Homing Attack: Want or Do Not Want?

[JezMM]

Yeah, in all fairness, I'd like to see you beat -any- day level in Sonic Unleashed by just holding Up. Especially on the 360 version.

And then let's see you get all S ranks by "doing nothing", fucking hell that was a beast of a challenge. D=

Edited August 21, 2009 by JezMM

[Carbo]

Considering Prototype had to slow the entire game down to make that viable, I can imagine it being more of a pain in the ass in a Sonic game than anything else. In a more fighting-based game, sure, a little bullet time is generous and acceptable, but this is the kind of game where you're usually going somewhere in a hurry and don't want to waste more time than it's worth.

Quite frankly, I don't see what's wrong with Unleashed's method of targeting. The game automatically gives you lockon based on the nearest enemy of your approximate facing, and you switch targets by turning around to face another target. No buttons involved at all. Is there really a need for anything more complicated than that?

Talking about generally nerfing the Homing Attack here so that it'd only work in the lock on fashion and at all other times as an ordinary air dash. Mainly because its considered oh-so-cheap apparently. Split second bullet-time would not bother me at all since it doesn't really break flow, just breaks the in-game general speed. You dont have to speed back up directly after such.

Homing attack barely needs to switch targets but if it so has to, I'd preffer my switches be performed with a control stick instead of an actual button which was what I responded to, and I'd rather have a seperate button perform the lock-on instead of just holding a button and wait for it to pop up. If switching targets had to happen, having two different buttons to go between targets would be far more cumbersome than using just a simple control stick.

I don't mind the homing attack but if it'd have to be changed, I'd do it that way. At times it does feel too simple frankly. I admit it.

True that. And the last thing Sonic needs to have is a complicated moveset.

I don't see how holding an extra button just to make a homing attack is considered complicated.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Chernobyl-Tan

[Rusty Spy]

I don't see how holding an extra button just to make a homing attack is considered complicated.

It's not, but it could be a lot simpler, and simpler makes for a more enjoyable Sonic game.

[JezMM]

Yeah, it's true. *insert the oh-so-famous Sakurai quote here*

Adding an additional button push to the 3D homing attack would be like having to use the insta-shield to defeat every enemy in Sonic 3. Not annoying, but unnecessary.

The most important things to consider with a homing attack replacement/retooling is this:

-Is it utterly as simple as possible (or damn close) to use?

-Is it streamlined and keeps flow going?

And most important:

-If you add extra moves/features/possibilities to it, will the player really use them? Or would they just use whatever is most efficient every time (i.e., the standard homing attack anyway)?

[Carbo]

-If you add extra moves/features/possibilities to it, will the player really use them? Or would they just use whatever is most efficient every time (i.e., the standard homing attack anyway)?

Never talked about extra moves, so that felt a bit out of nowhere. Think you guys should reffer to the post I first made in this topic.

Making Sonic's 3D moveset more versatile is stupid, you're already dealing with the fastest thing alive, as if trying to adapt that into a 3D environment isnt proven to already be 70% forbidden science. Majority of all these extra moves that were ever added into a game were most highly useless (see Sonic 06, bar the dash gem which actually made things go less sluggish and more faster).

I never said I minded the way the homing attack is now but I'd most certainly welcome a lock-on feature with a seperate button. I don't know what Sakurai quote youre talking about now but if you're talking about the simplicity one, Unleashed really proves how the new games are different and how that barely applies. Light Dash with Y, Homing Attack and Air Dash with X (Don't get me started on how that was the worst pair-up ever done), Drifting with triggers, quick-steps, stomps etc.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Chernobyl-Tan

[Phos]

Unleashed proves Sakurai's quote, it's control scheme sucks.

Yeah, it's true. *insert the oh-so-famous Sakurai quote here*

Adding an additional button push to the 3D homing attack would be like having to use the insta-shield to defeat every enemy in Sonic 3. Not annoying, but unnecessary.

The most important things to consider with a homing attack replacement/retooling is this:

-Is it utterly as simple as possible (or damn close) to use?

-Is it streamlined and keeps flow going?

And most important:

-If you add extra moves/features/possibilities to it, will the player really use them? Or would they just use whatever is most efficient every time (i.e., the standard homing attack anyway)?

Remove the homing attack, restore mid air mobility, done.

[JezMM]

To be honest, I loved Unleashed's control system. Felt perfectly simple to me thanks to a total lack of context sensitive actions.

However, I will agree the homing attack and air boost match up was a terrible mistake. Though I do like the seperation of the homing attack from jump. It's a tricky-un.

In response to Phos' suggestion, that'd be cool, but if you overshoot, you'd lose all your speed in coming backwards again. Though I guess I can't really argue myself since I've always been supportive of the idea that "if you get good at the game, a speedy, fluid playthrough is your reward".

Chernobyl-tan, I apologise if I caused any confusion. I tend to reply to lots of opinions at once from my memory rather than specific people, unless of course, I actually quote or mention the person by name. If I ever say anything that doesn't apply to your arguement, that's probably why, lol.

[Kamicciolo]

In response to Phos' suggestion, that'd be cool, but if you overshoot, you'd lose all your speed in coming backwards again. Though I guess I can't really argue myself since I've always been supportive of the idea that "if you get good at the game, a speedy, fluid playthrough is your reward".

What are you talking about when you say overshoot? Because if it was enemy that you had overshot, why would you need to backtrack just to kill it when you could just keep going (unless it was a mission to kill a certain number of enemies).

[JezMM]

Yeah that's true. Though I didn't exactly mean backtracking. What I meant was, successfully bopping the enemy would mean no speed would be lost, but if you overshot (thus having to pull back on the control-stick mid-jump to land the hit), you'd lose that speed.

But yeah.

[SuperStingray]

Remove the homing attack, restore mid air mobility, done.

In 2D of course. In 3D, that would just make the gameplay twitchy. At least the homing attack gives a degree of forgiveness. Edited August 22, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Phos]

Considering that this would be removing abrupt changes in speed, I'm assuming that you're talking about mmissing them and having to jump back at them. It seems to me that the mid air mobility would avoid that.

[JezMM]

Now that I think about it, air mobility would work. I didn't figure the whole picture with my previous criticism.

Am I right, Phos, in thinking it'd work something like this?

(Obviously, blue blob is Sonic, and grey blob is a robot. Featuring special guest yellow blob as the explosion.)

When I criticised it before I didn't consider the possibility of the last panel... the fact that you could just bounce right back into the way you were going after the overshoot counter-turn.

Edited August 22, 2009 by JezMM

[SuperStingray]

Considering that this would be removing abrupt changes in speed, I'm assuming that you're talking about mmissing them and having to jump back at them. It seems to me that the mid air mobility would avoid that.

I still can't see it working in a 3D environment. If aerial movement is very mobile, it may be too hard to control. Even if it's right, every time a player encounters an enemy it would require more precise aiming than in the 2D games which I really think will end up breaking the flow drastically.

The problem there, though, is that this is a 2D demonstration. If it were done in 3D, it's easy to jump in the wrong direction AND overshoot and even if you were to correct yourself it may be easy to bounce off the wrong way should you be so slightly off. Not to mention that mobile enemies would be an issue.

I do understand where you're coming from though; the homing attack has become rather overpowered and spammable. If anything, it should be either nerfed like in Heroes (only a bit more so) or requires a charge like the light speed dash in Adventure.

But I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing because it's automated; frankly I feel that when done right, it can be immersive to let the environment take control occasionally; I've always loved those weird light tubes from the Death Egg Zone; oh and using SA2's ancient power on one of those Artificial Chaos that split up into a hundred pieces so that you go into a rampant shitstorm destroying each one of them in a blur of hilarious awesomeness. Hell, part of the reason I like the homing attack is that I just like bashing robots like aerial stepping stones. I'm not saying automation should be a common thing though; just to provide a scene change or cool effect. But the only time I can really say automation is a problem to me is when it seems like you SHOULD have more control like they script loops or make rails without challenges on them.

Edited August 22, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Tornado]

The problem there, though, is that this is a 2D demonstration. If it were done in 3D, it's easy to jump in the wrong direction AND overshoot and even if you were to correct yourself it may be easy to bounce off the wrong way.

That's why modern controllers have analog controls. Though I agree it might be too difficult to get used to, its not as if the concept of 3D aerial controls haven't been done well before.

But I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing because it's automated; frankly I feel that when done right, it can be immersive to let the environment take control occasionally

The homing attack isn't used occasionally.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Tornado

[JezMM]

Just to clarify, that diagram was my understanding of Phos' arguement only. I still love the homing attack and see no problems with it, lol.

[SuperStingray]

That's why modern controllers have analog controls. Though I agree it might be too difficult to get used to, its not as if the concept of 3D aerial controls haven't been done well before.

Yes, but the question is would it work with Sonic? Mario 64's wing cap or Starfox are one thing, but in basic 3D platforming, depth perception and camera controls are much more of an issue when dealing with a target.

The homing attack isn't used occasionally.

I wasn't really talking about the homing attack here, but I am saying that's how I want it to be: More sparing. Edited August 23, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Phos]

If it's small enough that you migh miss it in the air, you could just roll into it.

[SuperStingray]

If it's small enough that you migh miss it in the air, you could just roll into it.

Fine, but what if it's aerial or not the right size? Edited August 25, 2009 by SuperStingray

[azoo]

Do people really consider wanting to really hit a small robot in midair, anyways? Even in the Genesis games, I usually just evaded creatures such as the Buzzbombers. =P

[Rusty Spy]

If it's small enough that you migh miss it in the air, you could just roll into it.

Do people really consider wanting to really hit a small robot in midair, anyways? Even in the Genesis games, I usually just evaded creatures such as the Buzzbombers. =P

The thing is, it shouldn't be a hassle to hit an enemy one way or another. Players should be able to hit an enemy with whatever attack they can. And hitting an enemy while on the move should be as simple and easy as hitting one while at a stand still or when rolling.

[azoo]

Then I proclaim that every Sonic badnik should be about the size of the Crabmeats from those clips of Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing. =P

Seriously, if they could make them that big (and still look nearly the same) then that's fine by me.

[Rusty Spy]

Then I proclaim that every Sonic badnik should be about the size of the Crabmeats from those clips of Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing. =P

Seriously, if they could make them that big (and still look nearly the same) then that's fine by me.

But really, all it's doing is giving you a bigger target to hit, and it can be a lot simpler and easier to use for everyone.

[azoo]

..I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that you agree, or are you saying that could be done in an easier way than my idea? =P

Edited August 25, 2009 by Azukara

[Rusty Spy]

It could be a lot easier than your idea.

[azoo]

Please explain. I'm interested in how it could be done easier (does it by any chance relate to the H.A.?).