Should The Next 3D Sonic Game Forget About Story?

[SpongicX]

It appears that Sonic Forces mostly took 4 years to make, because it took Sega about 3 years to try making the plot for the game. The plot was a mixed up mess, and felt rushed, and the gameplay was pretty bland and wonky.

Should Sega focus more on gameplay first, and add the story later, or just not have a story at all? At this point, I don’t care about story anymore, Sega just doesn’t understand why fans love certain characters anymore, and makes them look pale, compared to their development, abilities, and personalities from the early 3d adventure games. What’s the point in wasting time on stories, when Sega clearly doesn’t care anymore? For a story that took about 3 years to make, the story for Forces felt very unfinished.

At this rate, I want to see them focus on reinventing 3d Sonic. Maybe they should try making a game that mixes Sonic’s controls and abilities from the Adventure games, while having the boost from Unleashed. Have levels that are designed for exploration, while including segments that are suitable for boosting through. Having optional playable characters would be nice as well. 

At this point, Sega is focusing too much on story, and less on improving gameplay, level designs, and controls. It ends up lowering the replay value, compared to games like Sonic Adventure. Until Sega can get back on their feet, should they hold back on story for now? They could at least have an opening and ending cutscene, to help give an idea of why Sonic is going through these different levels, but we don’t really need nonstop cutscenes of characters standing around and doing nothing but chatter.

[Sean]

When it comes to Sonic, I always care about gameplay first and foremost. Sonic stories don't ever really do it for me, and even though in another topic I've called SA2's story technically my favorite one, it's still marred with some pretty extreme problems.

I think excuse plots are fine. What I would like is more character interaction. Sega can stick with generic "Eggman wants to take over the world" plots if they want to but I really do want any excuse to see these characters intermingle in meaningful, entertaining, and charming ways. That's something I care about separately from story, and even though I still place gameplay above that in terms of importance, I still want to see Sonic interacting with his friends more often because I think a lot of them have cute dynamics when handled right.

This is why I don't consider it a problem that Mario and Kirby don't have deep plots. They fucking nail their respective gameplays perfectly, and they have extremely charming character interaction to boot. I mean, just look at the cutscenes for Kirby's Dream Land 3 and Kirby 64. That's all I want out of Sonic too.

[Diogenes]

Not entirely. Story matters, but it should be secondary to the gameplay. I say drop the attempts at serious, "epic" stories and focus on making a game that's fun to play and characters that are actually likable.

[SpongicX]

I agree, it is a shame that Sonic stories aren’t how they used to be. For me, the best parts of Sonic Forces was seeing the other characters in one area talking, or fighting. We barely got any scenes like that, and were instead forced to watch Sonic make cheesy preachings about friendship, seeing the Avatar just nod their head and say “hm”, or hear Tails whine about Sonic, and explain everything. I felt everyone else felt unnecessary to the plot, which is a shame. I wanted to see them do more than just stand around, or pull off one attack.

Sega clearly doesn’t care for these characters, and put them into the game with no passion or understanding for why fans love them. It’s bad enough they weren’t playable, but just showing up through communicators wasn’t exciting. It was all tell, but don’t show. Sega basically “Forced” them into the game and thought “there, you happy now?...” Just appearing briefly still isn’t exciting enough.

[Osmium]

How come whenever something doesn't work out perfectly people think the answer is going full stop to the other side of the spectrum? For Christ's sake, no we shouldn't "forget about story", we should just get competent story-writers who can take a lot of caution and care. 

Gameplay is obviously first though 

[Multikaris]

Yes...

 

as as long as no story means no story and not throwing in some namby-pamby slapped together piece of garbage ala Colors, Gens, and Lost World. 

[Bowbowis]

What I think is that everybody, fans and SEGA alike, needs to stop treating gameplay and story like a zero-sum where one must necessarily come at the expense of the other. Video games, like films, are a blend of various art forms which go together to create a cohesive whole. Similarly game design is not a free-for-all where everyone goes and works on whatever, it's a collaboration of specialists. The voice actors aren't animating the characters, the level designers aren't writing the script, and the programmers aren't storyboarding the cutscenes. The artists need to communicate in order to ensure consistency, but if one team fails to turn out a quality product it is squarely on them and their incompetence. No amount of shifting focus is going to change that.

To suggest that the answer to a game with bad gameplay is "put less effort into the story" is silly. Just as it would be silly to suggest the answer to a film with bad set design is "put less effort into the soundtrack". A better answer in either scenario would be to hire better people to work on set design/gameplay.

[Razule]

At this point, yes, I'd prefer they just made simple video game-y stories. Not quite as far as the classics, but maybe look at the story of 3 & K and Mania and expand on that kind of story. Or maybe even look at modern Mario's stories. There should be still be dialogue and character interactions, but.. could they just stop with the melodrama? We don't need characters talking about the hardships of war. 

I know a lot of people like Adventure 2's story but it was kind of the beginning of everything that would culminate into Shadow and 06. Government conspiracies and militaries and child murder.. I don't think it should be the bar.

[StaticMania]

Sonic has been focusing too much on story? I'll believe that for Sonic Forces, but not anything from the 6 years before that.

I don't think it really matters if they get stories or not anyway, though.

[JosepHenry]

As good old Inf- I mean Mephiles would say: The answer is yes... and no.

What they should do imo

A basic Eggman wants to conquer the world plot.

BUT with character interaction and world buliding. Let us care about the places we go, let us care about the characters we see. I don't care about a plot like Forces because they tried to show us something great, and what we got was the worst possible. I don't want everything to be a ray of sunshine with jumping flowers and birds singing. Gimme a basic 3K plot with charcater interaction that's all. And no need to drop the "epicness" of Sonic totally. Throw a Super Sonic final boss, an intimidating final level and bosses, no need for characters to talk how bad war is.

Have scenes with characters doing wacky stuff, playing around, bonding, things like that would make a Sonic story interesting, no matter how basic the main plot is.

[Razule]

You know.. isn't a simple story with character interactions kinda what they did with Colors to Lost World? And people wanted more serious and epic and "Adventure"-y, so Forces happened? 

I think we gotta really make it more clear what we'd like a Sonic story to be like. Because I kinda see why, in a way, SEGA must be going in circles over what fans want. So many people want so many different things, and it's impossible to appeal to everyone. I think what they should do is try to do the story in a way that would appeal to a majority fans AND a general audience.

[Multikaris]

1 minute ago, Razule said:

You know.. isn't a simple story with character interactions kinda what they did with Colors to Lost World? And people wanted more serious and epic and "Adventure"-y, so Forces happened? 

I think we gotta really make it more clear what we'd like a Sonic story to be like. Because I kinda see why, in a way, SEGA must be going in circles over what fans want. So many people want so many different things, and it's impossible to appeal to everyone. I think what they should do is try to do the story in a way that would appeal to a majority fans AND a general audience.

No, it wasn’t. It almost was, but then they added in the stupid jokes, attempts at cliffhangers that went nowhere, Ren and Stimpy-like breakdowns of character, fruitless rehashing, noxious comic relief, and no sense of satisfaction.

[RedFox99]

46 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

No, it wasn’t. It almost was, but then they added in the stupid jokes, attempts at cliffhangers that went nowhere, Ren and Stimpy-like breakdowns of character, fruitless rehashing, noxious comic relief, and no sense of satisfaction.

And Amy and Knuckles were mostly pointless along with most of the other characters.

[Bowbowis]

Just now, RedFox99 said:

And Amy and Knuckles were mostly pointless.

Mostly?

[Razule]

4 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

No, it wasn’t. It almost was, but then they added in the stupid jokes, attempts at cliffhangers that went nowhere, Ren and Stimpy-like breakdowns of character, fruitless rehashing, noxious comic relief, and no sense of satisfaction.

Yeah, exactly. There's always a catch.

[RedFox99]

Just now, Bowbowis said:

Mostly?

I mean you could argue that served to show the effects of the Life draining machine and Amy did help the Flickies.

[StaticMania]

Just now, RedFox99 said:

And Amy and Knuckles were mostly pointless.

They had a point, if they didn't die...it wouldn't have made Sonic sad nor show off the true impact of Eggman's machine.

[Pengi]

1 hour ago, SpongicX said:

It appears that Sonic Forces mostly took 4 years to make, because it took Sega about 3 years to try making the plot for the game.

 

This isn't even remotely true.

[Dr. Mechano]

The last 3D Sonic already forgot about story, effectively ripping what was left of the series' continuity apart.

I think that Sonic Team needs to focus on writing likable characters and creating a cohesive world that we as viewers can actually get invested in. In my opinion, right now the series has neither of these things, and that's why smacking us over the head with doom and gloom is unlikely to elicit more than an "Eh..." from most people.

Honestly, at this point I feel like improving the story of this series is entirely theoretical anyway. I don't see Sonic Team in its current state ever clawing their way out of the hole they've been digging for the past 15 years.

[Razule]

12 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

 

Honestly, at this point I feel like improving the story of this series is entirely theoretical anyway. I don't see Sonic Team in its current state ever clawing their way out of the hole they've been digging for the past 15 years.

Then that's it, huh..? It's over. There's nothing to do.. but watch the slow march to Sonic Team's next 06. Maybe next game.. maybe the game after that. Maybe 2026, to be convenient.  The end of the Sonikku za Hejihoggu franchise.. is nigh.

But really though, I guess there's not really many signs of hope.

[SpongicX]

54 minutes ago, Razule said:

You know.. isn't a simple story with character interactions kinda what they did with Colors to Lost World? And people wanted more serious and epic and "Adventure"-y, so Forces happened? 

I think we gotta really make it more clear what we'd like a Sonic story to be like. Because I kinda see why, in a way, SEGA must be going in circles over what fans want. So many people want so many different things, and it's impossible to appeal to everyone. I think what they should do is try to do the story in a way that would appeal to a majority fans AND a general audience.

That is the problem. The characters used to be seen as heroes in the eyes of the players, but Sega does nothing exciting with them anymore, they make it look like they can't do anything on their own any more, and always have to rely on Sonic for everything. We don't even get instances where they want to help out, only for Sonic to tell them to stay back. Imagine how much more interesting Tails would have been in Forces, if he wanted to help save Sonic multiple times, only for Sonic to tell him to stay back and stay safe. It would have been more interesting for Tails to fight Sonic's advice, because he knows he can be of use. Instead, we see Tails constantly hiding, cowering, and letting Sonic do all the work. It really bugged me when Sonic, Avatar, and Classic Sonic ran towards the final boss in Sonic Forces, yet all Tails did was stand there giving a "Free Willy" boxart pose.

Damn it Tails! You used to be more heroic than that! I don't care if Tails wasn't playable in the final battle, it still would have been nice to see Tails doing something. Even Sonic Colors at least had a scene before the final battle, where Sonic sends Tails down safely, despite how Tails wanted to help out. That didn't come off as a scene of Tails being useless, it came off as Sonic trying to protect his friend. 

In Sonic Adventure, we've seen these characters grow into more heroic characters, and saw more of that in Adventure 2, yet all of a sudden, all of that development went away after 06. We saw Tails go from the sidekick to a hero in his own right, who saved a city from Eggman all by himself, we saw more of the tragedy of Knuckles wanting to have a better life, but knowing he has to put up with his responsibilities, and we saw Amy learn that she'll never earn Sonic's respect, by always having to rely on him to save her. We saw these characters grow, and it left us wanting to see them tackle things more heroically in the sequels. However, that eventually went away, and now all of Sonic's friends can't do a dang thing without Sonic.

I liked it better when even Sonic needed help from his friends. I have a hard time believing only Sonic can get things done. It was so cool in the older games to see the characters going on their own journeys, which crossed paths with Sonic. We got to see Sonic's friends needing help from each other, while Sonic also needed help from them. It was great to see Tails, Knuckles, and Amy have their own enemies they had to take down, while also having enemies they had to take down alongside Sonic. We don't see that anymore. Sure, the characters got to fight in Forces, but we barely saw them fight, the focus went back to Sonic, Classic Sonic, and Avatar. We only saw the characters land one hit on weak clones of villains from past Sonic games. It didn't feel like a struggle. Adventure 2 did a good job at having the characters come together at the end to stop Gerald Robotnik's revenge scheme. The novelty of seeing each characters doing something to contribute to saving the world was exciting, we didn't really get any moments like that in Forces. We saw Silver trying to fight Infinite, only to get his ass kicked too quickly. I had a hard time believing only Sonic, and Avatar could fight Infinite, and felt Silver should have been able to put up a better fight than that. 

The problem is that Sega just doesn't care, we keep expecting and hoping for them to do better, but they just don't seem dedicated to doing any better. If they're not going to bother trying to make decent plots, then what's the point in making plots any more? While plots add to a game, the most important thing in video games aren't the stories, but the gameplay, and the impression they leave upon playing and beating the game. These past few Sonic games have felt empty to me. I blame both story and gameplay, I think both have an equal part in why the games turned out as underwhelming as others claim. I'm not saying they need to give up on story entirely, but I want to see them improve on gameplay first, before putting so much focus on story. 

[RedFox99]

Someone pointed how even in the Adventures games, once Super Sonic appeared, the rest of thd characters took a back seat to him and relied on him to fight. It could be nice to have them help defeat the final boss as well.

[knuckles20]

They should get writers who know what the hell they’re doing.

[antyep]

1 minute ago, knuckles20 said:

They should get writers who know what the hell they’re doing.

Even if they do, Sega’s law would get in the way. Seriously some of the stuff they cut off from Forces, like Shadow’s unused dialogue would’ve made the game a little better.

[SpongicX]

13 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Someone pointed how even in the Advneture games, once Super Sonic appeared, the rest of thd characters took a back seat to him and relied on him to fight. It could be nice to have them help defeat the final boss as well.

To be fair, I can understand why they couldn't. It would have been too hard to show all of the characters go super, and have them taking down Perfect Chaos at that same time. Around the time the game was made, it looked like only one character could go super at a time, while sequels revealed how up to three characters can go super at once. What much could have Sonic's pals have done without super forms? They would have been washed up and drowned by Perfect Chaos. They still had a part in finding the chaos emeralds for Sonic. I felt the characters did all they could to help Sonic at that point. All they could do is stand back, and hope that Sonic could take Perfect Chaos down. To be honest, Sonic was the most suitable for taking down Perfect Chaos. While you can argue that Tails can fly, I don't think he has enough speed to strike fast and hard enough at Perfect Chaos's brain. Sonic had enough speed to blast through such raging bodies of water. 

In the end, we have to remember that Sonic is the main character, so he's always going to be the main focus in taking down the final bosses, but that doesn't mean the characters can't be shown giving it their all, up until everything rests in Sonic's hands.We can't expect Sega to have us controlling all of Sonic's friends in super form, it would be too much for the game to handle. We also don't need a lengthier final battle split apart between phases of taking control of Sonic, Tails, Amy, and Knuckles. For the most part in modern Sonic games, it's not the lack of characters in the final battles that bugs me, but it's the lack of including them in everything before the final battle that bugs me.