightly shady heroes. We've got more than enough straight heroes as it is, and giving them more personal motivations than just "save the world" would make them more interesting characters.

[Marcello]

Not bad guys per se, but more antagonistic and mean would certainly be nice. I've said it plenty of times in the past, but I really like them in Free Riders.

 

[Almar]

Sonic games just need a bigger rogues gallery of villains who aren't edgy giant robots/monsters/gods/aliens.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, Almar said:

Sonic games just need a bigger rogues gallery of villains who aren't edgy giant robots/monsters/gods/aliens.

Fang the Sniper, Bean the Dynamite, and Bark the Polar Bear could easily fill this role if Sonic Team would just bring them back (for real, not just as illusions).

The Babylon Rogues are a lovable gang of thieves too, so they'd fit the "low-level goofy villains" bill nicely.

I'd also like to see Grand Battle Kukku and Witchcart, but I won't hold my breath.

[Kuzu]

They were never bad to begin with :V

Not that I'd want them to be straight-laced heroes, but whenever they were antagonistic, it was because they had their own separate goals.

[JezMM]

I'd love to see a story that pits them against Sonic due to them having a goal that gets in the way of his actions, or having a different belief about the correct way to take down a larger evil, but I'd HATE canon Shadow to be like Boom Shadow.  Boom Shadow is SO evil that it's played for laughs and ridiculousness.  He went on a murderous rampage because Sonic smacktalked him in very obviously doctored footage.  The guy is a complete moron when the script calls for it.

I also hated how callous they were in Free Riders.  My fave thing about Team Dark is just how deeply they have each other's backs, particularly shown in 2006, where they were the best part of that trainwreck of a story.

 

So yeah, basically I'd love to see them have a larger role in the story where they aren't evil, their interests just conflict with Sonic's, and they're not the type to budge if they truly believe they're right.  And I also want to see their rather "adopted-family" relationship get highlighted and tested further.

(Forces ending spoilers:)

Omega playfully smacking Rouge when she made fun of him for spending the entire war sleeping did my heart so good.

[Dr. Mechano]

17 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

They were never bad to begin with :V

Not that I'd want them to be straight-laced heroes, but whenever they were antagonistic, it was because they had their own separate goals.

Uh... Shadow literally tried to destroy the world in his first outing.

Shadow's "own separate goal" in SA2 was - prior to his end-of-game redemption - the complete obliteration of Earth. Which I'm pretty sure made him a bad guy by any reasonable measure at that point in time.

[Kuzu]

Just now, Super Mechanio said:

Uh...Shadow literally tried to destroy the world in his first outing.

Shadow's "own separate goal" in SA2 was - prior to his end-of-game redemption - the complete obliteration of Earth. Which I'm pretty sure made him a bad guy by any reasonable measure at that point in time.

What I mean was, when they were antagonistic, they had reasons for it beyond "lol evil" so just making them straight up antagonists again for no reason just for the sake of a conflict is stupid and just continues the trend of haphazardly changing characters to suit the needs of the plot. 

I mean, look at all of the reactions to Shadow supposedly siding with Eggman before Forces came out, because everyone realized how stupid it was without some contrived plot device to justify it.

 

I understand not wanting them to be cookie-cutter heroes, but at the same time, ignoring ( the very small amounts at this point) established and prior characterization has a been a problem for this series consistently.

[Almar]

I mean, Sonic was obviously modeled on Western Animation stars like Bugs Bunny. Both Bugs Bunny (Elmer Fudd, Yosemite Sam, Marvin the Martin, Rocky and Mugsy) and Micky Mouse (Phantom Blot, Peg-Leg Pete) have gotten rogue galleries over the years. When you consider this, it's odd how little Sonic Team has done to let Sonic have villains he can fight who aren't trying blow up the world or whatever.

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

What I mean was, when they were antagonistic, they had reasons for it beyond "lol evil" so just making them straight up antagonists again for no reason just for the sake of a conflict is stupid and just continues the trend of haphazardly changing characters to suit the needs of the plot. 

I mean, look at all of the reactions to Shadow supposedly siding with Eggman before Forces came out, because everyone realized how stupid it was without some contrived plot device to justify it.

 

I understand not wanting them to be cookie-cutter heroes, but at the same time, ignoring ( the very small amounts at this point) established and prior characterization has a been a problem for this series consistently.

Sure, I get that. But saying Shadow was "never bad to begin with" doesn't really make sense. He's absolutely a reformed villain. 

Can't have a redemption if you never did anything bad to be redeemed from, after all.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Super Mechanio said:

Sure, I get that. But saying Shadow was "never bad to begin with" doesn't really make sense. He's absolutely a reformed villain. 

Can't have a redemption if you never did anything bad to be redeemed from, after all.

Thank you for the informed commentary Mechano :V Yes I know Shadow  is a reformed villain.

[Razule]

3 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Which I'm pretty sure made him a bad guy by any reasonable measure at that point in time.

It might make him a bad guy, but it doesn't necessarily make him a bad guy.

It was completely justified, he was just trying to fulfill the wish of his long dead friend. Sometimes.. you gotta blow up a planet for a pal.

Besides, Light Gaia would restore the planet in a few million years anyway, so it's not like it'd be the end. And they could always have evacuated to the Animal Planet, they seem welcoming

[RedFox99]

14 minutes ago, JezMM said:

also hated how callous they were in Free Riders.  My fave thing about Team Dark is just how deeply they have each other's backs, particularly shown in 2006, where they were the best part of that trainwreck of a story.

They were pretty big jerks in that game, especially towards the robot they recruited. 

[Almar]

TBH, I say Team Dark being antagonists could work if you had Shadow more or less be the Daffy Duck to Sonic's Bugs Bunny. They're not fighting to the death, but they do come to blows over points of conflict (and Shadow being more of a target of ridicule).

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Thank you for the informed commentary Mechano :V Yes I know Shadow  is a reformed villain.

I mean, the reason I was emphasizing that was because you said the opposite of that earlier.

26 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

They were never bad to begin with :V

 

Which is fine! I just... thought that was still your position and was trying to explain why I thought it didn't make sense.

[Dash Speed]

Shadow shouldn't be a hero at all(not like sonic or silver), just a extreme opportunist that fights on behalf on his own sense of justice or beliefs.

Meaning hell kill/fight anyone if he feels it's necessary to satisfy himself in what plot hes in. Hes also back to being a condencending jerk, which I like in forces. Why? That's just how it is.

[Razule]

3 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

They were pretty big jerks in that game, especially towards the robot they recruited. 

Everyone's always on some kind of aggression pill in versus games. 

[Dr. Mechano]

4 minutes ago, Razule said:

It might make him a bad guy, but it doesn't necessarily make him a bad guy.

It was completely justified, he was just trying to fulfill the wish of his long dead friend. Sometimes.. you gotta blow up a planet for a pal.

I fundamentally disagree with that.

If my memories were altered to think that my best friend wanted me to go and kill a bunch of people, I'd still be able to shrug it off and say, "No, I'm not going to do that."

Shadow still could have gone, "Wow, Maria was pretty messed up, asking me to kill literally everybody - even though most people had nothing to do with her death - like that! No way am I gonna go through with an insane request like that!"

But he didn't. He still chose - of his own volition - to go through with it. And tampered memories or not, Shadow is still culpable and responsible for his own choices in that game. Fortunately, in the end he changed his mind... but alarmingly, it was only because he remembered what Maria actually wanted, not because he himself seemed to undergo any real internal change of mind about the rightness/wrongness of what he was doing.

[RedFox99]

Just now, Razule said:

Everyone's always on some kind of aggression pill in versus games. 

Yeah, that's what I don't like about the Rival games and Free Riders.

[SBR2]

As a big Rouge fan Hell No!

My favorite thing about Rouge is that she's a morally gray character in a franchise with strict Black and White definitions of Good and Evil. It's fun that she's a thief but does have some morals and her Catty personality makes for great banter when used. 

I could give a Shit about Shadow TBH.

[Sean]

The comics went out of their way to show how Team Dark's goals could frequently clash with the other heroes'. I really liked the genuine rivalry he and Knuckles had going on concerning the Master Emerald.

[Razule]

12 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

I fundamentally disagree with that.

If my memories were altered to think that my best friend wanted me to go and kill a bunch of people, I'd still be able to shrug it off and say, "No, I'm not going to do that."

Shadow still could have gone, "Wow, Maria was pretty messed up, asking me to kill literally everybody - even though most people had nothing to do with her death - like that! No way am I gonna go through with an insane request like that!"

But he didn't. He still chose - of his own volition - to go through with it. And tampered memories or not, Shadow is still culpable and responsible for his own choices in that game. Fortunately, in the end he changed his mind... but alarmingly, it was only because he remembered what Maria actually wanted, not because he himself seemed to undergo any real internal change of mind about the rightness/wrongness of what he was doing.

Ah, come on dude.. what's a little omnicide between pals? Be neighborly! /jk

Well, I'd guess that Shadow was never really taught about right and wrong. He's not really that old after all, he was, like.. a week old when Maria died. Aside from the mind warping he was probably very impressionable.