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EdsonBubsy

Boost Sonic is the only way to make 3D Sonic.

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On 11/20/2017 at 9:30 AM, knuckles20 said:

At least with Adveture and Heroes it actually gives a 3D experience and doesn’t rely on half the game being in 2D.

And despite Unleashed day stages getting praise, SEGA still try to pass off future boost games as “3D” when they keep adding more 2D in these games.

If they can’t commit to the dimension why call it 3D in the first place?

Half of unleashed isn't 2D. That's why I keep only bringing up that boost game.

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19 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Half of unleashed isn't 2D. That's why I keep only bringing up that boost game.

If you only count the day gameplay (since we're talking about the boost here, and you've dismissed any ratings that include the werehog) it's probably close to half. Even closer if you take away the parts that are technically 3D but don't really allow for 3D gameplay like long rail grinds and QTE jump pads.

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I don't understand why Sonic Generations' Boost gameplay was a downgrade from Unleashed's? I've only played a little of Unleashed HD, but I can say that Sonic controls better in Generations, and stages like Modern Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill are rather big and have multiple paths you can take and a lot of secrets to explore.

I've mostly experienced Unleashed's stages through the Unleashed Project mod, and I can safely say that Unleashed's stages are waaay more linear and automated than Generations' stages are, but they're still fun either way. lol

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51 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

Snip

Unleashed isn't even that automated unless you're just playing the game by holding boost as much as possible without putting effort to improve the your gameplay.

Generations has more 3D(in most stages) and generally doesn't have as much Linearity/twitch based gameplay and instead goes in favor of mostly exploration. The exploration factor is alright although it's hard to even compliment this since stages like Seaside Hill are so cramped with little challenge put into it(a good portion of stages are like this). Same with Sky Sanctuary. Not much in the way of memorization or understanding of how the stages work.

In addition to that; The physics of Generations are a butchered version of Unleashed. Better control is the only thing I can give Generations. 

 

 

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Okay, problem in your hypothesis is that you haven't considered the other factors, such as the other attempts at 3D Sonic and 3D games that we point to on a near daily basis should be the foundation of doing 3D Sonic. A lot of fans bring up games like Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, Mario Odyssey (it used to be 64, but now that we've had a lot of time with it Odyssey is even more fitting now what with even having a roll function that even gains momentum and the game having an extreme focus on maneuverability in levels), Super Monkey Ball, fangame projects that go from Green Hill Paradise to Sonic Utopia to Sonic Islands, and tons and tons more that I could list off. There's plenty of ground that 3D Sonic has both covered and hasn't yet officially covered. There's a wide variety of how to make a 3D Sonic that we haven't even seen yet. 

Now while we're going in this direction of tried and true methodology I'll agree with one point that the problem with boost is that it hasn't evolved, but my counterpoint to this is if it isn't evolving now, 9 years after the first game of its kind, then when is it ever going to evolve? The problem I've seen is that right out the gate we saw all of what the boost gameplay in Sonic can do. And I still haven't seen anything that actually has changed that to expand to be anything more than corridors with obstacles, small rooms that look open but are there for decoration at best for you to drift through (not that the drift is bad, because that was sorely missing from Sonic Forces), and 2D sections that as a fan of Sonic's 2D outings? I've never been impressed with the 2D sections in the Boost games. Ever. That may be me just being hard to please, but the 2D sections show to me the flaws that this gameplay has that limit it as gameplay instead of expanding it to be more than its parts. Mario just had a game released that had 3D and 2D sections and they weren't at all jarring. They complimented and showed the strengths of the gameplay that if anything that it's versatile. Now compare to where speed would have been a reward in old Sonic games for good play. This is accomplishment. In the Boost games the best way to get accomplishment from these is to break the 2D sections to play like 3D sections and making them better to play in. That doesn't inspire much confidence. 

Players want to know that their investment to the time in a game means something in their personal interest. Mastery of skills that were easy to learn but took time and dedication to master can lead to a sense of accomplishment and is a common and easy way to bring people back to interest in your game. Engaging your player is also a really good idea and is one that notably bad games fail to realize. Two common failures of this is a player being lost to know what to do and the game playing itself. Guess which one Sonic falls in a lot of the time due to a formula like this. 

And I repeat, if one of your points will revolve around "out dated gameplay" I need to remind you that the Boost gameplay in 3D Sonic is now 9 years old and that it came from Sonic Rush that was 12 years ago in 2005. Not only are there older ways that have been tried and proven, but there are even newer and more interesting ways to experiment and form a new Sonic game around. So please don't go for that again. What killed Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 was not their approach to 3D gameplay. It was the bugs and glitches and age that plagued them on subsequent releases. Had they optimized the games better and maybe even fixed old problems, those ports might even be more respectable. I'm not even asking for more content. I'm asking for it to be engaging for me to want to come back to. But a dense amount of pleasing content wouldn't hurt if that's an answer you're comfortable with. 

My point is, there's still tons to do with 3D Sonic and now more than ever Sonic needs to go to something that worked out/works for other people and learn how to do that but in its own way. And personally, I'm still waiting to see the best 3D Sonic game that can give me the feeling that the Sonic CD cutscene gave me but with me getting to be in control of that. Because that is awesome. From this I could get anything like a platformer in the style of a skateboarding game, an action adventure game where the player is basically like a racecar at his fastest but with the maneuverability of an athlete, having basically an open world platformer with tons of goals to either do at my leisure or to do as quickly as possible because I'm Sonic the Hedgehog, etc. etc. I listed off three to keep this already long essay of a post to a shorter one. There's so much more ground we could cover. Now we need to consider letting people experiment and polish these into working builds of how to make Sonic in 3D work. 

Now tell me please. What is Boost Sonic doing to further Sonic as a game series and as a cultural icon? You're the one telling me that this is the only style of gameplay Sonic works in so please tell me what I'm missing here. Is there more substance or style? Will Sonic ever get to do anything that's more about fulfilling a task or staying stuck to the formula of Point A to Point B. And even then will getting from Point A to Point B be fun or will it be full of trial and error or the game playing itself? You even admit that the other games in this formula have been a disappointment to you while I feel the gameplay peaked in Generations and now would be the time to retire Boost for good. 

I mean really. What's your solution for Boost Gameplay getting better without completely overhauling what it is and turning it into a pure racing game?

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1 hour ago, LongcrierCat said:

That may be me just being hard to please, but the 2D sections show to me the flaws that this gameplay has that limit it as gameplay instead of expanding it to be more than its parts. Mario just had a game released that had 3D and 2D sections and they weren't at all jarring. They complimented and showed the strengths of the gameplay that if anything that it's versatile.

Agreed on the games after World Adventure. They lacked in the ability to do more 3D in my opinion which resulted in the games having nearly no flow from 3D to 2D. It stopped being a special homage that somehow turned into a gimmick for support.

Quote

 I'll agree with one point that the problem with boost is that it hasn't evolved, but my counterpoint to this is if it isn't evolving now, 9 years after the first game of its kind, then when is it ever going to evolve? The problem I've seen is that right out the gate we saw all of what the boost gameplay in Sonic can do. And I still haven't seen anything that actually has changed that to expand to be anything more than corridors with obstacles, small rooms that look open but are there for decoration at best for you to drift through 

As a big fan of World Adventure, I'd have to agree your perspective on this too. I loved the level design of the game yet I know it could have been improved in various places while still keeping the spirit of it intact(hell, it even had the right mechanic base for more momentum based gameplay) although I'm sad to say this development never happened. 

Largely due tot he team honestly...The Boost games require more effort, thought and planning put into it's gameplay far more than any other Sonic game. I don't think we've ever gotten the same level of workmanship since the Hashimoto days in bringing something entirely new to the table. I'm all for the discontinuation for boost Sonic as of now. 9 years too late...

This would be if Sonic 2's formula was used over and over again without providing necessary improvements on the level design, content etc. Same game different colors. Exactlt what Colors, Generations and Forces are.

 

1 hour ago, LongcrierCat said:

And I repeat, if one of your points will revolve around "out dated gameplay" I need to remind you that the Boost gameplay in 3D Sonic is now 9 years old and that it came from Sonic Rush that was 12 years ago in 2005.

Technically the boost games(Unleashed/Generations but more so Unleashed) are an amalgamation of many aspects in the franchise but you'd be correct. Rush was the first game to use that mechanic.

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On 11/22/2017 at 1:13 AM, LongcrierCat said:

Okay, problem in your hypothesis is that you haven't considered the other factors, such as the other attempts at 3D Sonic and 3D games that we point to on a near daily basis should be the foundation of doing 3D Sonic. A lot of fans bring up games like Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, Mario Odyssey (it used to be 64, but now that we've had a lot of time with it Odyssey is even more fitting now what with even having a roll function that even gains momentum and the game having an extreme focus on maneuverability in levels), Super Monkey Ball, fangame projects that go from Green Hill Paradise to Sonic Utopia to Sonic Islands, and tons and tons more that I could list off. There's plenty of ground that 3D Sonic has both covered and hasn't yet officially covered. There's a wide variety of how to make a 3D Sonic that we haven't even seen yet. 

Now while we're going in this direction of tried and true methodology I'll agree with one point that the problem with boost is that it hasn't evolved, but my counterpoint to this is if it isn't evolving now, 9 years after the first game of its kind, then when is it ever going to evolve? The problem I've seen is that right out the gate we saw all of what the boost gameplay in Sonic can do. And I still haven't seen anything that actually has changed that to expand to be anything more than corridors with obstacles, small rooms that look open but are there for decoration at best for you to drift through (not that the drift is bad, because that was sorely missing from Sonic Forces), and 2D sections that as a fan of Sonic's 2D outings? I've never been impressed with the 2D sections in the Boost games. Ever. That may be me just being hard to please, but the 2D sections show to me the flaws that this gameplay has that limit it as gameplay instead of expanding it to be more than its parts. Mario just had a game released that had 3D and 2D sections and they weren't at all jarring. They complimented and showed the strengths of the gameplay that if anything that it's versatile. Now compare to where speed would have been a reward in old Sonic games for good play. This is accomplishment. In the Boost games the best way to get accomplishment from these is to break the 2D sections to play like 3D sections and making them better to play in. That doesn't inspire much confidence. 

Players want to know that their investment to the time in a game means something in their personal interest. Mastery of skills that were easy to learn but took time and dedication to master can lead to a sense of accomplishment and is a common and easy way to bring people back to interest in your game. Engaging your player is also a really good idea and is one that notably bad games fail to realize. Two common failures of this is a player being lost to know what to do and the game playing itself. Guess which one Sonic falls in a lot of the time due to a formula like this. 

And I repeat, if one of your points will revolve around "out dated gameplay" I need to remind you that the Boost gameplay in 3D Sonic is now 9 years old and that it came from Sonic Rush that was 12 years ago in 2005. Not only are there older ways that have been tried and proven, but there are even newer and more interesting ways to experiment and form a new Sonic game around. So please don't go for that again. What killed Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 was not their approach to 3D gameplay. It was the bugs and glitches and age that plagued them on subsequent releases. Had they optimized the games better and maybe even fixed old problems, those ports might even be more respectable. I'm not even asking for more content. I'm asking for it to be engaging for me to want to come back to. But a dense amount of pleasing content wouldn't hurt if that's an answer you're comfortable with. 

My point is, there's still tons to do with 3D Sonic and now more than ever Sonic needs to go to something that worked out/works for other people and learn how to do that but in its own way. And personally, I'm still waiting to see the best 3D Sonic game that can give me the feeling that the Sonic CD cutscene gave me but with me getting to be in control of that. Because that is awesome. From this I could get anything like a platformer in the style of a skateboarding game, an action adventure game where the player is basically like a racecar at his fastest but with the maneuverability of an athlete, having basically an open world platformer with tons of goals to either do at my leisure or to do as quickly as possible because I'm Sonic the Hedgehog, etc. etc. I listed off three to keep this already long essay of a post to a shorter one. There's so much more ground we could cover. Now we need to consider letting people experiment and polish these into working builds of how to make Sonic in 3D work. 

Now tell me please. What is Boost Sonic doing to further Sonic as a game series and as a cultural icon? You're the one telling me that this is the only style of gameplay Sonic works in so please tell me what I'm missing here. Is there more substance or style? Will Sonic ever get to do anything that's more about fulfilling a task or staying stuck to the formula of Point A to Point B. And even then will getting from Point A to Point B be fun or will it be full of trial and error or the game playing itself? You even admit that the other games in this formula have been a disappointment to you while I feel the gameplay peaked in Generations and now would be the time to retire Boost for good. 

I mean really. What's your solution for Boost Gameplay getting better without completely overhauling what it is and turning it into a pure racing game?

You do realize that Unleashed had more open levels, more flexibility, and more complexity than the boost games after it right? The problem with many people here is you oddly believe Boost sonic isn't evolving becuase it cant, but the truth is that it's been devolving into cheaper efforts.

On 11/21/2017 at 7:59 PM, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

 

Unleashed isn't even that automated unless you're just playing the game by holding boost as much as possible without putting effort to improve the your gameplay.

Generations has more 3D(in most stages) and generally doesn't have as much Linearity/twitch based gameplay and instead goes in favor of mostly exploration. The exploration factor is alright although it's hard to even compliment this since stages like Seaside Hill are so cramped with little challenge put into it(a good portion of stages are like this). Same with Sky Sanctuary. Not much in the way of memorization or understanding of how the stages work.

In addition to that; The physics of Generations are a butchered version of Unleashed. Better control is the only thing I can give Generations. 

 

 

Generations doesn't have more 3D than unleashed.

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