Sonic Forces may have destroyed the series storyline

[Sega of Japan]

4 minutes ago, Razule said:

He travels between worlds. The gate thing is written in the Sonic bible.

Too bad that they dont let us know when he travels between worlds ever. I dont remember him going through some portal to go to a different world at the end of unleashed

[Diogenes]

Does that really matter? I mean, I'm not saying the whole thing isn't dumb as shit, but it's easy to tell which world a game takes place in once you see some NPCs, and if there aren't any, then it doesn't make any difference which world it is anyway.

[Shadowlax]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Does that really matter? I mean, I'm not saying the whole thing isn't dumb as shit, but it's easy to tell which world a game takes place in once you see some NPCs, and if there aren't any, then it doesn't make any difference which world it is anyway.

Eh, for things here and there. It makes gun a weird entity if they still exist, because they would have no incentive to care about the other world and make shadow somehow make less sense

[GuyWithThePie]

This is why I like the post-reboot Archie comics and think they're a great example of what Sonic's world should be. Everything is merged into one world where humans and anthropomorphic animals coexist, the planet is based on the one seen in Sonic Unleashed, and almost every location from a previous game is accounted for, even the more obscure and unused ones. This brings everything together very nicely, and it prevents things from becoming needlessly overcomplicated.

Seeing as how Ian Flynn is going to be the main writer for the IDW comics, I hope we will get to see a similar interpretation of Sonic's world there. It would be a huge shame to see all that worldbuilding get thrown away for a shitty "explanation" that was literally ripped straight from Sonic X, a show that hasn't been relevant in over a decade.

[EdsonBubsy]

36 minutes ago, Razule said:

No..? Silver is from Sonic Rivals, that's his canon first appearance.

Link to Canon? Because rivals was a spin-off last I checked officially.

But it doesn't change my point, if rivals was Canon rouge would be chasing after shadow.

 

38 minutes ago, Razule said:

He travels between worlds. The gate thing is written in the Sonic bible.

Again that same thing had Eggman from the animal planet, how does that make sense?

37 minutes ago, Ratcicle King said:

N-no? Blaze is from Rush, and 06 retconned itself from the timeline, you're making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

 

No you seem to just believe Segas I'll thought out explanations.

06 was not retconned out of Canon the timeline of iblis coming to life was reversed, but Silver and Blaze would still be from the future Soleana regardless whether the future was in ruins or not.

There is also the fact Rivals and Rush can't have both canonically occurred since they contradict each other.

[EdsonBubsy]

40 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Eh, for things here and there. It makes gun a weird entity if they still exist, because they would have no incentive to care about the other world and make shadow somehow make less sense

Not only that but since Emerl only appears and mostly mentioned in animal world mainline games, but was programmed by Gerald it makes the separation make less sense unless Gun decided to send him through the portal.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

17 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

There is also the fact Rivals and Rush can't have both canonically occurred since they contradict each other.

How so?

 

17 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

06 was not retconned out of Canon the timeline of iblis coming to life was reversed, but Silver and Blaze would still be from the future Soleana regardless whether the future was in ruins or not.

The ending of 06 eliminated the ruination of Soleanna, and there's been no mention whatsoever of Silver being from that city anymore, nor of him and Blaze sharing a partnership from that timeline. Hell, they don't even recognize each other in Colors DS.

[Razule]

14 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

52 minutes ago, Razule said:

 

Link to Canon? Because rivals was a spin-off last I checked officially.

But it doesn't change my point, if rivals was Canon rouge would be chasing after shadow.

So is Rush. Blaze and Marine aren't canon now?

No she wouldn't..? The way the characters are written changes every game anyway.

16 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Again that same thing had Eggman from the animal planet, how does that make sense?

Because Eggman isn't from the animal planet.

16 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

52 minutes ago, Ratcicle King said:

 

No you seem to just believe Segas I'll thought out explanations.

06 was not retconned out of Canon the timeline of iblis coming to life was reversed, but Silver and Blaze would still be from the future Soleana regardless whether the future was in ruins or not.

There is also the fact Rivals and Rush can't have both canonically occurred since they contradict

06 is canon, but it erases itself, thus the future changed. Blaze being in 06 doesn't make sense anyway.

Eggman NEGA is from the future, he lied about being from another dimension.

[Shadowlax]

3 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Not only that but since Emerl only appears and mostly mentioned in animal world mainline games, but was programmed by Gerald it makes the separation make less sense unless Gun decided to send him through the portal.

Emerl Might just not be a thing. It seemed like they were gonna make him a thing and the franchise went a different direction. I can except that just not being a thing anymore

[EdsonBubsy]

10 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Ace Joranvexeon said:

How so?

 

The ending of 06 eliminated the ruination of Soleanna, and there's been no mention whatsoever of Silver being from that city anymore, nor of him and Blaze sharing a partnership from that timeline. Hell, they don't even recognize each other in Colors DS.

Colors DS isn't Canon.

Also why would reversing inlis erase the future? It's still there just no iblis

As for Rush and Rivals the conflict with each other due to Eggman Nega, who is from another dimension in rish and from the future in rivals.

23 minutes ago, Razule said:

So is Rush. Blaze and Marine aren't canon now?

No she wouldn't..? The way the characters are written changes every game anyway.

Because Eggman isn't from the animal planet.

06 is canon, but it erases itself, thus the future changed. Blaze being in 06 doesn't make sense anyway.

Eggman NEGA is from the future, he lied about being from another dimension.

Him lying would also mean Silver and Blaze also lied which doesn't make sense, just like gun being in one of the games but not the other.

It has been stated Eggmans from animal planet. There's no indication of the "gate" excuse pointing to it existing before Sonic 1, and he could have taken over the other world otherwise.

06 doesn't erase silver and Blaze from being from the future. It only removes iblis.

 

23 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Emerl Might just not be a thing. It seemed like they were gonna make him a thing and the franchise went a different direction. I can except that just not being a thing anymore

He's mentioned in Canon games though and is connected to the plot before Gerald's execution before adventure 2.

[Shadowlax]

12 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

 

 

He's mentioned in Canon games though and is connected to the plot before Gerald's execution before adventure 2.

What might those games be

[JaidynReiman]

I'm trying to figure out why this thread exists.

 

"may have destroyed the series storyline"

Um... what series storyline?

 

Its ALWAYS had a loose continuity. Period. That's why the idea of "alternate worlds" is pretty fucking stupid anyway. Alternate worlds and reboots can't exist in a world without a consistent storyline anyway.

There's references to past titles, but othewise, most games are independent from one another, and there are almost no story arcs or continuity at all. This is the extent of the series continuity:

1.) Sonic 2 > Sonic 3 >  Sonic & Knuckles

This is very loose as is. The only real connection here is Tails' introduction to the series, and the Death Egg crash landing into Angel Island following the events of Sonic 2. Sonic 3 then leads into Sonic & Knuckles (obviously given they were once one game).

 

2.) Sonic Adventure > Sonic Adventure 2 > Sonic Heroes > Shadow the Hedgehog

This is the longest story arc in the series, and even then its VERY loose overall. The only major connections are Sonic Adventure 2 > Shadow the Hedgehog. Sonic Adventure is only loosely alluded to in SA2, and even then it doesn't make any sense; Tails is given the Chaos Emerald for saving Station Square (ok), but the city got obliterated after the fact ANYWAY. The dialogue in SA2 does not mention this.

Sonic Heroes' only SA2 connection is Shadow. Otherwise, the connection might as well not even exist.

Shadow the Hedgehog is directly connected to the events of SA2 and is practically a pseudo-sequel. Technically its still post-Heroes, but Heroes fits very oddly in place here because the world does not look like the world of SA/SA2 at all (namely, Grand Metropolis looks like a futuristic world). Sonic Heroes is needed for Shadow the Hedgehog to exist (the whole amnesia thing started in Heroes), but otherwise SA2 is the biggest influence for Shadow the Hedgehog's storyline.

 

3.) Sonic Advance 2 > Sonic Battle > Sonic Advance 3

Again, loose continuity. Advance 2 is only included due to the introduction of Cream in Sonic Advance 2. The only real direct connection is Sonic Battle and Sonic Advance 3 because of Emerl, though. Following Emerl's destruction in Battle, Eggman rebuilds him as Gemerl (or G-Mel?), who is fought throughout Advance 3. At the end he's saved and ends up staying with Cream (Cream's last major appearance in a game).

 

4.) Sonic Rush > Sonic Rush Adventure

Direct sequels. There is major correlation here, unlike between Sonic 1/2 and Sonic Adventure 1/2.

 

5.) Sonic Rivals > Sonic Rivals 2

Direct sequels. But they sort of contradict Sonic Rush. I say "sort of", because any character who should know about Eggman Nega through Sonic Rush never finds out Eggman is actually Eggman Nega (in both games). In addition, as far as I'm aware the Sonic Rush games are not mentioned.

 

6.) Sonic Riders > Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity > Sonic Free Riders

The second is a direct sequel to the first. Free Riders has a barebones story and barely references the first two as far as I'm aware. No games reference these titles at all, and these titles do not reference other games. GUN is mentioned in Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity (interesting, given that the Riders games appear to be set in the futuristic setting and not in the normal "modern" world we see GUN in), but GUN doesn't actually appear.

[MetalSkulkBane]

I agree with JaidynReiman, this topic is dumb. Yes, Sonic Forces have a lot of inconsistencies.  It's not the first game and won't be the last to do it. I could list examples, but I have better things to do.

And Death Egg, Little Planet,  Chaos Zero ... some of those accusations are beyond petty.

And for fudge sake, couldn't you pick the less melodramatic title? You're making mountains out of molehills.

[Shadowlax]

3 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I agree with JaidynReiman, this topic is dumb. Yes, Sonic Forces have a lot of inconsistencies.  It's not the first game and won't be the last to do it. I could list examples, but I have better things to do.

And Death Egg, Little Planet,  Chaos Zero ... some of those accusations are beyond petty.

And for fudge sake, couldn't you pick the less melodramatic title? You're making mountains out of molehills.

I would argue its actually important. Usually weird ass inconsistencies in sonic stories are whatever. I'll be the first to tell you my favorite games sa2 has story issues , however this game has weird ass inconsistencies that actually speak to a lot of the issues of the franchise that is actually worth indepth discussion 

[MetalSkulkBane]

Ok, what's so bad about this game (maybe except Classic Sonic from another dimension).

Lack of Humans? They off camera, like Mobians, were in Unleashed (Two Worlds thing doesn't really matter)

Why is Silver here? Read the comics

Wisps? After 4 games of them, it's clear they here to stay. Apparently, some moved from their planet to maybe-Mobius.

 

[Shadowlax]

11 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Ok, what's so bad about this game (maybe except Classic Sonic from another dimension).

Lack of Humans? They off camera, like Mobians, were in Unleashed (Two Worlds thing doesn't really matter)

Why is Silver here? Read the comics

Wisps? After 4 games of them, it's clear they here to stay. Apparently, some moved from their planet to maybe-Mobius.

 

While there is plenty of inconstant shit that's bad, and no the comics explanation isn't good enough because that isn't how time travel works. But its not about being inherently bad even though there are bad parts, its more about what it means for the future of the franchise. And the idea that i'm getting from this, and some other media in the past few years is that I feel like Sonic team wants to reboot modern sonic. There's a lot of key things that are just strait up changed during this entire narrative, or missing that I feel less omissions and issues with writing and more of sonic team trying to create a new world of sonic.

 

[JaidynReiman]

13 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like Sonic team wants to reboot modern sonic.

 

Ok.  What's there to reboot? And they basically already rebooted Modern Sonic following '06 anyway.

[Razule]

1 hour ago, EdsonBubsy said:

1 hour ago, Razule said:

 

Him lying would also mean Silver and Blaze also lied which doesn't make sense, just like gun being in one of the games but not the other.

It has been stated Eggmans from animal planet. There's no indication of the "gate" excuse pointing to it existing before Sonic 1, and he could have taken over the other world otherwise.

06 doesn't erase silver and Blaze from being from the future. It only removes iblis

Dude, we're trying to give you explanations but you keep being difficult by saying things that don't make sense

Blaze is officially from another dimension. Eggman NEGA is officially from the future. Iizuka confirmed it. Blaze being in 06 never made sense, but she is officially from another dimension. 06 is gone, so she has always been from another dimension. 

No, it wasn't stated Eggman was from the animal planet. This animal/human planet stuff is relatively new,  but logically Eggman is from the human planet.

[Almar]

Eggman from a human planet with Sonic from an anthro planet falls apart when you account for the Adventure games. What with the Echidnas being around and how Gerald obviously knew about Angel Island even before making his hedgehog Ultimate Lifelorm.

It's just overcompensating for the grown backlash against 3D Sonic up until Unleashed.

 

[Shadowlax]

30 minutes ago, JaidynReiman said:

Ok.  What's there to reboot? And they basically already rebooted Modern Sonic following '06 anyway.

Short version:: every game after generations feels like a test bed both thematically and gameplay wise in direction. And forces takes some particularly interesting stances in its setting that leads me to believe this

[Razule]

8 minutes ago, Almar said:

Eggman from a human planet with Sonic from a an anthro planet falls apart when you account for the Adventure games. What with the Echidnas being around and how Gerald obviously knew about Angel Island even befor making his hedgehog Ultimate Lifelorm.

Because when Adventure was made they thought humans and animals lived on one world. Like in Generations they thought Classic Sonic was from the past. Now they don't, and we can either denounce it as stupid or reason how they can.

[Almar]

We saw what happened last time somebody tried to fit "Human World VS Anthro World" in with the backstories for the Adventure games (Sonic X). It still fell apart since they just had Eggman quickly notice he must have come from Human Earth before dropping it. And the show wasn't supposed to have that begin with going from the pilot.

[EdsonBubsy]

12 minutes ago, Razule said:

Dude, we're trying to give you explanations but you keep being difficult by saying things that don't make sense

Blaze is officially from another dimension. Eggman NEGA is officially from the future. Iizuka confirmed it. Blaze being in 06 never made sense, but she is officially from another dimension. 06 is gone, so she has always been from another dimension. 

No, it wasn't stated Eggman was from the animal planet. This animal/human planet stuff is relatively new,  but logically Eggman is from the human planet.

 

Because it doesn't make sense, also many are given there own thoughts but not actual confirmed canon, issue is since Sonic team is trying to act as if there's a story line then it stands to reason none a lot of the above doesn't make sense.

If Blaze is officially from another dimension that means Rush happened, which it can't because Nega is in rivals where Nega is from the future, and if nega "lied" than Blaze and Silver also "lied" which doesn't make any sense. 

I also don't understand what's so hard to grasp about 06 even with the most basic time travel rules, Sonic 06 reseting Iblis wouldn't remove Silver and Blaze from existing in that future. it doesn't make sense, why would everyone BUT them still exist in the reset timeline????

You say logically yet it's been said by Sega guys that Eggman is from the same universe/world. The reasons why this whole thing is broken is because of them trying to salvage it without really thinking of what goes together with what.

 

1 hour ago, JaidynReiman said:

I'm trying to figure out why this thread exists.

 

"may have destroyed the series storyline"

Um... what series storyline?

 

Its ALWAYS had a loose continuity. Period. That's why the idea of "alternate worlds" is pretty fucking stupid anyway. Alternate worlds and reboots can't exist in a world without a consistent storyline anyway.

There's references to past titles, but othewise, most games are independent from one another, and there are almost no story arcs or continuity at all. This is the extent of the series continuity:

1.) Sonic 2 > Sonic 3 >  Sonic & Knuckles

This is very loose as is. The only real connection here is Tails' introduction to the series, and the Death Egg crash landing into Angel Island following the events of Sonic 2. Sonic 3 then leads into Sonic & Knuckles (obviously given they were once one game).

 

2.) Sonic Adventure > Sonic Adventure 2 > Sonic Heroes > Shadow the Hedgehog

This is the longest story arc in the series, and even then its VERY loose overall. The only major connections are Sonic Adventure 2 > Shadow the Hedgehog. Sonic Adventure is only loosely alluded to in SA2, and even then it doesn't make any sense; Tails is given the Chaos Emerald for saving Station Square (ok), but the city got obliterated after the fact ANYWAY. The dialogue in SA2 does not mention this.

Sonic Heroes' only SA2 connection is Shadow. Otherwise, the connection might as well not even exist.

Shadow the Hedgehog is directly connected to the events of SA2 and is practically a pseudo-sequel. Technically its still post-Heroes, but Heroes fits very oddly in place here because the world does not look like the world of SA/SA2 at all (namely, Grand Metropolis looks like a futuristic world). Sonic Heroes is needed for Shadow the Hedgehog to exist (the whole amnesia thing started in Heroes), but otherwise SA2 is the biggest influence for Shadow the Hedgehog's storyline.

 

3.) Sonic Advance 2 > Sonic Battle > Sonic Advance 3

Again, loose continuity. Advance 2 is only included due to the introduction of Cream in Sonic Advance 2. The only real direct connection is Sonic Battle and Sonic Advance 3 because of Emerl, though. Following Emerl's destruction in Battle, Eggman rebuilds him as Gemerl (or G-Mel?), who is fought throughout Advance 3. At the end he's saved and ends up staying with Cream (Cream's last major appearance in a game).

 

4.) Sonic Rush > Sonic Rush Adventure

Direct sequels. There is major correlation here, unlike between Sonic 1/2 and Sonic Adventure 1/2.

 

5.) Sonic Rivals > Sonic Rivals 2

Direct sequels. But they sort of contradict Sonic Rush. I say "sort of", because any character who should know about Eggman Nega through Sonic Rush never finds out Eggman is actually Eggman Nega (in both games). In addition, as far as I'm aware the Sonic Rush games are not mentioned.

 

6.) Sonic Riders > Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity > Sonic Free Riders

The second is a direct sequel to the first. Free Riders has a barebones story and barely references the first two as far as I'm aware. No games reference these titles at all, and these titles do not reference other games. GUN is mentioned in Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity (interesting, given that the Riders games appear to be set in the futuristic setting and not in the normal "modern" world we see GUN in), but GUN doesn't actually appear.

I don't understand why you find it strange tales got a reward. You are combining the end game of SA1 with the Tails/nuke thing in SA1 when they are clearly two separate things. 

Sonic Heroes connection is also the clones, and the fact Eggman saved Shadow, but yes mostly Shadow, but considering that the Clones and the saving of Shadow is like 1/4 of the game I wouldn't call that "lose" though to the extent you are implying anyway.

The only times were there's no real connections between the mainline games is Unleashed, Colors and Lost World which are mostly all if not all stand alne.

The rest of what you mention are non-canonical games and the debated Rivals/Rush which conflict with each other.

10 minutes ago, Almar said:

Eggman from a human planet with Sonic from a an anthro planet falls apart when you account for the Adventure games. What with the Echidnas being around and how Gerald obviously knew about Angel Island even befor making his hedgehog Ultimate Lifelorm.

It's just overcompensating for the grown backlash against 3D Sonic up until Unleashed.

 

Exactly, the Enchinas history is in Adventure 1 and Angel Island is also there "though reduced", of course you can debate whether they just did that due to technical limitations and the actual Island is much bigger (assuming all those flashbacks took place on angle island.)

A lt of people forget that if 06 were to succeed it would have continued down that plot line regardless of the time reverse and likely would have followed similar tone, theme and gameplay to 06. The point of 06 was to "soft reboot" the franchise for new players hence the title only being called "Sonic the hedgehog" and so on.

 

1 minute ago, Almar said:

We saw what happened last time somebody tried to fit "Human World VS Anthro World" in with the backstories for the Adventure games (Sonic X). It still fell apart since they just had Eggman quickly notice he must have come from Human Earth before dropping it. And the show wasn't supposed to have that begin with going from the pilot.

Not to mention Chris and some of the researched related to him or associates of his family members who were scientists found about about things like Angle Island and the Chaos Emeralds before Sonic and the gang got there.

Or the tree aliens.....

9 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Short version:: every game after generations feels like a test bed both thematically and gameplay wise in direction. And forces takes some particularly interesting stances in its setting that leads me to believe this

I agree with this.

Especially since the start of the game isn't really tied to previous games, and we have things happening and guys appearing almost as if Forces takes place in a bubble. Given the new personalities for some characters and the fact we actually have a new map of whatever earth this is establishing where greenhill is and so on, I feel like this is the most stand alone game for awhile outside of course the plot holes reappearing characters, and classic sonic being retconned.

[Almar]

I'd call there being another planet with humans in Sonic's dimensions the bigger issue. It's like they were having second thoughts about Humans being from another dimension but it was too late to walk away from that so they stuck with it.

[Razule]

9 minutes ago, Almar said:

I'd call there being another planet with humans in Sonic's dimensions the bigger issue. It's like they were having second thoughts about Humans being from another dimension but it was too late to walk away from that so they stuck with it.

It's not too late though.. not like they're above changing things out of the blue.