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Should Shadow and Rouge be bad guys again


Dash Speed

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29 minutes ago, Sean said:

The comics went out of their way to show how Team Dark's goals could frequently clash with the other heroes'. I really liked the genuine rivalry he and Knuckles had going on concerning the Master Emerald.

Shadow acted like a whiny baby through out that arc though and provoked knux for unreasonable reasons. Cannon shadow is at least patient an reasonable in his goals.

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2 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow acted like a whiny baby through out that arc though and provoked knux for unreasonable reasons. Cannon shadow is at least patient an reasonable in his goals.

I don't understand how wanting to get the very powerful object away from the villain counts as "being a whiny baby" and Knuckles who threw the first punch...

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46 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

As a big Rouge fan Hell No!

My favorite thing about Rouge is that she's a morally gray character in a franchise with strict Black and White definitions of Good and Evil. It's fun that she's a thief but does have some morals and her Catty personality makes for great banter when used. 

I could give a Shit about Shadow TBH.

Could "not". Could implies you care about Shadow 

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I'm probably the only one who's never seen Shadow or Rouge as "grey" characters. Mostly because this series is rather firmly black and white in terms of morality. Even at their most morally ambiguous, they're just kind of jerks who get into arguments with the more morally upstanding characters. But I never felt like they would turn on them at the drop of a hat.

Even the comics portray them as straight up heroes, even if they're not exactly nice and understanding about it as Sonic and Co. are.

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Like mentioned above, Rouge was never a villain. She was working with the government to learn more about the Shadow project in SA2. As for Shadow, after SA2, Heroes and SHTH, he became more of an ally than true hero. Yes he has his moment when he can be considered a HERO. Then he has his moments when he's more neutral. Boom considers him a villain. Honestly why? Why even ask about those 2 when we all know by the next Sonic game, they will be forgotten and not used like everyone else besides crybaby Tails.

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42 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm probably the only one who's never seen Shadow or Rouge as "grey" characters. Mostly because this series is rather firmly black and white in terms of morality. Even at their most morally ambiguous, they're just kind of jerks who get into arguments with the more morally upstanding characters. But I never felt like they would turn on them at the drop of a hat.

Even the comics portray them as straight up heroes, even if they're not exactly nice and understanding about it as Sonic and Co. are.

Why cant they be grey? They have team dark as their header. They're supposed to be dark mirrors of Sonic and Knuckles too.

The comics make Sonic a bigger asshole than Shadow ever was too the point he started taunting him to fight first and called him a crybaby. I wouldn't take that incarnation seriously as much as i take trigger happy omega.

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I think Rouge was a legit gray morality character in SA2. She's not outright evil, to be sure; joining Eggman was just undercover work, she didn't actually agree with him taking over the world. But that's only half her character; the other half is that she's a jewel thief. She enters the story by trying to steal the Master Emerald, she sets aside spying to gather pieces of it, and even her motivation for working for the government is that she's being paid in jewels. She's ultimately driven by self interest and self preservation, which makes her the type to take whichever side benefits her the most.

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11 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Why cant they be grey? They have team dark as their header. They're supposed to be dark mirrors of Sonic and Knuckles too.

The comics make Sonic a bigger asshole than Shadow ever was too the point he started taunting him to fight first and called him a crybaby. I wouldn't take that incarnation seriously as much as i take trigger happy omega.

Being a foil doesn't mean they have to actually be villains; Knuckles was Sonic's main foil before Shadow showed up, and nobody ever pegged him as a villain or said he should be bad. He was antagonist out of circumstance and afterward quickly became part of Sonic's group. It's square peg characters into roles they aren't suited for, which is a problem that's been plaguing this series a lot recently and I wish people would realize this.

And if you honestly think Sonic calling characters a few names makes him an asshole, I can't even begin to tell you how much you've misunderstood the character.

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I think Rouge was a legit gray morality character in SA2. She's not outright evil, to be sure; joining Eggman was just undercover work, she didn't actually agree with him taking over the world. But that's only half her character; the other half is that she's a jewel thief. She enters the story by trying to steal the Master Emerald, she sets aside spying to gather pieces of it, and even her motivation for working for the government is that she's being paid in jewels. She's ultimately driven by self interest and self preservation, which makes her the type to take whichever side benefits her the most.

While it's true Rouge has mostly selfish intentions, she has enough moral character to not cross certain lines. She did give Knuckles back the rest of the shards of the Master Emerald as thanks for saving her life in SA2. I can see her mostly interested in stealing jewels at the end of the day, but I don't think she'd team up with just anyone for the sake of jewels. I do feel like everyone should be more wary of her though.

A good way to describe it to me would be:

Rouge has selfish goals and intentions, but her methods are (mostly) benign. Which contrasts with Shadow's more questionable methods to achieve more sympathetic and noble goals.

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2 hours ago, SBR2 said:

As a big Rouge fan Hell No!

My favorite thing about Rouge is that she's a morally gray character in a franchise with strict Black and White definitions of Good and Evil. It's fun that she's a thief but does have some morals and her Catty personality makes for great banter when used. 

I could give a Shit about Shadow TBH.

Question, as a person who likes rouge but doesn't like shadow. How do you feel about team dark?

 

2 hours ago, Sean said:

The comics went out of their way to show how Team Dark's goals could frequently clash with the other heroes'. I really liked the genuine rivalry he and Knuckles had going on concerning the Master Emerald.

Yeah despite... I would argue a very forced start to all of it like knuckles not be weary at shadow warning about black arms because... knuckles had experienced that game and that universe and any apprehension to shadows warning should have been dissipated due to the fact that he experienced a complete and inability to stop the black arms. But weird interactions aside the fight and subsequent kinda friendship that happened after was pretty cool. I always felt like out of all the characters that don't regularly interact would be friends, knuckles and shadow would. 

I hope those two get to hang out in the IDW comics

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Actually, that's true. As a thief, who steals things that don't belong to her, Rouge has at least some villainous tendencies despite having an ostensibly squeaky-clean government job (though even that's pretty shady, since she willingly helped blow up one of her own bases).

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To answer the question, Shadow was never actually a bad guy. He was the bad guy, he's not A bad guy. His goals are most of the time, more noble that a lot of sonic characters, even sonic himself. Once he figured out his memories were being messed with dude, thew his life away to save everyone the guy will do whatever it takes to ensure the safety of the planet and others generally. Also it would go against his entire characterization, he went through a redemption ark, and in many ways still going through it. Its done, he's a good guy , leave him alone.

Rouge is a bit more morally gray, in the sense that while yes, in a grand scale she will side for good. She unlike shadow, does morally bad stuff because she just wants to , she steals, heck in the pre reboot she was ready to just take off with a sol emerald and shadow was the one who had to tell her no. Its weird to say this but shadow seems to be the general moral center of the team. What he's fighting for , kind of keeps the other two in check , with out him they are just kind of left to their own devices.  

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Part of me wishes Shadow & Rouge did their own thing separately more ; partially because the former almost always steals the show whenever they're together, so the latter always feels like a tagalong. I like their friendship, so I don't want it to go away, but it'd be nice to see them take action a bit more independently and team up when they need to.

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10 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Part of me wishes Shadow & Rouge did their own thing separately more ; partially because the former almost always steals the show whenever they're together, so the latter always feels like a tagalong. I like their friendship, so I don't want it to go away, but it'd be nice to see them take action a bit more independently and team up when they need to.

You and me both. I would like to see Rouge have her own character arc as well.

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20 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Part of me wishes Shadow & Rouge did their own thing separately more ; partially because the former almost always steals the show whenever they're together, so the latter always feels like a tagalong. I like their friendship, so I don't want it to go away, but it'd be nice to see them take action a bit more independently and team up when they need to.

I'd support this. I mean Shadow is my favorite character in the series. But the fact that she hasn't seen the light since.....well 06 is something that should be used more. She's not a bad character. Neither is Shadow. They need more games. More character development. And with Omega, you literally have a powerhouse of characters on the sideline. Kinda like how The protector of the Master Emerald is now a joking idiot.

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Nothing tells me Shadow is genuinely noble in being a hero or more heroic in the recent games. Hes still the same mysteriously dark anti hero he was in heroes, even in 06 he was a temp agent so Shadow still has no real alliance to anyone but himself.

Shadow finished his story in his game and starts off a new slate from 06, so why would he need more story and moments with Rouge and omega. It has been stated by the producer his character now exist to foil and rival Sonic, so its pretty obvious hes not going to be a buddy or brother to sonic and his friends.

Rouge is the same but has more a active interest in Knuckles and Angel Island, and overall shes like, Shadow is neutral to heroics because her purpose is to foil and rival Knuckles. Sure she helps saved the day but probably because she's ordered too by GUN, or she' after something personally. She's a thief after all.

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1 hour ago, Dash Speed said:

Nothing tells me Shadow is genuinely noble in being a hero or more heroic in the recent games. Hes still the same mysteriously dark anti hero he was in heroes, even in 06 he was a temp agent so Shadow still has no real alliance to anyone but himself.

>Willingly saved the world after telling Black Doom and Mephiles to fuck themselves.

>Knew the world was going to fuck him over and still chooses to fight for the planet.

>Actively opposes Eggman and sides with the Heroes in Forces.

Do you just actively ignore what the games do and just substitute it with your own headcanon?

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Ehhh no thanks. I hate the way Shadow acts in Sonic Boom, how he’s all evilz with no rhyme or reason (seriously, wtf is his problem?!) and I definitely don’t want to see that depiction in the games. It would be too out of the left field, especially after all that story building for his character in ShtH.

Just keep Shadow and Rouge as anti heroes of sorts, or heroes who do things differently from Sonic and co. I like their dynamic and I wish we could see it more often. And throw Omega in there too why don’t you! His appearance in Forces was little more than fanservice. 

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Team Dark will always be more interesting as anti-heroes to me. The reason Rouge is my favorite female character is because of how her alignment isn't set in stone on either side. It never felt weird seeing her interact with Eggman or the Heroes in something like Sonic X's third season where she was essentially ship hopping when it was beneficial to her. She starts off heading out on her own, ends up on Eggman's ship, leaves that when Scarship attacks, hangs with Shadow for a bit, then is on the Heroes' ship at the end. I love characters like that.

Omega's potential as a character has never fully been capitalized on. The fact that this series has a character whose sole motivation is rooted in revenge is interesting. It'd be a cool thing to play around with when it came to circumstances being a bit more twisted than usual.

Shadow is an agent for justice but would most likely be open to taking things in his own hands that go against the methods Sonic would be okay with. I can see some friction coming from that as well. 

It also helps that in my head, Eggman kind of wouldn't mind teaming up with Shadow and Rouge again should the opportunity (whatever that opportunity could possibly be at this point) arise again. 

Plus it just felt weird seeing Omega raise his fist to Friendship at the end of Forces. Like... what?

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7 hours ago, Gabz Girl said:

Ehhh no thanks. I hate the way Shadow acts in Sonic Boom, how he’s all evilz with no rhyme or reason (seriously, wtf is his problem?!) and I definitely don’t want to see that depiction in the games. It would be too out of the left field, especially after all that story building for his character in ShtH.

Just keep Shadow and Rouge as anti heroes of sorts, or heroes who do things differently from Sonic and co. I like their dynamic and I wish we could see it more often. And throw Omega in there too why don’t you! His appearance in Forces was little more than fanservice. 

To explain what his problem is, a long form version of infinite's problem in forces. Sonic boom was supposed to be a thing, that didn't pan out, they had left over elements to use in the show, so they used it. Shadow is one of them, writers didn't bother writing him a character because ... I dunno maybe they hated him. Maybe it just plays into their larger issue with writing that show, their inability to write plots and characters completely, maybe they didn't care enough. Maybe there were restrictions, I think its a combination of all those things. 

But at the end of the day sonic boom didn't pan arcs so all character arcs got axed up

9 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Part of me wishes Shadow & Rouge did their own thing separately more ; partially because the former almost always steals the show whenever they're together, so the latter always feels like a tagalong. I like their friendship, so I don't want it to go away, but it'd be nice to see them take action a bit more independently and team up when they need to.

I agree. I feel like its pretty obvious that they just wanna use shadow, the only reason team dark exists is because sonic team has an obsession ( and still kinda does ) with teams structure, to be fair its good for marketing. But its somewhat of an obsession, so they just made a team to push shadow as a character. Even in the comics before they got canceled it was shadow saving omega or rouge or picking up after them. I think even now its pretty clear the one they want to use is shadow. They should just use , shadow. Shadow wouldn't have to drag along two other people and rouge and omega could actually do shit. 

To be fair the only who would actually get to do shit in games if the other two stopped tagging along is shadow. But at least in comics and in other media separation would be good. Even then with the restrictions on boom I have a suspicion that maybe western sega isn't fond of rouge 

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Omega would be the easiest to antagonize. Like he needs an excuse to blow up something (of course later Rouge or Shadow would have to show up and make him apologize or something).

Rouge could work in RPG (or game really bloated with cutscenes) like Sonic Battle: as a side villain, someone who steals stuff, but never in a way that would endanger anyone's life, let alone helps big villain's scheme. (I do wonder if how being thief AND government agent works. Maybe she's paid in 'get out of jail' cards.)

Shadow should NEVER be a villain. Maybe if you had a good reason, but at this point turning him evil was overused to 'Eggman get's betrayed' level. Even Free Riders went too far IMHO. At worst he can be someone of a jerk and have 'rival battle'

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20 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

They were pretty big jerks in that game, especially towards the robot they recruited. 

Which is exactly what made them fun. They're callous jackasses and I rarely enjoyed them as much.

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20 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Question, as a person who likes rouge but doesn't like shadow. How do you feel about team dark?

Ok that was mostly in jest. I do like Shadow but I find that I honestly am less concerned with how he's portrayed. Like honestly I really enjoy Boom Shadow mostly for being so comically serious.

Shadow is a character that honestly I don't really care who's side he's on because frankly he'll be about the same regardless.

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3 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Ok that was mostly in jest. I do like Shadow but I find that I honestly am less concerned with how he's portrayed. Like honestly I really enjoy Boom Shadow mostly for being so comically serious.

Shadow is a character that honestly I don't really care who's side he's on because frankly he'll be about the same regardless.

Eh I don't agree because, to use your own example boom shadow doesn't act like any other shadow because he has no motivations or any constant character, his motivation and character is " plot device" . And regular shadow has like, character motivations, and wants to help people, and cares about people, and does things to actively ensure the safety of those he cares and changed as character. 

But that's not important, the reasoned I asked you the initial question is because I wanna make a thread, and subsequently a youtube video about this, but its about whether team dark needs to still exist. Because while rouge isn't as popular as other characters, she still has fans, and i'm sure a sizable amount of them might not care for shadow's existance. And shadow doesn't need rouge to be popular, so...why not separate them. I'm interesting in seeing some perspective from rouge fans who might not be fond of shadow

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On 11/15/2017 at 4:59 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

>Willingly saved the world after telling Black Doom and Mephiles to fuck themselves.

>Knew the world was going to fuck him over and still chooses to fight for the planet.

>Actively opposes Eggman and sides with the Heroes in Forces.

Do you just actively ignore what the games do and just substitute it with your own headcanon?

Destroyed Black Doom because he was the only one who could, nothing implied he did it to prove his heroism, and if he did it was his choice not because he got motivated by external forces to do good like in SA2.

He said he's just fight, not for the sake of the planet.

Shadow has no emphasis on why he's there to help the resistence with Rouge, again ambiguous.

In generations he went back to being Sonic's antagonistic arch rival and then next cheering him on, so yeah he's netural still. Shadow's thing is always to be someone who can be just as dangerous as any villain to Sonic and his friends because he's plays by no rule book but his own.

 

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5 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Destroyed Black Doom because he was the only one who could, nothing implied he did it to prove his heroism, and if he did it was his choice not because he got motivated by external forces to do good like in SA2.

He did it because he felt it was the right thing to do and wanted to protect the world. 

That's heroism

5 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

He said he's just fight, not for the sake of the planet.

He said if people turn against him, he'll fight. That is natural yes, but he seems to still wants to protect the planet regardless if they despise him. Which is literally the story of most modern super heroes at some point

5 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow has no emphasis on why he's there to help the resistence with Rouge, again ambiguous.

Because he wants to protect the world, eggman taking over the world would be a direct conflict to this

5 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

In generations he went back to being Sonic's antagonistic arch rival and then next cheering him on, so yeah he's netural still.

The shadow you fought is from sonic adventure 2. The shadow in the end, is the one you freed after fighting that shadow. Also most of that game might not even be canon besides classic sonic showing up, but that's entirely different disucssion

5 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow's thing is always to be someone who can be just as dangerous as any villain to Sonic and his friends because he's plays by no rule book but his own.

 

No, he's a person who wants to do the right thing and be a hero, he'll just do bad things to do that. He is at worst an anti hero, and even then, not really. He's just a hero who's kind of a jerk sometimes

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