Sonic Forces may have destroyed the series storyline

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Actually in Silvers story it's implied iblis took over quite a bit afterward.

Where does it imply this?

[JezMM]

On 17/11/2017 at 4:15 PM, EdsonBubsy said:

Colors DS isn't Canon.

Sometimes it's worth considering that just because a game isn't canon, it doesn't mean character details aren't.  For example, we know Shadow and Rouge work for GUN from 2006, but that wasn't retconned when 2006 was undone.  While it was REVEALED in 2006, that event happened outside of the game.  So while Colours DS may not be canon, we can still assume that if Silver and Blaze met in another game, they wouldn't recognise each other (unless a future game tells us otherwise, which will again be another painful Rush vs 2006 related plothole for the series).  Likewise, Runners probably isn't canon, but the reveal that some of the Wisps liked Sonic's world and stayed there doesn't clash with anything in Lost World or Forces so we might as well accept that as canon.

On 17/11/2017 at 4:35 PM, JaidynReiman said:

GUN is mentioned in Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity (interesting, given that the Riders games appear to be set in the futuristic setting and not in the normal "modern" world we see GUN in), but GUN doesn't actually appear.

One of the good things Forces did do for the canon was finally confirm that the Sonic games contain a variety of architectural styles from realistic to fantastical.  We see "City" and "Metropolis" co-existing in not just the same world but the same landmass.  ...Yeah there's the whole two-worlds bullshit that I still refuse to acknowledge personally but to be fair even in the human world we have amazing locations like Space Colony ARK in outer-space so it's safe to assume technology can be that advanced on home-turf too.  No real world space station looks as crazy as the ARK.

16 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Yes we do. It's when Elise died when Eggman's ship went down. That's when Iblis was released.

I always thought the lack of Iblis release when the ship crashed was meant to imply that the future Sonic was already over there, leaping out the ship with Elise and sharing a very awkward wink on a sunny clifftop.  Of course the whole time travel bullshit makes no sense anyway since if Mephiles was released by Shadow in the present that we see... clearly the present we see where Mephilis is able to successfully combine with Iblis upon his release is what happened... so where does the Mephiles of the future come from in order to convince Silver to go back and give it a do-over so Mephiles can successfully combine?  He already did because a Mephiles that didn't sent him back so...

Ugh 2006 mang.

[Tarnish]

At this point, Sonic Team screwed up the franchinse's storyline so much (willingly, which is the best part) that IMO it's not even worth trying to salvage or make sense out of the trainwreck they created for themselves. Why should we bother if they don't give a rats ass about it?

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Tarnish said:

At this point, Sonic Team screwed up the franchinse's storyline so much (willingly, which is the best part) that IMO it's not even worth trying to salvage or make sense out of the trainwreck they created for themselves. Why should we bother if they don't give a rats ass about it?

That’s why we need a second Boom. Start over. Clear out the discord. All of it. This time, do it right. Retell, don’t just go off on tangents and fart in the audience’s faces. A “Hyrule Historia” May as well make things worse.

[EdsonBubsy]

6 hours ago, Razule said:

Emerl was found by Eggman, taken to a lab, and then thrown away.

Emerld was given to gun by Gerald robotnik in the events preceding SA2.

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Where does it imply this?

In his story?

3 hours ago, Tarnish said:

At this point, Sonic Team screwed up the franchinse's storyline so much (willingly, which is the best part) that IMO it's not even worth trying to salvage or make sense out of the trainwreck they created for themselves. Why should we bother if they don't give a rats ass about it?

Well the thing is a lot of Sonic fans did actually like the "Sonic with a plot" from Sonic Adventure to Sonic Unleashed. Many left because of the things they did with colors and continued to do post colors until Forces. So that harms the franchise.

2 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

That’s why we need a second Boom. Start over. Clear out the discord. All of it. This time, do it right. Retell, don’t just go off on tangents and fart in the audience’s faces. A “Hyrule Historia” May as well make things worse.

Well boom wasn't even a full reboot it was a spin-off reboot.

I could see another attempt at 06 where it assumes the characters know each other up to maybe SA2 but changes the plot from there.

Just call it Sonic the Hedgehog again. 

Of course there would likely have to be a gap in releases for that idea to work.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, EdsonBubsy said:

In his story?

...could you be more specific, perhaps? A quote, a link to a video, a description of the scene?

[Razule]

3 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Emerld was given to gun by Gerald robotnik in the events preceding

Yeah.. and if you actually knew the story of Battle, you'd know that Eggman eventually found Emerl. He took him to one of his labs, gave him aChaos Emerald which he had absorbed, and was then abandoned on a beach. This beach being where Sonic and friends found him.

7 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Emerld was given to gun by Gerald robotnik in the events preceding SA2.

In his story?

Well the thing is a lot of Sonic fans did actually like the "Sonic with a plot" from Sonic Adventure to Sonic Unleashed. Many left because of the things they did with colors and continued to do post colors until Forces. So that harms the franchise.

Well boom wasn't even a full reboot it was a spin-off reboot.

I could see another attempt at 06 where it assumes the characters know each other up to maybe SA2 but changes the plot from there.

Just call it Sonic the Hedgehog again. 

Of course there would likely have to be a gap in releases for that idea to work.

But.. Shadow would still be dead.

[EdsonBubsy]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...could you be more specific, perhaps? A quote, a link to a video, a description of the scene?

It's in one of the few times he's actually in the future. Not at a PC atm.

9 minutes ago, Razule said:

Yeah.. and if you actually knew the story of Battle, you'd know that Eggman eventually found Emerl. He took him to one of his labs, gave him aChaos Emerald which he had absorbed, and was then abandoned on a beach. This beach being where Sonic and friends found him.

But.. Shadow would still be dead.

No Eggman saved him as soon as he fell down to the earth at the end of SA2 remember?

Because of that easily missable plot point even if we removed everything after SA2 it would still happen.

Instead what would change is Rouge wouldn't switch from Knuckles to Shadow in terms of romance.

 

Oh and I guess cream wouldn't exist but I am not sure anyone on this forum let alone most Sonic fans care about her.

[Razule]

3 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

It's in one of the few times he's actually in the future. Not at a PC atm.

No Eggman saved him as soon as he fell down to the earth at the end of SA2 remember?

Because of that easily missable plot point even if we removed everything after SA2 it would still happen.

Instead what would change is Rouge wouldn't switch from Knuckles to Shadow in terms of romance.

 

Oh and I guess cream wouldn't exist but I am not sure anyone on this forum let alone most Sonic fans care about her.

Uh.. I thought the first part was about Emerl?

I mean.. I guess she doesn't add much.

[EdsonBubsy]

33 minutes ago, Razule said:

Uh.. I thought the first part was about Emerl?

I mean.. I guess she doesn't add much.

"Actually knew" I ignored because the point of the Emerl discussion was his connection to Gerald thus screwing up the two world excuse Sega is using, Sonic Battle has nothing to do with that and you brought it up out of nowhere. At best Sonic battle would debunk it more because iirc there aren't any humans in battle if I recall.

As for Cream her most unique appearance is...nothing because in Advance she's basically just tails and in Heroes she's basically.  Just tails.

[StaticMania]

She's Tails but better, because of Cheese.

[Ultimate Victory 64]

Like this series has any form of consistency

How does moon regain its other half?

Why do we always get the Bad Future Stardust Speedway when canonically Sonic saved Little Planet?

Why are the wisp still here?

Why is SIlver still here even though the events of 06 were erased?

Why is Crisis City in Generations even though again the events of 06 were erased?

To be honest this whole dimension thing is another one to throw into the pile.

[Razule]

4 minutes ago, Ultimate Victory 64 said:

Why is SIlver still here even though the events of 06 were erased?

Because Sonic Rivals is canon.

[Ultimate Victory 64]

3 hours ago, Razule said:

Because Sonic Rivals is canon.

Yeah but did it explain Silver existence. Im not familiar with that game story

[Razule]

16 minutes ago, Ultimate Victory 64 said:

Yeah but did it explain Silver existence. Im not familiar with that game story

He just.. does. He was born in a new future.

[Salamander]

I don't see anything complicated about Silver's continued existence.  It's standard fiction logic for the same characters to be around in a given historical period regardless of what changes are made to the timeline.  Certainly there's nothing in '06 to imply that Silver's entire existence would have been destroyed by altering history, and it seems to be rather missing the point to make any appeal to genealogical probability when the series doesn't care about anyone's parents.  So Silver still exists, and by the magic of historical parallels, the guy just keeps on getting caught up in stories where he has to travel back in time, but he's probably having all sorts of unseen adventures in the future as well.  It would be good if they actually foregrounded an explanation of this - but you know, the Forces prequel comic in which he appeared (and Aaron's related Tumblr tags) kind of does.  The guy has access to time-travel somehow, doesn't really matter how as you can invent any number of ways, and he makes a point of returning to the past any time there's a crisis too big for the people of that time to handle alone.  It's pretty common in stories for former time-travellers to be sensitive of changes to the timeline, including alterations that would be caused only by their own presence in the past, so that's his signal to show up.  Standard timecop cartoon logic, nothing difficult about it.  You don't need to know anything about Rivals to infer any of this.

[EdsonBubsy]

8 hours ago, Razule said:

Because Sonic Rivals is canon.

No it's not, not until they explain Nega in rush and rivals being the same guy and gun ships appearing in. Rush. 

8 hours ago, Razule said:

He just.. does. He was born in a new future.

From Sonic 06 post reset, which is the human world.

4 hours ago, FFWF said:

I don't see anything complicated about Silver's continued existence.  It's standard fiction logic for the same characters to be around in a given historical period regardless of what changes are made to the timeline.  Certainly there's nothing in '06 to imply that Silver's entire existence would have been destroyed by altering history, 

This is what I've been saying.

 

 

[NegaMix]

Just to try and clear up this whole debacle about Rivals, Silver, Eggman Nega etc.

Takashi Iizuka officially stated in a Q&A back in 2012, that both Silver AND Eggman Nega are from the future, while Blaze is from another dimension. Unfortunately, I can't find a good video of the Q&A session right now, so the best I can do is link to a live blog of the event:

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2012/07/sonic-boom-live-blog/ (Second Paragraph)

If that's not enough, then it should be noted that Nega's official character sheet on Sonic Channel describes him as Eggman's descendant, with his Rivals backstory:

http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/character/eggmannega.html

This indicates that the Rivals games are considered to be at least somewhat canon, as of now. Though considering that Iizuka was the Project Director, Concept Designer AND Scenario Writer for both Rivals games, I personally don't find it that surprising. In short, Eggman Nega's origin was blatantly retconned.

[Almar]

Apparently, there was concept art for an Eggman descendant character that didn't look anything like Nega. Which suggests that Eggman Nega was shoved into the role during development.

I'm not really against that since Eggman Nega was always just edgier Eggman anyway. Maybe we'll get Captain Whisker again.

[Tornado]

lol "Series Timeline" as if that is an actual thing. Every few years Sega does something that invalidates a pretty core order of events (remember when Sonic 4 didn't actually understand how Sonic 3's story worked?), and the only time anyone pays any attention to it is when the game happens to actually be good.

[Salamander]

1 hour ago, Almar said:

Apparently, there was concept art for an Eggman descendant character that didn't look anything like Nega. Which suggests that Eggman Nega was shoved into the role during development.

I'm not really against that since Eggman Nega was always just edgier Eggman anyway. Maybe we'll get Captain Whisker again,

That's actually very interesting information.  Rivals independently conceiving of an Eggman descendant and Iizuka realising that Nega could be slotted into this role would explain the apparent retcon in the character's backstory in a stroke.  Does anyone else know anything about this reported concept art?

[Almar]

The concept art. The right middle figure has been speculated on 4chan to be Eggman's descendant before Nega was picked to be in the game.

[EdsonBubsy]

2 hours ago, SaberX said:

 

I'm frankly curious about what part of Cream, aside from flying, is "basically just Tails".

2/3 of the games she's playable in is "just tails"

8 hours ago, Captain Metallix said:

Just to try and clear up this whole debacle about Rivals, Silver, Eggman Nega etc.

Takashi Iizuka officially stated in a Q&A back in 2012, that both Silver AND Eggman Nega are from the future, while Blaze is from another dimension. Unfortunately, I can't find a good video of the Q&A session right now, so the best I can do is link to a live blog of the event:

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2012/07/sonic-boom-live-blog/ (Second Paragraph)

If that's not enough, then it should be noted that Nega's official character sheet on Sonic Channel describes him as Eggman's descendant, with his Rivals backstory:

http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/character/eggmannega.html

This indicates that the Rivals games are considered to be at least somewhat canon, as of now. Though considering that Iizuka was the Project Director, Concept Designer AND Scenario Writer for both Rivals games, I personally don't find it that surprising. In short, Eggman Nega's origin was blatantly retconned.

Doesn't really explain the Nega in rush. Or the gun ships in rush. Or the fact Silvers coming from the future to the past of the animal world is a plot hole.

7 hours ago, Tornado said:

lol "Series Timeline" as if that is an actual thing. Every few years Sega does something that invalidates a pretty core order of events (remember when Sonic 4 didn't actually understand how Sonic 3's story worked?), and the only time anyone pays any attention to it is when the game happens to actually be good.

Seemed easy to follow up till Shadow at least. 

 

[Tornado]

4 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Seemed easy to follow up till Shadow at least.

Yeah... no. The only reason it was "easy to follow" was because during the Sonic Team USA era they basically just retconned big chunks of the previous game every time they made a new one. The Adventure->Heroes->ShtH mess was enough of a disaster as it was before Sonic Battle and Advance 3 were tried to be tied into Shadow's ever-changing backstory.

[EdsonBubsy]

Just now, Tornado said:

Yeah... no. The only reason it was "easy to follow" was because during the Sonic Team USA era they basically just retconned big chunks of the previous game every time they made a new one. The Adventure->Heroes->ShtH mess was enough of a disaster as it was before Sonic Battle and Advance 3 were tried to be tied into Shadow's ever-changing backstory.

Not sure where you're getting Sonic A3 being officially tied to anything.

SA1-2-heroes-Shadow don't really have much cracks in the plot the biggest issues are things not explained. In game anyway. But generally you can summarize a timeline. Remember Shadow came out in 05 before most if the retconing.