Sonic Forces may have destroyed the series storyline

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

They introduced chaos emeralds into this world and they have to deal with idea that unless they get rid of them entirely , they have to kinda deal with people expecting them.

Step one in dealing with this is not using them all the time to break the expectation that they will be used every time.

It shouldn't be that hard to accept that sometimes the emeralds are just not going to be available. They're a bunch of magic rocks that fall in and out of some warped parallel dimension based on who knows what. If they don't show up in a game, just assume they're in the special stages, and that nobody can go get them for reasons.

[Almar]

11 hours ago, Nestor said:

No, GUN is entirely canon, until explicitly stated otherwise

Sure it is.

13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Step one in dealing with this is not using them all the time to break the expectation that they will be used every time.

It shouldn't be that hard to accept that sometimes the emeralds are just not going to be available. They're a bunch of magic rocks that fall in and out of some warped parallel dimension based on who knows what. If they don't show up in a game, just assume they're in the special stages, and that nobody can go get them for reasons.

The problem is that accepting the comic means you accept that the Master Emerald is still in the canon. And yet it's never considered to use it to counter the Phantom Ruby. Same goes for the Chaos Emeralds.

[Shadowlax]

42 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Step one in dealing with this is not using them all the time to break the expectation that they will be used every time.

I sorta agree, but I think there should be an explanation for it. 
Also , the M.E kinda makes this weird. 

42 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It shouldn't be that hard to accept that sometimes the emeralds are just not going to be available. They're a bunch of magic rocks that fall in and out of some warped parallel dimension based on who knows what. If they don't show up in a game, just assume they're in the special stages, and that nobody can go get them for reasons.

But there are characters that can just warp reality to go get it. " hey knuckles we need to get the chaos emeralds. Imma use chaos control with the M.E and go grab em real quick" 

I think an easy solution to this is to just copy dragon Ball Z even more. And just render them useless for a time after use. That way , you can't go " why can't someone use chaos control with the M.E. So some games you use em because they can actually be used, and some games you don't because people used them and you can't. 

[Diogenes]

21 minutes ago, Almar said:

The problem is that accepting the comic means you accept that the Master Emerald is still in the canon. And yet it's never considered to use it to counter the Phantom Ruby.

When's the Master Emerald been used to counter anything aside from the Chaos Emeralds, which it has an explicit connection with?

This series has enough problems with telling decent stories without having to dedicate time each game to explain why every previously established character and macguffin isn't involved.

[Nestor]

On 6/30/2018 at 1:32 AM, Shadowlax said:

I think an easy solution to this is to just copy dragon Ball Z even more. And just render them useless for a time after use. That way , you can't go " why can't someone use chaos control with the M.E. So some games you use em because they can actually be used, and some games you don't because people used them and you can't. 

To be fair, they do have this already - most times the Chaos Emeralds are used, they warp away and scatter all over the world, sometimes even into their own pocket dimensions.

In any game they're not in, it can easily be assumed that they just haven't been found yet.

[BaronGrackle]

On 11/17/2017 at 7:11 AM, EdsonBubsy said:

11. Why is knuckles the leader? He's a proven incompetent that rushes into things and is gullible, some of such traits show in game. Shadow could have been the leader, he's led teams before, is collected and calm, and has fought two different armies at the same time. Espio could have been another choice. Its clearl they purposefully didn't want it to be tails so they made him "lose it" but why would leadership default to knuckles?

Sorry I'm late to the party, but...

1. Knuckles has governed the creatures of Angel Island ever since his first appearance, so he's had experience "leading" a large group people.

2. Being incompetent and rushing into things may be bad in-universe, but it's great for the storyline. Launching a disastrous frontal assault is a common trope in films and narratives, early on. It gives players a reason to replay Metropolis, anyway.

3. Out of all the characters, only Knuckles would be (over)confident enough to believe he is the natural choice for leader. He thinks himself the guardian of just about everything, and he's very loud about it. Shadow is often antisocial and gravitates toward working alone--when part of a team, he's rarely leading it (Robotnik led in SA2, while Rouge led in Sonic Heroes). Espio is similarly softspoken. Vector or Blaze may have been good alternative choices, but again, Knuckles' loud confidence and sense of entitlement is likely what landed him the position over the others.

[Almar]

2 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

Sorry I'm late to the party, but...

1. Knuckles has governed the creatures of Angel Island ever since his first appearance, so he's had experience "leading" a large group people.

They're non-antro animals from all evidence. And they're his friends, not subjects. It's not like he's royalty.

2 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

2. Being incompetent and rushing into things may be bad in-universe, but it's great for the storyline. Launching a disastrous frontal assault is a common trope in films and narratives, early on. It gives players a reason to replay Metropolis, anyway.

There are plenty of ways to get a situtation where you revisit Metropolis. And Knuckles following the Zapp Brannigan School of Warfare hardly helps his character when he's once again treated as Team Sonic's Dr. Zoidberg. Nor does it help the overall cast considering it contributes to the "Only Sonic can be proactive and effective with just about everybody else who's not a villaim being cheerleaders" mindset ST has.

2 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

 3. Out of all the characters, only Knuckles would be (over)confident enough to believe he is the natural choice for leader. for leader. He thinks himself the guardian of just about everything, and he's very loud about it. Shadow is often antisocial and gravitates toward working alone--when part of a team, he's rarely leading it (Robotnik led in SA2, while Rouge led in Sonic Heroes). Espio is similarly softspoken. Vector or Blaze may have been good alternative choices, but again, Knuckles' loud confidence and sense of entitlement is likely what landed him the position over the others.

Or it was just fanservice since they wanted an iconic Classic character to lead the Resistance and don't see Tails as being capable of heroism on his own anymore.

Being serious, your paragraph doesn't really address how Knuckles got the rest of the Resistance to follow him. He's not known for people skills, he shouldn't be famous in the world beyond the position of Sonic's other sidekick, he's still treated with an air of disrespect by his subordinates.

[does it really matter]

To be fair, I feel Sonic games will always have gapping plot-holes. SA2 was probably the worst offender in my opinion. Why is the ultimate lifeform a hedgehog? How was Gerald's execution tape made part of the Ark collision program (who put it there to begin with)? Shadow knew of a government spy known as "Rouge the Bat", but didn't believe it was her until he overheard her trying to steal the Chaos Emeralds? How did Amy get to Prison Island and obtain a keycard? Even what happened to Maria is not clear at all aside that she died. There was also a wealth of information about the game's backstory not found in the game, but in other materials, which again does not make for good story-telling. 

I know this isn't a thread to discuss SA2, but I am merely just using that game as an example for how most Sonic games have very poorly written stories. Does Sonic Forces have a great story? No, but what Sonic game truly has an objectively well-written story? None in my opinion. They all have gaping plot-holes when you break them down, some more than others. This is one of the many reasons why so many are drawn to the 2D games, which may be light on story, but at least have some fun animations to tell us what's going on and leave the crux of the enjoyment to the gameplay.

[Marco9966]

2 minutes ago, does it really matter said:

No, but what Sonic game truly has an objectively well-written story? None in my opinion.

I disagree.

Sonic Adventure 1 is till now the best Sonic story.

The closest contender is Sonic Chronicles.

[does it really matter]

11 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

I disagree.

Sonic Adventure 1 is till now the best Sonic story.

The closest contender is Sonic Chronicles.

You know, I do have to agree with you there.

I very much enjoyed the story of SA1. There are still plenty of areas that could be taken apart though. I just feel that Sonic stories aren't necessarily meant to be put under a microscope because I don't think it's ever meant to be taken too seriously. People will still find enjoyment in them.

[BaronGrackle]

4 hours ago, Almar said:

Being serious, your paragraph doesn't really address how Knuckles got the rest of the Resistance to follow him.

My take on it? Many of Sonic's friends are natural followers. (Tails, Amy, Charmy, Espio, Cream)

Some of them prefer to work alone, or show no motivation to lead. (Shadow, Silver)

In my mind that leaves rival leader candidates as Rouge, Vector, or Blaze. And take away Blaze if she just arrived from another dimension.

I don't think "leader of the rebels" was a coveted position.

[Almar]

6 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

My take on it? Many of Sonic's friends are natural followers. (Tails, Amy, Charmy, Espio, Cream)

Some of them prefer to work alone, or show no motivation to lead. (Shadow, Silver)

In my mind that leaves rival leader candidates as Rouge, Vector, or Blaze. And take away Blaze if she just arrived from another dimension.

I don't think "leader of the rebels" was a coveted position.

Tails had a character arc in the Adventures on trying to go beyond Sonic's shadow. And Amy hardly acts like a toady towards Knuckles considering how she calls him out for thinking Aquatic Road had water slides.

And it's not just Sonic's posse. There's assumably thousands of nameless anthros in the Resistance. The game just leaves open the question of how Knuckles managed to get all of them to follow him when there's nothing saying he's famous or respected. At Vector leads a detective agency that apparently gets steady work.

[BaronGrackle]

1 hour ago, Almar said:

Tails had a character arc in the Adventures on trying to go beyond Sonic's shadow.

See, I get a different vibe from Tails's ending there. Tails showed that he could save the day himself if Sonic temporarily wasn't around, but it wasn't like Robin becoming Nightwing. As soon as Sonic was back, Tails went back to following his lead. And he was still following Sonic as the end credits roll.

With Sonic Forces... they could have written it a lot better, but I absolutely approve of the CONCEPT of Tails shutting down when he thinks Sonic's been horribly killed, especially if he feels it was his fault. 

[DabigRG]

14 hours ago, Almar said:

 And Amy hardly acts like a toady towards Knuckles considering how she calls him out for thinking Aquatic Road had water slides.

 

Eh, less like calling him and more like asking him if he wants to ride them based on his enthusiasm about the Rookie doing so.

[Asin Korber]

On 7/12/2018 at 7:41 AM, does it really matter said:

Why is the ultimate lifeform a hedgehog?

To quickly answer your question for a bit, it's a common theory that in Sonic Battle that Gerald studied the ancient Echidna mural in S&3K's Hidden Palace Zone and decided to base the ultimate lifeform on the "Super Sonic" on it while doing his research on Emerl, if I'm remembering right.

Now, time to get back onto topic...

[Almar]

20 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

See, I get a different vibe from Tails's ending there. Tails showed that he could save the day himself if Sonic temporarily wasn't around, but it wasn't like Robin becoming Nightwing. As soon as Sonic was back, Tails went back to following his lead. And he was still following Sonic as the end credits roll.

With Sonic Forces... they could have written it a lot better, but I absolutely approve of the CONCEPT of Tails shutting down when he thinks Sonic's been horribly killed, especially if he feels it was his fault. 

He saw Sonic get blown up in Adventure Two. He proceded to unleash fury on Eggman.

 

[does it really matter]

13 hours ago, Asin Korber said:

To quickly answer your question for a bit, it's a common theory that in Sonic Battle that Gerald studied the ancient Echidna mural in S&3K's Hidden Palace Zone and decided to base the ultimate lifeform on the "Super Sonic" on it while doing his research on Emerl, if I'm remembering right.

Now, time to get back onto topic...

Oh, I actually know about the entire backstory. The story itself is actually pretty decent, right down to the details on how Shadow even got his name. The problem sometimes isn't always with the story itself, as it is with the story-telling. So many details, like Maria's condition, were left out completely of the actual SA2 game and were instead put within other source material and games. Had they provided such details in the game, I feel the story would've been much better for it. Even Sonic Forces makes a bit more sense when reading the comics (which reveals how Wisps were even in the game); it's just unfortunate it takes more talented writers to fill in the gaps for players instead of the actual game writers. 

For me, Sonic games are about how you fill in the gaps yourself, with the help of other material and your own imagination. More well written stories do that for you, but Sonic games were never really about that, so I can't fault them too much. 

For instance. I was originally under the impression that the "Phantom Ruby" in Sonic Mania was not the original, but one of the many prototypes that modern Eggman created, which he then sent to Classic Sonic's dimension as a result of an experiment. I even thought it was his attempt to conquer other dimensions by indirectly aiding his counterpart. It made more sense to me seeing as Classic Sonic showed up six months after Eggman conquered the world, while the Phantom Ruby was found by Modern Eggman well before he even began his conquest.

Same thing with the "Super Emeralds", I prefer to believe that they are the current Chaos Emeralds, powered by the energies of the Master Emerald after Sonic and Tails collected them in Sonic 1 and 2, instead of them just disappearing like Iizuka claims. It may not be canon, but I really couldn't care less about canon at this point. It helps me enjoy the story more because the writers do not care as much, which is a damn shame. 

[Nestor]

6 hours ago, Almar said:

He saw Sonic get blown up in Adventure Two. He proceded to unleash fury on Eggman.

 

He was also in a heavily armed mech with nothing standing between him and Eggman at the time though; in Forces, he's on his own with Infinite and seemingly four other villains and has no effective way to immediately counterattack Eggman.

I think the thing that breaks Tails is not just the fact that Sonic is gone, but the fact that Eggman is able to take over the world as well and essentially wins. It's not explicitly stated in the game when exactly between Sonic's defeat and his escape that Tails has a breakdown, so it could well be that he does actually fight back against Eggman initially like in Sonic Adventure 2, but loses it when Eggman actually takes over, perhaps feeling that he's let Sonic down by not being able to stop him (unlike on the ARK where he's able to take Eggman down immediately).

[Almar]

On 7/14/2018 at 3:00 PM, Nestor said:

He was also in a heavily armed mech with nothing standing between him and Eggman at the time though; in Forces, he's on his own with Infinite and seemingly four other villains and has no effective way to immediately counterattack Eggman.

There's an army out fighting Eggman's Empire. He'd hardly have to go it alone.

On 7/14/2018 at 3:00 PM, Nestor said:

I think the thing that breaks Tails is not just the fact that Sonic is gone, but the fact that Eggman is able to take over the world as well and essentially wins. It's not explicitly stated in the game when exactly between Sonic's defeat and his escape that Tails has a breakdown, so it could well be that he does actually fight back against Eggman initially like in Sonic Adventure 2, but loses it when Eggman actually takes over, perhaps feeling that he's let Sonic down by not being able to stop him (unlike on the ARK where he's able to take Eggman down immediately). 

You might as well apply all that to Amy. Except she's still not the one cowering at weak enemies she should be able to handle.

[Nestor]

5 hours ago, Almar said:

There's an army out fighting Eggman's Empire. He'd hardly have to go it alone.

Eh? There was only him and a bunch of random townsfolk - the resistance hadn't formed yet, Eggman hadn't taken over the world at this point.

While I agree Tails cowering earlier against regular badniks was bad writing (though this sadly seems to be a recurring theme since Unleashed...), him going postal on Eggman in the immediate aftermath of Sonic's defeat was not an option with Infinite and his illusory posse standing in the way, while in SA2 he had the means and a clear shot at taking out Eggman.

5 hours ago, Almar said:

You might as well apply all that to Amy. Except she's still not the one cowering at weak enemies she should be able to handle.

Different personalities, different circumstances, different reactions. In SA2 Amy had a breakdown despite potentially being in a position to personally PikoPiko Hammer Eggman into next Wednesday. In Forces she isn't present at Sonic's defeat, and subsequently takes up a non-combat role in the Rebellion.

Tails meanwhile - aside from only being a ten-year old - witnesses Sonic's defeat firsthand and likely feels guilt for not being able to save Sonic nor defeat Eggman. The fact that Eggman subsequently conquers the world, adding a final failure of Sonic in Tails's eyes, is an adequate explanation for his potential later breakdown due to the additional personal dimension to Tails's experiences compared to Amy's.

[Nicky Nicardo]

I'm constantly surprised by how negatively people reacted to Tails in Forces. It just... wasn't THAT odd or out-of-character to me, and it made enough sense given what happened in the plot itself.

[BaronGrackle]

On 7/14/2018 at 10:34 AM, Almar said:

He saw Sonic get blown up in Adventure Two. He proceded to unleash fury on Eggman.

 

Fair point.

[Almar]

5 hours ago, Nestor said:

While I agree Tails cowering earlier against regular badniks was bad writing (though this sadly seems to be a recurring theme since Unleashed...), him going postal on Eggman in the immediate aftermath of Sonic's defeat was not an option with Infinite and his illusory posse standing in the way, while in SA2 he had the means and a clear shot at taking out Eggman.

I suspect you're overthinking Forces' weak writing when it came to Tails and the other heroes who aren't Sonic or OC, doubly since the line about Tails losing it is a Woolseyism.

7 hours ago, Nestor said:

Different personalities, different circumstances, different reactions.

So inconsistent writing?

8 hours ago, Nestor said:

Tails meanwhile - aside from only being a ten-year old - witnesses Sonic's defeat firsthand and likely feels guilt for not being able to save Sonic nor defeat Eggman. The fact that Eggman subsequently conquers the world, adding a final failure of Sonic in Tails's eyes, is an adequate explanation for his potential later breakdown due to the additional personal dimension to Tails's experiences compared to Amy's.

Amy is 12 while Tails is 8.  She's just barely hit puberty. She's hardly some mature warrior compared to Tails.

2 hours ago, FriesWithoutKetchup said:

I'm constantly surprised by how negatively people reacted to Tails in Forces. It just... wasn't THAT odd or out-of-character to me, and it made enough sense given what happened in the plot itself.

Tell us more on how Tails should be sidelined so that the Mary Sue can be Modern Sonic's sole confidant.

 

[Nestor]

5 hours ago, Almar said:

I suspect you're overthinking Forces' weak writing when it came to Tails and the other heroes who aren't Sonic or OC, doubly since the line about Tails losing it is a Woolseyism.

I dare say so - but whether by accident or design, the scenario presented by the dubious writing choices of the game does in fact leave space for there to be some sort of coherent reasoning for Tails's breakdown without breaking character.

5 hours ago, Almar said:

So inconsistent writing?

No, it would be inconsistent if it were the same personalities in the same circumstances with different reactions.

5 hours ago, Almar said:

Amy is 12 while Tails is 8.  She's just barely hit puberty. She's hardly some mature warrior compared to Tails.

Leaving aside for the minute that those four years can significantly alter a child's personality, the key point was that Tails was plausibly affected in a way that Amy wasn't simply due to him being directly involved in the situation at the moment of Sonic's defeat and the additional emotional baggage that would naturally come with that.

[DabigRG]

20 hours ago, FriesWithoutKetchup said:

 It just... wasn't THAT odd or out-of-character to me, and it made enough sense given what happened in the plot itself.

Yeah, I thought so too. It really just came down to the execution.