Character deterioration

[StaticMania]

People tend to overblow Knuckles' idiocy in games, so that's pretty bad.

Knuckles can't seem to do one "not smart" thing without being labelled an idiot by fans.

So, I don't think this has to do with deterioration.

[Osmium]

If we're going on about Knuckles, can I just say I can't stand him in the Mega Drive comics, particularly the second one? 

Like, really? 

I know Knuckles over the years has had the consistency of something...not very consistent, but I've always thought of him as not very bright but still generally quite peaceful and well-meaning really, so why did they find it necessary to make him into a jerk who thinks he's the most competent? It's now like a totally different sort of stupid, like it went from just slow but well-meaning to '90s meathead jock stereotype stupid. 

Some people may just pass this off as teasing but it seems out of character and kinda unlikable to me. 

[Dr. Mechano]

 

What I like about Knuckles' original characterization was that he kept trusting Eggman not because he was stupid, but because he was overly trusting and idealistic. One of his old profiles even says that Knuckles deeply believes in the goodness of others.

The idea wasn't that Knuckles was an idiot; It's that he really wanted to believe Eggman was a good guy. 

[Diogenes]

Okay but why does he greet Sonic with a fist to the jaw when he arrives on Angel Island, then.

And why does he do it again in SA, after Sonic had already proven his goodness and trustworthiness beyond Eggman's.

I'm all for Knuckles being a complex and nuanced character and his mistakes coming not just from stupidity but also from sympathetic and arguably positive traits...but I don't see any way to explain his actions that doesn't involve a sizable spoonful of stupid.

[StaticMania]

Knuckles being tricked by Eggman was the most consistently stupid thing about him.

[Almar]

We should remember Knuckles like other Sonic has been portrayed differently across the series. His Genesis appearences had him as a hyena, Adventure as gullible but dutiful as a foil to Sonic, Heroes to 06 as the strongman/Zoidberg of Team Sonic, and Forces as some mix of the Adventure and Heroes/X eras.

[Bowbowis]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Okay but why does he greet Sonic with a fist to the jaw when he arrives on Angel Island, then.

And why does he do it again in SA, after Sonic had already proven his goodness and trustworthiness beyond Eggman's.

I'm all for Knuckles being a complex and nuanced character and his mistakes coming not just from stupidity but also from sympathetic and arguably positive traits...but I don't see any way to explain his actions that doesn't involve a sizable spoonful of stupid.

In S3&K Knuckles didn't have any reason to trust Sonic over Eggman. Perhaps even less, considering that Eggman crashed on the island by chance several weeks before, whereas Sonic traveled there deliberately with all seven Chaos Emeralds in tow. Eggman would have had little trouble spinning the evidence to make it look like Sonic was after the Master Emerald too and he had plenty of time to gain Knuckles' trust through his actions (feeding Knuckles info on Sonic, building robots to "help" guard the island, etc.) before Sonic showed up.

As for SA1, it's been a while since I played through the story, but I seem to recall Knuckles expressing skepticism towards Eggman's claims until he saw Sonic with a Chaos Emerald which he mistook for an ME shard and attacked. The only reason it grew into a full on fight being that Sonic assumed Knuckles was telling him to hand over the Chaos Emeralds and decided to shoot his mouth off instead of trying to deescalate the situation. Essentially, a case of poor communication and jumping to conclusions by both parties, rather than Knuckles simply accepting what Eggman said out of hand.

Enough about Knuckles though. Anyone want to talk about what a colossal idiot Sonic is for trusting Shahra and Merlina, walking into Eggman's hostage for Emerald trap (twice), and falling for the Doctor's ploy at the start of Unleashed? No? Okay then.

[RedFox99]

9 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Enough about Knuckles though. Anyone want to talk about what a colossal idiot Sonic is for trusting Shahra and Merlina, walking into Eggman's hostage for Emerald trap (twice), and falling for the Doctor's ploy at the start of Unleashed? No? Okay then.

Ah touche. 

[Diogenes]

41 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

In S3&K Knuckles didn't have any reason to trust Sonic over Eggman.

But if we're talking about a Knuckles who believes there's good in everyone, why is his reaction not "well this Sonic guy sound sketchy but maybe he's cool and this is all a misunderstanding" but instead "I'm going to sucker punch this guy and then try to kill him several times because obviously he's bad".

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Perhaps even less, considering that Eggman crashed on the island by chance several weeks before, whereas Sonic traveled there deliberately with all seven Chaos Emeralds in tow.

Y'know what Eggman had in tow? A massive space station that nearly sunk the island, that Knuckles even connects to a legend about a dragon's egg that's supposed to bring ruin to the island. But he trusts him anyway.

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As for SA1, it's been a while since I played through the story, but I seem to recall Knuckles expressing skepticism towards Eggman's claims until he saw Sonic with a Chaos Emerald which he mistook for an ME shard and attacked. The only reason it grew into a full on fight being that Sonic assumed Knuckles was telling him to hand over the Chaos Emeralds and decided to shoot his mouth off instead of trying to deescalate the situation. Essentially, a case of poor communication and jumping to conclusions by both parties, rather than Knuckles simply accepting what Eggman said out of hand.

He was skeptical, yes, but instead of actually trying to verify what Eggman had claimed, he decided the best thing to do was immediately start throwing punches and demand whatever emeralds Sonic had while knowing there are more emeralds out there than just the Master Emerald shards. It's not Sonic's job to baby Knuckles and try to lead him to explain what the fuck he actually means especially after the idiot went and attacked him out of the blue.

Note that he was fully capable of simply approaching Eggman and demanding the Master Emerald shards specifically. He gave more leeway to the guy who stole the Master Emerald once before than to the guy who returned it to him. Also note that he trusted Eggman at all given the events of 3&K and that Eggman was controlling the monster that broke the Master Emerald.

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Enough about Knuckles though. Anyone want to talk about what a colossal idiot Sonic is for trusting Shahra and Merlina, walking into Eggman's hostage for Emerald trap (twice), and falling for the Doctor's ploy at the start of Unleashed? No? Okay then.

Most of these weren't stupid actions at all. Simply being tricked or falling into a trap doesn't mean a person is stupid. Attacking a known ally because a known villain said he's bad means they're stupid.

God I am so tired of this. I don't think I'll ever understand why people keep twisting themselves, this series' stories, and the character himself into such knots rather than just admit that he has a flaw. It doesn't mean you can't like him, it doesn't mean he isn't a good character.

e: y'know what? This is some fuckin' character deterioration. Can't even acknowledge the character's actual fuckin' traits because they don't match the image y'all have built up of him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm pretty sure people consider his gullibility a flaw. They just don't consider Knuckles an out-right idiot to auch a degree given that there was context made for him to be tricked the first two times.

Except him getting tricked in Sonic Advance 2. That literally had no explanation whatsoever.

[LongcrierCat]

See, I feel that Knuckles being tricked in Sonic 3 and Knuckles had always made sense and makes even more sense the more you think about it. 

Knuckles is a secluded person left on his own and is socially closed off. He doesn't really know anyone and he's the last of the descendants of his tribe. Sometimes he meets guys like the Chaotix though for chronological standards we'll say he met them after being introduced to the outside world. So he has only what his people taught him and lives off the land and protects the Emeralds as the Guardian. He is the last to know his people's legends and is socially inept though that isn't his fault. 

So let's look at the manual from Japan. 

"Emerging out of the sacred chamber in a daze, Knuckles was unsure of his next course of action, glancing out at the horizon. It was then that he saw it, a strange, almost egg-shaped object embedded into the landscape. Snapping back to reality, Knuckles wondered if this object was connected to an ancient legend that rushed to the forefront of his mind, the egg of the legendary dragon...

Over the next few days, Knuckles explored the rest of the isle assessing any damage as he went to the other six [wait, six? Did someone forget to tell the manual writer that there were seven?] Chaos Emerald altars, finding each in the same state as the first. Refusing to give up, the guardian continued to investigate, knowing that the answer to what had just happened must be somewhere on his island. It was during this process that he came across a strange, egg-shaped man wandering about the atoll. Confronting him, the man merely smiled, and calmly explained that he was a scientist who had come across the island to study the strange egg that had appeared. Making sure to fully trick the guardian, Eggman continued, telling the echidna that he also knew of the emeralds that were on the island, and that a blue hedgehog by the name of Sonic was the one looking for them. Shocked, Knuckles ran off, the mad genius smiling at his own skillful lie."

It's simple but in the way that the Grinch fools Cindy Lou Who into thinking he's actually Santa Claus. Technically, the Doctor is still telling a half truth. He's a scientist and is studying the "Dragon Egg" and Sonic would eventually look for the Emeralds anyways. And in spite of the Doctor's intentions, have you looked at him? He looks like Teddy Roosevelt. He looks to be the most trustful man and is probably pretty good at playing diplomacy into his hand to use as to manipulate people. It never goes into full context but given the context and how Knuckles reacted he mustn't have implied any good in Sonic. It plays into the narrative that the Villain is just the Hero in their own story. But that's getting into reading your own context into the story. Though, Knuckles proved to be a hell of a tactical fighter and was ahead of Sonic a lot of the time to head him off on top of being a trickster and hiding secrets since he knew this place inside and out. It is his home after all and he is protecting himself and fulfilling his duty of guarding the emeralds. The reason he fails the fight in Hidden Palace is because it's been a very bad day where the invaders actually have got through all of his defenses and he's probably exhausted now. Then the incident of the Emerald theft happens and he learns immediately it was a ruse and Eggman was the real bad guy. 

But thing is is that Knuckles had a reason for being socially inept. 

... then Sonic Adventure happened and while they tried to tie things like Knuckles's Tribe into the story, there were still retcons that make it hard to say if this is the same Knuckles we knew in Sonic 3 or if this is a new updated take. Then there's the localized script that interpreted this to be a follow up, which to be fair there's callbacks that make it hard not to see it that way in spite of inconsistencies, and here's where we get to "Knuckles sees the good in people" to "Knuckles is gullible and easy to manipulate". 

Think of it this way. Idealistic people can know of the sliding scale of morality but he had the development of a child due to isolation. Due to this he tends to see moral situations in black and white. But this is also Sonic and in Sega's eye, their brand of merchandise and here's where it falls apart. 

Knuckles's first appearance was a great foundation for a great character. 

But branding says that you need a status quo. Thus, we have gullible Knuckles who is easily tricked or easily antagonistic to even his friends because he was antagonistic in his first appearance. Now consistency isn't a bad thing here, but all the same? I'm not a huge fan of status quo unless it works. For a while it worked to have Knuckles be somewhat gullible. He's a character out of his element when he isn't on Angel Island. But it doesn't seem like they're interested in him exploring the world and learning but being gullible and antagonistic towards being arrogant. If only they remembered his better traits alongside this more often. 

Also, Amy used to be cute when she would chase Sonic. Then again, she also was once a really young fangirl around the age of 8 who was naive and looked up to Sonic a ton. You'd think she'd have an idea of how Sonic is but then confronted by him as a character either be repulsed by his 90s attitude of "ew, girls have cooties" (the more I think about this in hindsight the more I hate this dynamic, it always sucked and they should have moved on from it instead of holding onto it as long as possible) or grow to admire how he's very friendly with people and likes to play around and be fun (and not be a jerkass, Sonic the Comic, that's not Sonic). Then they made her older in Adventure and while she worked there, she had had no reason to be in Sonic Adventure 2 (other than to be damseled in a moment that gave Robotnik a threatening moment) and then Sonic Heroes made her... crazed and obsessed and while there's a way to point to Sonic being her own Beatle Mania, these days it's... tasteless and tacky because it always was? Eh. But for the most part, that was her character. It was she loves Sonic the Icon, not Sonic the Person. Whatever personality beyond that didn't matter to Sega/Sonic Team even in her story in Adventure helped to make her compassionate and pick up Sonic's positive trait about caring and helping people out. 

But again, branding. Do we want a story or do we want a product? 

And more importantly, due to Sonic being a videogame series, how do you tie this to the gameplay? Is this a character driven RPG now? Or are we using thematics of the story to also colour the levels we play through as the story progresses? Because it's easy to just throw the story out and leave the game. But that's not very memorable is it?

Wasn't it that status quo that made people tire of Mario and then Sonic was a major breath of fresh air as both a game and as a story with character? With Mario, I knew what it was. With Sonic you didn't know and at a point that was exciting once until the trends were out of Sonic's favour. So now? It's time to solidify exactly what Sonic and his universe of friends actually is and their rules. 

It would be around here that I'll say don't want a reboot or soft one, but a re-prioritization of what the common rules of the Sonic Universe are. Chaos Emeralds hold power and people fight over them. And maybe if the characters haven't changed at all, it's best to go back to the popular versions people know then grow off of that into something that works. Knuckles was a loner for a long time but yearns to be with people and learn to communicate but is duty driven. Sonic has always has been around people and may like it but wants some time to himself and is a free spirit that takes to adventure with a drive for freedom and doing what he wants. Tails is smart but lacks confidence in his abilities until he proves it to himself that he can totally be his own boy (like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 had since he was a great highlight of those games). Amy is an excitable person who is always getting into things and can get swept into trends until she grows up but holds onto the compassion and drive (and please let her have something like being into fashion and changing that outfit and hammer a bit more, some hobby like Sonic Boom tried). Dr. Ivo Eggman Robotnik plays the situations to his advantage because he's an insufferably self aggrandizing and eccentric narcissist who believes he has the world's answers for peace and order (by way of hilariously utilizing the powers of MacGuffins that are the Chaos Theory in hyperdrive should they show anything about how they relate to the planet Sonic lives on (And for me it's always going to be some iteration of a future earth or human colonized planet that resembled Earth named Mobius)). Also, let Robotnik be smart and sociable but keep his manchild tendencies even if he can devolve/evolve into something more past that with the right push of a moral event horizon. I'd talk about more characters if anyone is interested but a lot of my ideas tend to lean into what already happened with Ian Flynn's run of Sonic the Hedgehog (and what I hope will be to come yet). 

Boy I hope that wasn't a mess of ideas. Anyways, I'm more interested in fixing the characters (and Sonic Universe) by going back to what worked and then building off that than getting into a debate about why Knuckles was always an idiot. I'm more annoyed that kids are getting the hand me downs than their own version of the thing I like. 

[E-122-Psi]

I think the recurring problem is that some of the characters have a recurring flaw/quirk, but rather than develop and round it, they just utilise over and over to the point of Flanderization as a running gag as a writer's method of going 'Hey, remember, these guys have a personality'.

Knuckles is gullible true, and don't ever forget that Sonic is reckless and Amy has an obsessive temper, and as of recently Tails is single minded with inventions. They sure won't let you anyway.

In fairness, they're lucky they have even that at times. At least they have a defining vice. Some characters struggle with even that (as mentioned Sally got so flatly positive and down-to-earth in the comics that the best they could think of for her was lousy cooking).

[StaticMania]

Knuckles' gullibility hasn't really been a thing for a wiggle now, he hasn't had much of a defining trait in the past 3 games. Which is fine.

Amy's temper pretty much stopped being a thing too, outside of lasting from Heroes to Riders...the last it was even mentioned was the end of Black Knight.

[E-122-Psi]

41 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Knuckles' gullibility hasn't really been a thing for a wiggle now, he hasn't had much of a defining trait in the past 3 games. Which is fine.

Amy's temper pretty much stopped being a thing too, outside of lasting from Heroes to Riders...the last it was even mentioned was the end of Black Knight.

The problem however is what have they replaced it with? Sure they're not running gags now, but are they anything else?

[RedFox99]

15 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

The problem however is what have they replaced it with? Sure they're not running gags now, but are they anything else?

What do you would be good ways to show they'd quirks without flanderizing them?

[StaticMania]

21 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

The problem however is what have they replaced it with? Sure they're not running gags now, but are they anything else?

Amy's more "the heart" again, but it's kinda overshadowed by not being useful to the story.

Knuckles is something, but I don't know what else he had outside of being hot headed and overconfident. That's not really being used.

[Osmium]

At this point Knuckles has nothing going for him.

Perfect point to make him like StC Knuckles and just be fucking done with it, at least that was a cool Knuckles. 

[RedFox99]

I think Tails, Amy, and Knuckles are the prime examples of character derailment for the cast. Most others aren't given enough screen time (like the latter two).

Speaking of which, I hope we get to see Cream in a vital role again since the last time that happened was in Advance 3.

[Osmium]

12 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Okay but why does he greet Sonic with a fist to the jaw when he arrives on Angel Island, then.

And why does he do it again in SA, after Sonic had already proven his goodness and trustworthiness beyond Eggman's.

I'm all for Knuckles being a complex and nuanced character and his mistakes coming not just from stupidity but also from sympathetic and arguably positive traits...but I don't see any way to explain his actions that doesn't involve a sizable spoonful of stupid.

I don't know if this is directed at me only but I'll address this now. When I say "generally peaceful" I mean in that he's this way like 99% of the time, he isn't really a bully or a jock. He definitely throws out punches because that's how he thinks problems get solved. I think he's well-meaning overall but he's a dumbfuck and will obliterate anything that violates his notion of "right" because that's what makes sense to him. 

Don't think I don't think he's really stupid. I'm just not a fan of the overconfident '90s sitcom jock stereotype type stupid as that isn't Knuckles. 

[Wraith]

13 hours ago, ShroomZed said:

If we're going on about Knuckles, can I just say I can't stand him in the Mega Drive comics, particularly the second one? 

Like, really? 

I know Knuckles over the years has had the consistency of something...not very consistent, but I've always thought of him as not very bright but still generally quite peaceful and well-meaning really, so why did they find it necessary to make him into a jerk who thinks he's the most competent? It's now like a totally different sort of stupid, like it went from just slow but well-meaning to '90s meathead jock stereotype stupid. 

Some people may just pass this off as teasing but it seems out of character and kinda unlikable to me. 

I don't think a Knuckles who has kind of gotten to know these guys would be above this personally. You're "looser" around your friends after all. Sometimes you joke a little too hard. It happens. Sonic and Knuckles do fuck with eachother an equal amount in this comic too so it didn't bother me and I actually thought it was refreshing. 

Most strife from Knuckles comes from him thinking he's right and finding out that's not the case the hard way so he does have a bit of an ego too.These are all fine character traits to have. If you think it makes Knuckles kind of a jerk sometimes, that's good because that's what they're going for most of the time. He makes up for it by doing the right thing at the end of the day. He still comes through and helps out because he's a good guy at the end of the day. He cares about the world and his friends. He's just hard to cooperate with sometimes and that's okay.
 

[StaticMania]

If we saw the characters actually interacting as much as they work together, I could see Knuckles acting like that. I mean in a few of his appearances he pretty much acts like he's got real chops above Sonic anyway, so that really doesn't seem OOC.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

15 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Okay but why does he greet Sonic with a fist to the jaw when he arrives on Angel Island, then.

And why does he do it again in SA, after Sonic had already proven his goodness and trustworthiness beyond Eggman's.

I'm all for Knuckles being a complex and nuanced character and his mistakes coming not just from stupidity but also from sympathetic and arguably positive traits...but I don't see any way to explain his actions that doesn't involve a sizable spoonful of stupid.

The only way I can think of that could resolve the contradictions is that Knuckles is characterized as being someone who is slow to trust and very guarded and paranoid. He's being (in his eyes) besieged by two different threats at once in Sonic 3, and while Eggman could certainly spin things into making himself seem like the good guy, Knuckles wouldn't entirely believe him, instead seeing Eggman as the lesser of two evils compared to the Super powered Sonic, and planned to deal with Eggman once he was sure Sonic was neutralized as a threat, which didn't really happen that way.

Also in SA1, it's possible that while he did trust Sonic more than he did before, he still feels a need to check on anything related to his duty and his actions were more erring on the side of caution rather than Eggman successfully deceiving him, and the only dumb moment was when he mistook the Chaos Emerald for the Master Emerald shards (although you could chalk it up to the emeralds being hard to see from his vantage point) and acted on impulse.

That being said, despite being slow to trust, if you do have his trust, he'd end up revealing that despite his attempts to portray himself as a warrior monk-esque character, he's actually rather naive about many things outside of the island (this could be misinterpreted as stupidity to those who don't know his background, something that would be further enhanced by Sonic's "Knucklehead" nickname) and he's a bit of a hothead and impulsive at times, or when people who know how to irritate him enough can trigger his temper pretty easily.

If all of these elements were pulled together, you'd have a pretty decently nuanced (for Sonic) character while not utterly contradicting the majority of his appearances prior to his current character deterioration.

[RushFan4Ever]

A lot of the characters have deteriorated (I'm lookin' at you Knux), but the most glaring to me is Sonic himself. I feel that in recent games he's lost a lot of his heart in favor of making him 'cooler' or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I like some snark in my Sonic, his attitude was always part of his character, and if you don't have it then he ends up coming across as really bland, like in '06. But I feel like the newer games have gone too far in the other direction and removed a lot of his pathos that made him a really admirable hero. This is why I love the Storybook games writing so much - they managed to balance his character perfectly.

[Dash Speed]

The way I see Knuckles is someone who Sonic needs to validate being more reckless, narrowminded and self serving than he is(all he does is look after a rock because it's his self given job and it belongs to his ancestors not because the world is counting on him to guard it). Knuckles always(pre heroes) is kept in the dark regarding anything dangerous to the world except his own ME and island, so he is encouraged to act as a determent to the heroes in common sense about things that are a threat to him and everyone else due to being the hothead of the group and jumping to conclusions outside his own knowledge. Knuckles and Sonic like the rest of team Sonic have to act as foils, and all I see is Sonic making Knuckles see errors his stubborn, face value, and unconfirmed ways of tackling issues. It takes place as Knuckles flaws and acts of shortcomings because it makes Sonic a sensible hero instead of the brash and cocky freedom action junkie we all love him for. And Knuckles being the serious and down to earth one makes no sense since his first apparence haves him laugh when you punches you out of the emeralds, Knuckles is a jolly fellow with a rough and boisterous conviction to stand his ground affirming his strong will and power, it's kinda why their foils and friendly rivals Sonic is the wind(varying and free yet calm) Knuckles is the earth and fire(inflexible and hard, yet bursting with passion). Knuckles is just as expressive as Sonic, but in a sense no tied to the world but his own pace, and thats why he's called out as stupid because his stubborn and guiable flaw to change things up like Sonic , Tails and Amy do makes him believe anytrhing that makes sense to him. He's just a jock headed muscle head with a heart of gold and strives for self improvement with goals he grows with like guarding the master emerald being a world wise treasure hunter and other stuff.

We need to stop forgetting, this is really about Sonic first and everyone second. The interactions he has with other characters are based on how he improves as a character and develop around him, which means Knuckles plays the patsy or the rough friend that seperates him from Sonic on a narrative point about Sonic the Hedgehog. He's always gonna be Sonic's friend/rival, like Shadow is gonna be Sonic's arch rival/ally, like tails is gonna be Sonic's best friend/tech guy/duertagonist, like Eggman is gonna be Sonic's main enemy/duertagonist, etc.

 

 

[DabigRG]

I think part the issue with Knuckles is that, in addition to being inherently tied by design through his motivation, there are so many other characters in the series who fulfill his various  roles now:

• Shadow is Sonic's arch rival now, in addition to being the dark and brooding anti-hero. 
• Blaze is also a stoic former loner with a heritage and job as a Guardian that keeps her even more tied down for completely justified reasons, in addition to being a a distaff counterpart to Sonic that's a Pyrokinetic Princess from another dimension.
• Jet is Sonic's rival in the truest sense--a [formerly?] arrogant loudmouth challenging him for the title of Fasting Thing Alive, plus a similar backstory involving an ancient civilization with a floating island--From Space! It's also worth noting that he has the assistance of Knuckles's rival Storm the Albatross, who's simultaneously the most likable of the Rogues and the flattest of them, a testament to Knuckles's importance.
• Silver, while not having the defined backstory, dynamic, or perhaps even the notoriety that most of these characters have, is generally remembered as being a naive and occasionally brusque kid from the future who gets involved on occasion.

All Knuckles really has left is his gameplay based persona as a chuckling jock who can break through walls.

Honestly, where did the notion Knuckles being Sonic's Rival come from anyway?