Homing Attack: Want or Do Not Want?

[JezMM]

And sorry if I sound annoyed on this part, but I don't recall ever mentioning the possibility of combos so much as deciding which direction you fly in immediately after a HA.

It was more aimed at everyone in general who were talking about the homing attack idea, not just you. I'm sure other people hinted at more possibilities than just aiming the spin attack.

The homing attack brings too many problems in the game (i.e. missing target and falling into a pit), please get rid of it.

Lol, what? The homing attack never misses unless you're facing the wrong way or weren't close enough (not a problem anymore thanks to a visible targeting system). Most people here dislike it due to feeling too restrictive due to it's preciseness, not the opposite.

[serpx]

It was more aimed at everyone in general who were talking about the homing attack idea, not just you. I'm sure other people hinted at more possibilities than just aiming the spin attack.

Lol, what? The homing attack never misses unless you're facing the wrong way or weren't close enough (not a problem anymore thanks to a visible targeting system). Most people here dislike it due to feeling too restrictive due to it's preciseness, not the opposite.

You've never used the homing attack and got yourself into a situation that ended up killing you?

Sonic Unleashed was more polished about it, though it still happened -- Sonic 06, however ... jesus.

[Ebby]

The homing attack brings too many problems in the game (i.e. missing target and falling into a pit), please get rid of it.

I'll be honest. I've been there. Plenty of times. But it's not so much of a downer in that it can kill the fun of the game. If you play Crazy Gadget ten times in a row, even if you suck hard at it like I do, I'm sure you'll die from a homing attack fluke once. Just once, if that.

[Phos]

I think that randomly dieing is a bit too serious a problem to brush off as "not that bad".

The only actual point I made is how bad the reasoning is - I mean, dumbing down something because "it isn't necessary"?

"Because it's necessary" is really the only defense of the Homing Attack I've ever heard that actually held any water.

Right, I guess we should remove the option to block in fighting/beat-em-up games,

Power Stone? Streets of Rage?

or the ability to jump in shooters,

Rainbow Six?

or the ability to roll in Sonic games

The other moves in Sonic Unleashed duplicated many of rolling's functions, but remained a problematic choice because it replaced a single versatile move with a large number of more situational moves, many of which are already harder to use individually. Sonic, being popular among children, has a good chance of being someone's first video game, so ease of use is important.

As for your idea of using the homing attack to close in, and then following it with something else, that's already been done, or at least something similar to it. This isn't me decrying it for being unoriginal, I'm decrying it because the game that already did it was Too Human. It sucked, the only reason to ever end a slide with anything but the regular hit was to build combo meter or versus a boss/miniboss... Unless I'm totally misreading you, and you're suggesting something more like Taokaka's drive, which takes way too much concentration it use continuously for that long.

Lol, what? The homing attack never misses unless you're facing the wrong way or weren't close enough (not a problem anymore thanks to a visible targeting system). Most people here dislike it due to feeling too restrictive due to it's preciseness, not the opposite.

Mazuri Day - The homing attack will often target the swinging poles even though it seldom latches on to them. It hilariously happened twice in a row when Sega was showing it off live on Gamespot's "On the Spot", killing Sonic both times. It also sounds to me like you aren't counting the times when you Boosted instead of HA'ed, which usually kills you.

[Remy]

Neato, you ignored every decent point I moved and focused on the mindless rambling. Good show, A+ for you. Next time I'll proofread, or summarize so you can comprehend what I'm getting at.

It could be as simple as launching you in the direction the control stick's tilted in when a HA hits an enemy, and just have the stomp and jump buttons to substitute for "up" and "down" when the need arises. There are probably better ways about it though.

How do you suggest one to use the control stick to choose their homing attack option when they're already using said stick to steer their original jump?

Yes, I have no doubt a majority of its usage would consist of going straight forwards, but it could still find its uses as a platforming aid as per the classic flip, or a method of getting you and/or an enemy to the ground quickly, which can be pretty important advantages given the right context.

Or what about a move that get's you close to the enemy /and/ kills them! Hot damn, that'd be pretty advantageous!

OH, THE IRONY. He has a lot more options than that and you damn well know it - them not showing up until the 21st century isn't an excuse. Irregardless...

Did I miss any?

blah blah blah directional control

The player can steer Sonic after a homing attack anyway.

the homing attacks real problem is that it rarely fuckin works

[Blacklightning]

I think that randomly dieing is a bit too serious a problem to brush off as "not that bad".

That's more the fault of programming error than it is of the actual move, though.

As for your idea of using the homing attack to close in, and then following it with something else, that's already been done, or at least something similar to it. This isn't me decrying it for being unoriginal, I'm decrying it because the game that already did it was Too Human. It sucked, the only reason to ever end a slide with anything but the regular hit was to build combo meter or versus a boss/miniboss... Unless I'm totally misreading you, and you're suggesting something more like Taokaka's drive, which takes way too much concentration it use continuously for that long.

I'm not familiar with the latter personally, unlike the former, so you'll have to educate me on that. Regardless, the application here is a fair bit different to, oh say, Too Human, whereas it was used moreso in a combat application, as opposed to a navigation aid / momentum boost like I'm trying to propose.

How do you suggest one to use the control stick to choose their homing attack option when they're already using said stick to steer their original jump?

Adjust in mid-transit, while you're already homing and don't have any control over where you're flying. With the delay between execution and impact it wouldn't be a hell of a lot different from an increase in air control anyway.

Or what about a move that get's you close to the enemy /and/ kills them! Hot damn, that'd be pretty advantageous!

Already mentioned that, actually. Check back a few posts.

Did I miss any?

The entire movelist of Sonic Battle and Championship, for starters. We're forgetting two very important details though:

1. A moveset need not be restrained to stuff the character's already done before.

2. I didn't even bring up the prospect of a deep moveset in the first place.

The player can steer Sonic after a homing attack anyway.

Completely missing the point. I'm aware you can actually move after a HA, and that isn't the problem - the problem is that no momentum is conserved, immediately bringing you to a complete standstill in the air after impact, breaking flow and causing a lot of stop-start gameplay whenever enemies are involved. And when this process is so tedious that people actually abandon it altogether in favour of getting things over and done with as soon as possible you know something has gone wrong.

[Remy]

I'm not familiar with the latter personally, unlike the former, so you'll have to educate me on that. Regardless, the application here is a fair bit different to, oh say, Too Human, whereas it was used moreso in a combat application, as opposed to a navigation aid / momentum boost like I'm trying to propose.

Too human's kind closes you into the enemy but once you get close you kinda of flail around either hitting an enemy up, slicing them, oh doing nothing. :S I blame this more on too humans brilliant idea to control all combat with two sticks, though.

Adjust in mid-transit, while you're already homing and don't have any control over where you're flying. With the delay between execution and impact it wouldn't be a hell of a lot different from an increase in air control anyway.

That to me, seems like it would be incredibly unwieldy. I can't really see any gain in coming out below an enemy or to the side of one though

the problem is that no momentum is conserved, immediately bringing you to a complete standstill in the air after impact, breaking flow and causing a lot of stop-start gameplay whenever enemies are involved. And when this process is so tedious that people actually abandon it altogether in favour of getting things over and done with as soon as possible you know something has gone wrong.

Most people speed running do everything possible to avoid combat, regardless of game.

I think perhaps a homing attack that maintains speed could be interesting though. ie. you go through at an angle that allows you to keep running fast after

[Blacklightning]

Too human's kind closes you into the enemy but once you get close you kinda of flail around either hitting an enemy up, slicing them, oh doing nothing. :S I blame this more on too humans brilliant idea to control all combat with two sticks, though.

Nonono, I meant the Taokaka thing Phos was talking about. I've actually played Too Human start to finish - it kinda looks cool when it's nothing but slides. The rest of the moves didn't really work that well and usually weren't even necessary. Like you said though, would've worked better with buttons.

That to me, seems like it would be incredibly unwieldy. I can really see any gain in coming out below an enemy or to the side of one though

Like I said earlier, the level design would have to be built to utilize it. You might have to get around a tight corner with the only possible method being pivoting off a HA-able object or enemy, as a random example. As far as going downwards after a hit goes, well, sometimes you just need to get to the ground quickly to make the most of the gimmicks down below. I could definently imagine it being effective in Unleashed too, seeing as you were universally faster on the ground instead of the air.

EDIT: Actually, I just had a thought regarding the "mid-transit" bit - the HA would still home in on an enemy to a basic degree when used, but fiddling with it in transit would curve your trajectory and alter the direction you impact from. For example, holding right while flying would cause you to arc over to the left of the enemy, bounce off/through/whatthefuckever and emerge on the right side with momentum intact. That way, you have a bit of visual feedback that you're actually changing things, not to mention it looks less like a straight charge and more like a goddamned airal ballet.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Blacklightning

[Remy]

Nonono, I meant the Taokaka thing Phos was talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjhBDbu2qTIAnyway. Taokaka is the cat like character, it's a little hard to point out exactly what we mean without you having played the game but if you pay attention to the combos at around 0:50 and later at around 1:12 ish you'll notice the Taokaka (the cat) player dashing towards (you can tell by the distinct vocal clip) and smacking the other guy, this is done with a button press and can be done in various directions with various follow ups. I would find this hard to bring across to 3D

Your trajectory changing idea, to me, still seems like overkill.

[Arrow]

The homing attack is required in the 3d games, I think. I've often thought it could easily be adapted to do more than just attack, especially if the button to "home" was different to the jump button... Could be used to home into things that you grab, or tiny platforms sonic could balance on. It would mean you could bound through environments and obstacles, defeating enemies fast whilst still feeling like you're playing the game and not like the game is playing for you. Whilst simple, anyone who's played Sly Raccoon will know what I mean. Sly Raccoon was amazing, because it let you do things that look and feel complicated, but really aren't. Sonic fails at this by making it feel like you simply aren't even playing. there needs to be some control, on the games part, to stop you flying off platforms at high speed, whilst not feeling like it's preventing you from doing what YOU want to do.

[SykoTech]

Whilst simple, anyone who's played Sly Raccoon will know what I mean. Sly Raccoon was amazing, because it let you do things that look and feel complicated, but really aren't.

Sly Cooper, actually. He is a raccoon, but that's not his last name.[/nitpicking]

But I'd agree, Sly uses the homing function in wonderous fashion. Makes the player feel that they are truly a quick, stealthy thief. I myself feel Sonic is suited to a flow more similar to Sly (not Mario....despite everyone comparing them every 5 seconds). He's characterized as being able take down enemies and platform at great speeds, so some sort of homing function is necessary for Sonic to do so property.

The problem is the way they've been using it.

However, like Jez, I feel Sonic Unleashed used it pretty well. Well, at least the HD version. Wii/PS2 used it as a replace for the complete lack of platforming, talk about spamming. But the PS360 version had some quick, Sly-like platforming methods used for it. It wasn't put together as well as Sly, but it was good. I really liked the quick timing way it was used in Spagonia 2-2.

I've never really hated the Homing Attack, but Unleashed PS3 is the only time I can say I liked it. Everywhere else, nothing special...but not necessarily crap.

[JezMM]

Mazuri Day - The homing attack will often target the swinging poles even though it seldom latches on to them. It hilariously happened twice in a row when Sega was showing it off live on Gamespot's "On the Spot", killing Sonic both times. It also sounds to me like you aren't counting the times when you Boosted instead of HA'ed, which usually kills you.

Crap, you've got me there, though as people said, that's a fault of programming, not the move's design. In fact, more than that, it's a fault of the programming of that area in particular I think.

Yeah, it is easy to boost instead of HA, but I can't think of any times (i.e. it can't have been a persistant problem to stick in my mind), where I felt my death was undeserving. I've never had it happen WHILE the enemy or gimmick in question was targetted.

The downside to targetting is that there has to be a cut-off point for direction and distance. When you air boost instead of HA, it's because you were JUST too early (i.e., presumed the target was about to appear), or JUST too late (you somehow went out of range, and the target dissapeared, at the EXACT moment you pushed the button). It's hard to come up with a warning system. Perhaps make the target turn red half a second before you go out of range.

the homing attacks real problem is that it rarely fuckin works

Just wanted to satisfy a personal peeve here by replying to this. I mean, come on now. "Rarely" works? That's a bit of an overstatement. The closest I could say is "it occasionally doesn't work". Obviously, "occasionally" is enough to be a problem, I won't deny that.

Anyway, I'll sum up my opinion thus far:

-OVERALL: The homing attack in concept is fine.

-PLATFORMING: The kind of "puzzles" seen in many bonus levels of Sonic Unleashed need to appear in regular stages, leading to fun alternate routes, with only the standard route containing the usual "homing attack across a pit" routine.

-BUGS: Sonic Team's ongoing battle for fine-tuning the homing attack should continue.

-COMBAT: No need for complicating the homing attack - if you want more ways to beat enemies, make some enemies only defeatable with the bounce attack, boost, spin dash, or regular spin attack, perhaps. Complex movesets lead to enemies with health bars, which'd just slow down the pace of the game.

[Arrow]

Sly Cooper, actually. He is a raccoon, but that's not his last name.[/nitpicking]

The GAME is called Sly Raccoon.

EDIT: Appears that in Europe it got the title Sly Raccoon, whilst elsewhere it was Sly Cooper.

Proof so you don't think I'm retarded. XD

"Sly Cooper is the main protagonist of the Sly Cooper video game series (the first game in the series is known as Sly Raccoon in Europe, but the character's name remains the same in both versions)" - Wikipedia

REGARDLESS, it's one of the BEST games I've ever played. The sequal is even better, and even playing as the other chars isn't that irratating. It's quick, clever, the art is beatuiful.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Arrow

[Remy]

Just wanted to satisfy a personal peeve here by replying to this. I mean, come on now. "Rarely" works? That's a bit of an overstatement. The closest I could say is "it occasionally doesn't work". Obviously, "occasionally" is enough to be a problem, I won't deny that.

Yeah, rarely is an overstatement, but the fact it can back fire is enough for it to be a problem.

[SuperStingray]

I don't have many problems with the homing attack. It could certainly use some improvement, but I don't think it contributes to automation in the gameplay. I mean, it's not like you just blindly press A twice; you DO have to aim at the enemy you want to hit and Sonic Unleashed and Secret Rings definitely made timing an important factor.

I think the presence of a homing system in a 2D game is ridiculous, but a homing function of some sort, even if it's not an attack, is vital for the 3D games.

[Auther]

My only solution for the Homing Attack is to make it so when you hold down the A button in the air a target will appear on an enemy and if you keep holding the button Sonic will home attack it, and if you target the wrong enemy you can use the L or R buttons to target a different enemy.

[Carbo]

My only solution for the Homing Attack is to make it so when you hold down the A button in the air a target will appear on an enemy and if you keep holding the button Sonic will home attack it, and if you target the wrong enemy you can use the L or R buttons to target a different enemy.

That kind of button layout would be a bit too complicated imo. I suggest using the Prototype approach, lock-on with a seperate button, prefferabely the shoulder buttons and target change using the right stick.

[JezMM]

You can always see most possible targets due to level layout, and changing Sonic's direction with the control stick is usually sufficient for selecting a different target. At high speeds, such a method would be cumbersome.

[Arrow]

Yeah, mutiple buttons to do what can be done with one or two at most is rediculously ott. I can't think of a situation where hitting the wrong target had ever been a problem in a sonic game. The levels shoud be arranged that way.

[Blacklightning]

That kind of button layout would be a bit too complicated imo. I suggest using the Prototype approach, lock-on with a seperate button, prefferabely the shoulder buttons and target change using the right stick.

Considering Prototype had to slow the entire game down to make that viable, I can imagine it being more of a pain in the ass in a Sonic game than anything else. In a more fighting-based game, sure, a little bullet time is generous and acceptable, but this is the kind of game where you're usually going somewhere in a hurry and don't want to waste more time than it's worth.

Quite frankly, I don't see what's wrong with Unleashed's method of targeting. The game automatically gives you lockon based on the nearest enemy of your approximate facing, and you switch targets by turning around to face another target. No buttons involved at all. Is there really a need for anything more complicated than that?

[Rusty Spy]

Prototype had to slow the entire game down to make that viable, I can imagine it being more of a pain in the ass in a Sonic game than anything else. In a more fighting-based game, sure, a little bullet time is generous and acceptable, but this is the kind of game where you're usually going somewhere in a hurry and don't want to waste more time than it's worth.

Quite frankly, I don't see what's wrong with Unleashed's method of targeting. The game automatically gives you lockon based on the nearest enemy of your approximate facing, and you switch targets by turning around to face another target. No buttons involved at all. Is there really a need for anything more complicated than that?

True that. And the last thing Sonic needs to have is a complicated moveset.

[Saint Nathan]

You know, it was a good invention, but it's come to the point where you can't kill anything easily without it, and that's not cool.

Now, a homing SPIN ATTACK, where you can target enemies while revving up, would be GREAT in a 3D game. Not only would it make the spindash useful, and hopefully added back into the 3D, but it would look quit a bit cooler and could work better. You could aim and target what you wanted to hit, not just the closest thing, and Sonic would look really cool slicing though enemies after a spindash.

Sonic Unleashed made it so you could attack enemies rather EASILY by jumping on them. Take some speed out (Acctually, just acelleration time would work too) and we wouden't even need the homing attack, and it would feel great.

[JezMM]

^ Completely disagree with the above post.

Until someone comes up with a replacement that doesn't slow the flow of speed down, there's nothing better than the homing attack in my mind.

Unfortunately no-one has come up with a speedy replacement yet. Of course then again, I utterly bum Sonic Unleashed like there's no tomorrow, whereas most people find it too fast.

Edited August 21, 2009 by JezMM

[Arrow]

Unfortunately no-one has come up with a speedy replacement yet. Of course then again, I utterly bum Sonic Unleashed like there's no tomorrow, whereas most people find it too fast.

It's too fast because you're not actually doing anything yourself in the day levels.

[Remy]

It's too fast because you're not actually doing anything yourself in the day levels.

Wrong.