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Character deterioration


Whatever the WhoCares

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15 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I think part the issue with Knuckles is that, in addition to being inherently tied by design through his motivation, there are so many other characters in the series who fulfill his various  roles now:

  • Shadow is Sonic's arch rival now, in addition to being the dark and brooding anti-hero. 
  • Blaze is also a stoic former loner with a heritage and job as a Guardian that keeps her even more tied down for completely justified reasons, in addition to being a a distaff counterpart to Sonic that's a Pyrokinetic Princess from another dimension.
  • Jet is Sonic's rival in the truest sense--a [formerly?] arrogant loudmouth challenging him for the title of Fasting Thing Alive, plus a similar backstory involving an ancient civilization with a floating island--From Space! It's also worth noting that he has the assistance of Knuckles's rival Storm the Albatross, who's simultaneously the most likable of the Rogues and the flattest of them, a testament to Knuckles's importance.
  • Silver, while not having the defined backstory, dynamic, or perhaps even the notoriety that most of these characters have, is generally remembered as being a naive and occasionally brusque kid from the future who gets involved on occasion.

All Knuckles really has left is his gameplay based persona as a chuckling jock who can break through walls.

Honestly, where did the notion Knuckles being Sonic's Rival come from anyway?

Possibly the comics, the games never hinted Rival like status till the Sonic Adventure games. Then Shadow came and made him Sonic's dark equal and rival to his speed.

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I would say it's from being the first anthro character presented as both an enemy of and comparable in skill to Sonic. Others before Shadow showed up were a robot and Wile E. Coyote but purple/without the coyote. The Western comics played this up too with how he's called Sonic's "friendly nemesis."

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There's nothing wrong with Sonic having more than one rival. It only makes sense that as one Rival's story concludes Sonic finds other rivals to deal with. Their stories concluded too.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Honestly, where did the notion Knuckles being Sonic's Rival come from anyway?

It's an angle, dude bro. They've been pushing this since Sonic 3. It's why he's in Triple Trouble and Pocket Adventure, as well as being the only reason he has a special theme for fighting Sonic in Fighters.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Josh said:

There's nothing wrong with Sonic having more than one rival. It only makes sense that as one Rival's story concludes Sonic finds other rivals to deal with. Their stories concluded too.

The thing is , sonic only has one rival, well two. Jet and Metal sonic. 

Shadow isn't really his rival anymore, sega boast's it as something that's true. But even in sa2, shadow's objectives were sonic irrelevant he didn't really care about sonic, untill sonic kept not dying. And then shadow lost his memory again, and then shadow cared less. And and now shadow has a job and shit to do , and cares less.

Knuckles also has a job and shit to do. 

Blaze, job and shit to do . 

All sonic's rival's were never interested in sonic in any degree, besides possible romance from blaze. They had their own shit going on, and when it got straited out, that was kind of it. Jet's rivalry is pretty real because its just that a rivalry, jet was to be fastest sonic claims he's fastest. And metal sonic has a vendetta against sonic. So sonic could use more rivals, but he's rivals actually number few

Sonic has a lot of " people I met under a misunderstanding but we are cool now but we don't really hang out"'s

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

The thing is , sonic only has one rival, well two. Jet and Metal sonic. 

Shadow isn't really his rival anymore, sega boast's it as something that's true. But even in sa2, shadow's objectives were sonic irrelevant he didn't really care about sonic, untill sonic kept not dying. And then shadow lost his memory again, and then shadow cared less. And and now shadow has a job and shit to do , and cares less.

Knuckles also has a job and shit to do. 

Blaze, job and shit to do . 

All sonic's rival's were never interested in sonic in any degree, besides possible romance from blaze. They had their own shit going on, and when it got straited out, that was kind of it. Jet's rivalry is pretty real because its just that a rivalry, jet was to be fastest sonic claims he's fastest. And metal sonic has a vendetta against sonic. So sonic could use more rivals, but he's rivals actually number few

Sonic has a lot of " people I met under a misunderstanding but we are cool now but we don't really hang out"'s

Shadow is the only one who can rival Sonic's speed at full power and fight on his level equally, thats how Shadow's rivalry with Sonic is relevant. Shadow cares about being stronger/faster than Sonic in Sonic Colors DS, Sonic Free riders, Sonic Generations and the Boom series. Thats how hes the rival. 

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Just now, Dash Speed said:

Shadow is the only one who can rival Sonic's speed and fight on his level equally, thats how Shadow's rivalry with Sonic is relevant. Shadow cares about being stronger than Sonic in Sonic Colors DS, Sonic Generations and the Boom series. Thats how hes the rival.

From my understanding color's DS isn't canon, and is just a side thing. Boom is a completely different version of shadow. And in generations you fight a time displaced one from sonic adventure 2. 

Also shadow, doesn't rival sonic's speed. Shadow is strait up faster than sonic. That's why his rivalry with sonic doesn't make sense and is underplayed. Shadow can literally teleport and stop time both abilities in hypothetical terms are faster than the concept of speed. Like if he and sonic raced to somewhere, and shadow knew where it was, he could just teleport. Bam, race over. Sonic asks for a race with shadow in his game for old times's sake. And Shadow jokes about it 06. But for the most part its not relevant. You notice after a certain point they just stopped having them race? That's why

I mean they could just reboot jet, to be fast on his feet normally. Then he would fit the bill, he doesn't really have much of a job. He's not an alien with super powers, or a princess with super powers, or an ancient guardian with super powers. 

He would be a dude, who is canonically a thief, so he could be a bad guy sonic occasionally runs into and just wants to race or has to race to beat. Because all of sonic's other rivals have other shit to do ad I would much rather see them go on their own adventures and do other shit. 

Sonic forces is a pretty accurate depiction of shadow. He's a guy doing his own thing someplace else, and being a good guy. He doesn't even quip when he saves sonic, he has better shit to do. He's a guy about his business and his business hasn't been sonic since...sa2 really

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

From my understanding color's DS isn't canon, and is just a side thing. Boom is a completely different version of shadow. And in generations you fight a time displaced one from sonic adventure 2. 

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Cannon or non cannon, Shadow is used to showcase Sonic's strength since he's the figurehead of power levels in the Sonic franchise. Sonic and Shadow are equals and rivals because Shadow is that strong and impressive

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Also shadow, doesn't rival sonic's speed. Shadow is strait up faster than sonic. That's why his rivalry with sonic doesn't make sense and is underplayed.

No it makes total sense, Shadow's a powerhouse in both verse and plot wise the heroes equal in abilites, Sonic beating him or having the abilites to stand a chance make Sonic look more impressive because Shadow is his only match. Shadow plays up Sonic's speed and his own game breaking abilites to showcase Sonic's power outside of villain fights, and it also shows Shadow can mimic Sonic's feats making them both as equally on par with each other.

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Shadow can literally teleport and stop time both abilities in hypothetical terms are faster than the concept of speed. Like if he and sonic raced to somewhere, and shadow knew where it was, he could just teleport. Bam, race over. Sonic asks for a race with shadow in his game for old times's sake. And Shadow jokes about it 06. But for the most part its not relevant. You notice after a certain point they just stopped having them race? That's why

Like it or not, Shadow has a sense of pride and honor via anime rival logic, Shadow always looks forward to competing against Sonic and testing his skills against Sonic's, Shadow's after 06 pretty much fits as the dark anti hero who tests Sonic and rivals his power since his story is over. Assisting Sonic without challenging him to a race/fight is pretty much a given in highly serious plot involving world ending, but in non serious games like free riders and generations, he expresses interest in besting Sonic which is still fine. It's not like Sonic and him fight to the death when they clash blows/race, it's fun/sport for them. 

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I mean they could just reboot jet, to be fast on his feet normally. Then he would fit the bill, he doesn't really have much of a job. He's not an alien with super powers, or a princess with super powers, or an ancient guardian with super powers. 

No, because thats not how Jet is. He's only fast on a board and thats that. Shadow is Sonic's natural superspeed rival. 

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He would be a dude, who is canonically a thief, so he could be a bad guy sonic occasionally runs into and just wants to race or has to race to beat. Because all of sonic's other rivals have other shit to do ad I would much rather see them go on their own adventures and do other shit. 

No, because thats not his role. Rival of Sonic on boards is not the same as Rival of Sonic in everything he is based on. Speed, Fighting, Ego, and good looks which Boom describes Shadow.

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Sonic forces is a pretty accurate depiction of shadow. He's a guy doing his own thing someplace else, and being a good guy. He doesn't even quip when he saves sonic, he has better shit to do. He's a guy about his business and his business hasn't been sonic since...sa2 really

That doesn't make Shadow useless to Sonic, it just means Shadow's rivalry with Sonic is not a big issue this game since solo Sonic had the two of them work to stop a war that was more important than petty rivalry. Sonic hasn't even sparked Knuckles butthurt tendecies and mocked his Knuckleheaded friend even once which is pretty much as much as staple as Sonic and Shadow getting into a scrap for sport.

Shadow and Sonic are still not best friends and Shadow in Sonic's plot is always making sure Sonic is somehow on his best or wants to test his speed.

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4 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow and Sonic are still not best friends and Shadow in Sonic's plot is always making sure Sonic is somehow on his best or wants to test his speed.

They don't have to be best friends. They have other things to do. 

Also...no. If he helps sonic out, to save him he'll do that. But he'll help save...anyone. The beginning of his story in forces was trying to help omega, his job is often times to help save people .Or to do stuff that will result in less lives lost, so yeah. Shadow and sonic got better shit to do man, let them live their lives. 

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11 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

From my understanding color's DS isn't canon, and is just a side thing.

Colours DS doesn't have to be canon for the character interactions to be canon-faithful.

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2 hours ago, FFWF said:

Colours DS doesn't have to be canon for the character interactions to be canon-faithful.

That's fair. I don't really think it was that either. 

I think those characters have been missing since sonic 06 or the rivals games ( your mileage my vary ) is the first conical interpretation of these characters in years and that game has not and will not influence anything as far as interpretation is concerned. A lot of people don't even know that game happened, its very much a side thing that doesn't matter. 

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12 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

From my interpretation those characters have basically been missing until forces and forces is the first thing they have tried to promote as ' canon" in terms of these characters personality and lack their off. This is the big product that they have chosen to put out to the world , that's the representation that they have chosen. So I don't think colors DS means anything besides " i guess we can  make extra money I guess" 

And even then I can't say that they did a perfect job with the characters in Forces.

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1 minute ago, RedFox99 said:

And even then I can't say that they didn't a perfect job with the characters in Forces.

Oh no its a fuck up. Heck you can probably describe forces as " I guess we can make extra money I guess" , but yeah forces and its tie ins are what they chosen to present these characters as. As much as I believe pre cancellation knuckles is what knuckles is, forces says he's a dumbass that calls himself leader does nothing really and gets 80% of his troops killed. Tails is a coward, shadow went on vacation during the story. Sonic has a knack for surviving torture and all 2 of the girls that were around did nothing really. And one of them either didn't care about her friends enough to investigate why one was evil, and didn't bothering retrieving her other friends robotic body. And didn't say anything to him once the other thought to be evil friend returned. Obviously, she is friends with both of those characters and didn't show a complete uncaring contempt for her friends that is almost horrifying. 

 

This is what they chose to show to people as far as characterization is concerned. And its largely terrible, when I say I think forces is the first " canonical " interpretation of these characters in years. That was not a compliment.  

And don't even get me started on infinite 

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@Shadowlax To be fair, Rouge did tell the others that Sonic was alive and she didn't appear until the very end so her lack of presence is to blame as well for her seemingly not caring, but I see what you mean when she did nothing involving investigating Shadow and Omega. 

Amy didn't do anything noteworthy aside from fighting in the end. 

I really hope that they ditch these characterizations in future games because it didn't seem like a step up from recent games.

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11 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

@Shadowlax To be fair, Rouge didn't appear until the very end so her lack of presence is to blame as well, but I see what you mean when she did nothing involving investigating Shadow and Omega. 

I really hope that they ditch these characterizations in future games.

Oh i really agree. Sorry if I sounded snobbish or offended anyone my suggestion of it not mattering wasn't really some reverence for the canon, it was kinda cynical. The sonic forces characterizations are incomplete and not good.

To response though, she did't even say anything. Also that plot hole where either she knew everyone was a VR trooper and didn't say anything, or didn't know and didn't bother investigating her friends. 

I hope if they bothering telling stories about forces in the IDW comics they address that

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12 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Oh i really agree. Sorry if I sounded snobbish or offended anyone my suggestion of it not mattering wasn't outside some reverence for the canon, it was kinda cynical. The sonic forces characterizations are incomplete and not good.

To response though, she did't even say anything. Also that plot hole where either she knew everyone was a VR trooper and didn't say anything, or didn't know and didn't bother investigating her friends. 

I hope if they bothering telling stories about forces in the IDW comics they address that

It's alright man, but yeah most of the other characters felt pretty flat and underwhelming.

Yeah that's what I don't get. It seemed that she either just withheld important information or just didn't try to find out anything which is not that good.

I would imagine they would fix it by having her actually do more stuff.

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17 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

They don't have to be best friends. They have other things to do. 

Also...no. If he helps sonic out, to save him he'll do that. But he'll help save...anyone. The beginning of his story in forces was trying to help omega, his job is often times to help save people .Or to do stuff that will result in less lives lost, so yeah. Shadow and sonic got better shit to do man, let them live their lives. 

Shadow won't save anyone, by that logic he'll save the doctor when it's apparent he hates his guts, Shadow is supremely underdeveloped in Forces like everyone else, but nothing says he helps anyone like Sonic does out of kindness, if he helps Sonic it's because their rivals that respect each other to save, anyone else is just in the way of him fighting something. Shadow like Sonic is always doing whats relevant to his interest, he doesn't have a career like Rouge does. Don't substitute comic cannon for game cannon.

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8 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow won't save anyone,

he literally saves sonic in forces and is going to get omega to save him in forces

8 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

by that logic he'll save the doctor when it's apparent he hates his guts,

he's done so yes.

8 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow is supremely underdeveloped in Forces like everyone else, but nothing says he helps anyone like Sonic does out of kindness,

he literally saves sonic and helps save the world because he wants to and thats his goal is to help people

8 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

if he helps Sonic it's because their rivals that respect each other to save, anyone else is just in the way of him fighting something.

*points directly at sonic forces, sonic 06, shadow the hedgehog, sonic battle , and sonic adventure 2*

You mean all those times where saved people because he wanted to and because he felt like its the right thing to do. And literally says at some point that even if people hated him, he would do the right thing because its the right thing to do doesn't count?

No that's not how this works, if you wanna argue the character you have to argue its characterization presented. Not a fanfiction you made in your head

13 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

 Shadow like Sonic is always doing whats relevant to his interest, he doesn't have a career like Rouge does. Don't substitute comic cannon for game cannon.

Shadow works for gun, the details of that employment remain obfuscated. But he works for gun. And considering its a thing he does on a regular bases, whether is GUN employee or Mercenary half alien we call in because where incompetent that's still a career that he's doing. Its also relevant to shadow's interest

You seem to want to write a sonic fanfiction where shadow is literally vegeta,  you can go write your sonic boom fanfiction. That's fine, but when arguing actual characterization you can't actually use that.

 

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Eh, I wouldn't say Shadow "hates the Doctor's guts." A surprising amount of their talks in canon (we think) games are cordial on Shadow's end at least (Heroes, Shadow, Rivals). Even in 06 Eggman doesn't seem bothered to see Shadow burst into his house.

Also, has Shadow working for GUN ever come up outside of 06 in the games?

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8 minutes ago, Almar said:

Eh, I wouldn't say Shadow "hates the Doctor's guts." A surprising amount of their talks in canon (we think) games are cordial on Shadow's end at least (Heroes, Shadow, Rivals). Even in 06 Eggman doesn't seem bothered to see Shadow burst into his house.

Also, has Shadow working for GUN ever come up outside of 06 in the games?

No, not really, but then again not many elements (with some exceptions) have been brought up from 06. 

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On 03/12/2017 at 2:43 PM, Almar said:

Eh, I wouldn't say Shadow "hates the Doctor's guts." A surprising amount of their talks in canon (we think) games are cordial on Shadow's end at least (Heroes, Shadow, Rivals). Even in 06 Eggman doesn't seem bothered to see Shadow burst into his house.

Also, has Shadow working for GUN ever come up outside of 06 in the games?

Eggman's his nephew, of course Shadow's cool with him

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That's not really much of an option in terms of making a full world...if a character is or isn't gonna be in a game, it should always be within reasoning and not whether they're useful to the plot.

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