Character deterioration

[Skull Leader]

1 hour ago, BaronGrackle said:

Using only Sonic Heroes for reference, tell me a little about Amy. Her interests, her motivations, her fears. Try it without using the word "Sonic".

EDIT: I originally meant this as a joke, but yes you can pull characterization from Amy in Heroes. But I don't think Boom!Amy deviates far from any answer you can give.

That is a fair question and think it should also be applied to the others too in the form of, "what is the unique contribution that these characters have to offer?"

In the case of Amy, often her best is shown when she's not with Sonic since it offers the character the needed space to branch out of her initial "love interest" role where she gets to do things like helping other characters, either by being compassionate and protect them like she did with the bird from SA1, feel empathy for the bad guys like Gamma and Shadow and latch to that inner good that she sees in them to set them straight into the path of good, or be supportive and believe in those that face distress like she once did a long ago, helping them realize that they are much stronger and capable than they ever imagined like when she led Cream and Big on a quest to save their friends in Heroes.

I wonder what can be said for Tails and Knuckles to offer on their own or what they can do under the same condition of not mentioning either Sonic nor the "trio", given how both of them seem to revolve around that.

[DabigRG]

31 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

 

I wonder what can be said for Tails and Knuckles to offer on their own or what they can do under the same condition of not mentioning either Sonic nor the "trio", given how both of them seem to revolve around that.

I'm more curious about Tails than Knuckles, tbh.

[Fire-N-Space]

Just now, BaronGrackle said:

Using only Sonic Heroes for reference, tell me a little about Amy. Her interests, her motivations, her fears. Try it without using the word "Sonic".

EDIT: I originally meant this as a joke, but yes you can pull characterization from Amy in Heroes. But I don't think Boom!Amy deviates far from any answer you can give.

Sonic is Amy's main motivation just like everyone else in that game then if I were to use only Sonic Boom Fire & Ice for reference  what are the interests,  motivations, and fears for Amy in that game because I can't find anything beside her hammer.

 

  

[BaronGrackle]

22 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

I wonder what can be said for Tails and Knuckles to offer on their own or what they can do under the same condition of not mentioning either Sonic nor the "trio", given how both of them seem to revolve around that.

A decent question, and one that makes me regret my challenge to Fire-N-Space. When evaluating Tails's and Knuckles's motivations in Sonic Heroes, without referring to Sonic, it is fairly barebones.

Tails wants to stop Eggman and be a team player - whoever his allies may be. Knuckles wants to stop Eggman and be a hero in general. They have the same goals as Sonic, but the true layers to their characters are linked to their interactions with Sonic. I'm tempted to do a whole "What Tails Means to Me" and "What Knuckles Means to Me" spiel, but not now. Maybe later.

21 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Sonic is Amy's main motivation just like everyone else in that game then if I were to use only Sonic Boom Fire & Ice for reference  what are the interests,  motivations, and fears for Amy in that game because I can't find anything beside her hammer.

 

  

In light of what I said about Tails and Knuckles, I accept the opinion that Amy has deeper layers that come out in her interactions with Sonic.

Amy Rose is an interesting case, because her character depictions are always SIMILAR, but they have key distinctions. I know Skull Leader prefers a version of Amy that acts as a hero independent of Sonic (e.g. Sonic Advance and Adventure) or that helps others in need who might otherwise be overlooked (e.g. Sonic Adventure), or that achieves her goals through empathy and diplomacy (e.g. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2).

For Sonic Heroes? In Sonic Heroes, I think Amy is a mirror for Sonic in more than just gameplay. Watch this. I'm going to say some things about Sonic, but pretend I'm talking about Amy in Heroes instead:

"Sonic is a force of nature. He has a goal, a destination, and nothing can slow him down from reaching it. He lands in the role of team leader not because of his leadership skills or strategy, but because he is a river that flows forward and collects followers who cannot pull themselves away. They are awestruck by this force of nature - they want to follow it, they want to help it, they want to be a part of it. And the cosmic beauty is that by helping Sonic, they are helping to achieve their own goals in the most effective way possible."

That is Sonic, but it is also Amy in Heroes. The song "Follow Me" is about Amy and Sonic, but it's also about Cream and Cheese, and it's also about Big and Froggy. Team Rose is bound not by the connection between its three members, but by the shared passion they have in searching for the sake of another loved one. They are coursing down the same river, and their journey would not exist if not for Amy gravitating them toward her.

. . .

For Sonic Boom, everything you need to know about the sheer beauty and depth of Amy's character is contained in the episode "Fuzzy Puppy Buddies". It might be my favorite in the series.

[Skull Leader]

I agree with you Baron in that there is a similarity, but also the way it is played keep both teams from feeling the same because of the scales of what is at stake.

With Sonic, like you said, he doesn't need to lead not only because he knows that he himself is more than enough of a force of nature to make a difference, but also the ones who follow him, Tails and Knuckles, are veterans that already had quite the few adventures and experience under their belts. They are basically the team of super heroes that go put to save the world.

With team Amy, their adventure is, compared to Sonic's, on a smaller scale... However, it is also a more personal one. Amy leads a team because she is the one whom both Cream and Big decide to rely upon to look for their friends, and who Amy helps, encourages and cheer to not give up nor lose hope because in both of the she sees her past self that once relied on others, mainly Sonic, to save her and can relate to her team mates. Their mission is to rescue a couple of small critters that mean the world for Cream, Chocola and Big. Where Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are the super heroes, these three are the average civvies who become heroes because all they need is the will to do what is right.

By having Amy go on her own adventures, she can grow as a character by helping those that were like her old self from the CD days, as well as going further by being the one character who feels empathy for bad guys due to her belief that there is good in everyone and sometimes they just need some help to find that inner good within them. Amy can grow into a heroine, but she needs to also do things in a way that is unique to what Sonic does. This is why even if she carries a hammer to defend herself and fight well enough to keep up with others, her most powerful weapon is her heart. Isn't it funny how this character that many see as having a short temper has done much more without a single hammer swing, like when she befriended Gamma, reminded Shadow about his promise or even stoped Silver, the guy who was about to murder her darling Sonic, without a physical confrontation?

This is why I think Tails really needs to branch off a bit, since he can't really hope to grow by staying all the time by Sonic's side. Remember how much like in Amy's SA1 story, it was chance what led to Tails and Sonic to become separated, with Tails finding himself for the very first time on his own. Yes, he had experience and learned all he could from Sonic, but this test in front of him, the need to act now without the relative safety he felt by having Sonic by his side was something Tails never faced before...and he succeeded in the end by not only defeating Robotnik, but  also saving the entire city of Station Square.

However, I don't think Tails' road has to end there. Maybe his true path lies not in becoming a hero like Sonic, but in him becoming a hero to someone who needs a role model, who can show that where some see sometjing to mock, there may lie a strength, sometjing that makes them unique. Or what if him coming full circle had to do with confronting the bullies, and make them understand why what they do is wrong.

Sonic is what started a big change in Tails and Amy's life, but to grow up, they need to make their own path instead of simply following the one that Sonic has traced for himself.

[Sonic Fan J]

12 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

I agree with you Baron in that there is a similarity, but also the way it is played keep both teams from feeling the same because of the scales of what is at stake.

With Sonic, like you said, he doesn't need to lead not only because he knows that he himself is more than enough of a force of nature to make a difference, but also the ones who follow him, Tails and Knuckles, are veterans that already had quite the few adventures and experience under their belts. They are basically the team of super heroes that go put to save the world.

With team Amy, their adventure is, compared to Sonic's, on a smaller scale... However, it is also a more personal one. Amy leads a team because she is the one whom both Cream and Big decide to rely upon to look for their friends, and who Amy helps, encourages and cheer to not give up nor lose hope because in both of the she sees her past self that once relied on others, mainly Sonic, to save her and can relate to her team mates. Their mission is to rescue a couple of small critters that mean the world for Cream, Chocola and Big. Where Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are the super heroes, these three are the average civvies who become heroes because all they need is the will to do what is right.

By having Amy go on her own adventures, she can grow as a character by helping those that were like her old self from the CD days, as well as going further by being the one character who feels empathy for bad guys due to her belief that there is good in everyone and sometimes they just need some help to find that inner good within them. Amy can grow into a heroine, but she needs to also do things in a way that is unique to what Sonic does. This is why even if she carries a hammer to defend herself and fight well enough to keep up with others, her most powerful weapon is her heart. Isn't it funny how this character that many see as having a short temper has done much more without a single hammer swing, like when she befriended Gamma, reminded Shadow about his promise or even stoped Silver, the guy who was about to murder her darling Sonic, without a physical confrontation?

This is why I think Tails really needs to branch off a bit, since he can't really hope to grow by staying all the time by Sonic's side. Remember how much like in Amy's SA1 story, it was chance what led to Tails and Sonic to become separated, with Tails finding himself for the very first time on his own. Yes, he had experience and learned all he could from Sonic, but this test in front of him, the need to act now without the relative safety he felt by having Sonic by his side was something Tails never faced before...and he succeeded in the end by not only defeating Robotnik, but  also saving the entire city of Station Square.

However, I don't think Tails' road has to end there. Maybe his true path lies not in becoming a hero like Sonic, but in him becoming a hero to someone who needs a role model, who can show that where some see sometjing to mock, there may lie a strength, sometjing that makes them unique. Or what if him coming full circle had to do with confronting the bullies, and make them understand why what they do is wrong.

Sonic is what started a big change in Tails and Amy's life, but to grow up, they need to make their own path instead of simply following the one that Sonic has traced for himself.

I really like a lot of this @Skull Leader as it also doesn't prevent either character from encountering Sonic. To play off of it a bit even if Amy's adventure takes her through all the same places as Sonic the stakes could be as small as her simply failing to see Sonic that time around which to Amy is the world in a way (it's kind of like my favorite analogy that a blister means a lot more to a hand model than a construction site worker). To play it in a more comical light, I could actually see Tails becoming Sonic's biggest rival as the two would be both trying to stop Eggman with Sonic just being Sonic and Tails trying to be to someone else what Sonic was to him. In it's own way it would even allow you to make a Sonic game with four characters that all go through the same stages (saving on resources) with the same end game of get from point A to point B as fast as possible and allows every character to have their own narrative which further enriches subsequent playthroughs beyond gameplay alone.

[E-122-Psi]

I think a large problem with portrayal (or even having an OPENING for a good portrayal) is the games' lack of character agency. To quote another site

"Character agency is, to me, a demonstration of the character’s ability to make decisions and affect the story. This character has motivations all her own. She is active more than she is reactive. She pushes on the plot more than the plot pushes on her. Even better, the plot exists as a direct result of the character’s actions."

Character agency is a character's ability to have unique effect on how the plot unfolds by their personality and attributes.

Most of the characters don't really comply to that. Even in the games where character other than Sonic are playable, the games have slowly went for making them interchangeable pawns or unindividual teammates. Knuckles and Amy are just another of Sonic's buddies, same for Rouge and Omega for Shadow (who himself is now just taking orders from GUN).

In fact this isn't just a plague in the games either, cases like some of the comics and cartoons often go for making the majority of the cast a professional operation of hero soldiers like the Freedom Fighters or just groupies for Sonic. Sonic himself, while maybe altruistic, is almost always generally basic enough in character to just be a standard reactor hero. Tails conveniently is a run of the mill sidekick who follows whatever Sonic's doing.

I think that's why some people at least liked the concept of Sonic Adventure 1 on paper, since it was multiple characters all having their own story and motivations and mostly working individually with unique abilities and directions. After that came the slow demotion of characters into bare bones hero groups or even worse demoted to NPCs with just generic placement. There's not much room TO be a full character there.

Maybe that's also why people were willing to give Boom a try, since the focus on more incidental stories meant more focus on character driven plots, no matter how silly or mundane.

[A person, that exists]

Oh boy, now this is an interesting topic.

Honestly, when I don't feel like I have a split personality and actually make up my fucking mind about the Sonic series as a whole and not changing it every five minutes, I begin to realize that the real case of character deterioration was there since 2006, hiding in the shadows, and being generally overlooked.

Of course, I'm talking about Blaze, one of (If not my favorite) my favorite Sonic characters and female characters in children's media in general. Originally a scrapped design for Sonic's rival in SA2, Blaze was really a kind of Shadow 2.0, which makes sense, considering how Shadow the Hedgehog was meant to end Shadow's story, thus removing any possibility of him appearing in later games. I suppose that Blaze was really meant to be a replacement rival, who had all the GOOD traits of both Knuckles and Shadow, being the ultimate rival of sorts. 

So, her first appearance was actually quite good. Sonic Rush Blaze was this cool-headed guardian-type character, who was fighting Sonic for her duty, rather than being tricked by Eggman. She was generally an "I'm on my own, don't get into my business"-type character, which she learned to overcome at the end of the game, by teaming up with Sonic and defeating Eggman and Nega and returning to her home dimension. Good character with a good arc and a decent payoff.

Now, you would think that in her next appearance, Blaze would still be the independent and awesome pyromaniac cat with attitude, right? 

Wrong.

Enter Sonic 2006, or Sonic Next Gen (SNG for short), as I would be calling it. In this game, not only wass Blaze stuck in the future, when she should've been in the Sol dimension, but she was also a sidekick of a new character, that character being Silver the Hedgehog. Surprisingly enough, Blaze didn't become a bumbling moron, or a blown out of proportion caricature of herself, generally staying pretty true to her Rush self, but... She was no longer a rival.

While Knuckles, despite becoming Sonic's obedient lackey in games like SNG or Shadow, still had some rival-ey banter with Sonic, and Shadow remained a "Friendly rival" of sorts, Blaze just became another character's sidekick, and, in fact, didn't have ANY interactions with Sonic. At all. And, although her sacrifice in the end was somewhat sad, the damage to Blaze's character has been done, and the poor cat continued to fall into the void.

Not only did Shadow make a return in SNG, but her role was literally destroyed just to force another character. Blaze was dead, both metaphorically, and in-universe, and what remained of her was not really all that great. Sonic Rush Adventure made her an unlikable prick, who barely had any impact on the story, and was just there, being a playable sidekick for Sonic, and the later Olympic Games and Generations turned the serious pyromaniac into a soulless "Token pal" of Sonic's. The only real bright moment of Blaze's later existence was Percival from Black Knight, who seemed to be the best Blaze in the three years the character was deteriorating. Heck, at this point her character degraded so far, that she's not even acknowledged by Sega anymore, being dropped out of Forces, and overall being forgotten about.

Pretty sad, dontcha' think?

[Almar]

44 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Most of the characters don't really comply to that. Even in the games where character other than Sonic are playable, the games have slowly went for making them interchangeable pawns or unindividual teammates. Knuckles and Amy are just another of Sonic's buddies, same for Rouge and Omega for Shadow (who himself is now just taking orders from GUN).

I'd argue that Shadow working for GUN is of dubious canon (only coming up in 06 and Dark Brotherhood, a game that retconned itself and a Western RPG respectively). He doesn't seem to be working for anybody in Forces. So he wouldn't be a bad example of a character outside of Sonic agency if he wasn't irrelevant beyond DLC.

[BaronGrackle]

Right, Sonic Boom. The "Fuzzy Puppy Buddies" episode and why I like what it did with Amy.

"Spoilers!"

1) Early sources link Amy to using tarot cards. Most unfortunately, we've never seen that in action (except Sonic Chronicles?). But in this episode, Amy's understanding and use of the puppy figures makes me think of this trait.

2) She helps Eggman understand an interest that he already had but didn't grasp very deeply.

3) We see a clear distinction between Amy's and Eggman's collecting/playing strategies. Eggman values the rare, powerful heavy hitters. Amy has a balanced collection but has an extra soft spot for support pieces. Sound familiar?

4) At the end she defeats Eggman herself, unconventionally, without her hammer.

5) She outstrategizes and defeats Eggman because, despite teaching him everything she could think of and being entirely open with him in their gaming friendship, she STILL understood the game better than he ever could.

6) By the way, she beat him by literally using a support piece that was usually useless but was able to change the game in this situation, because Eggman ignored it. Familiar?

7) She convinces Eggman to uphold the victory terms through diplomacy.

[E-122-Psi]

As said, Boom's writing isn't golden, but it is definitely one of the stronger attempts at making a Sonic work that is totally character driven.

It's strange because most of the actual action scenes in the show are generic as hell smashing robots, but there tends to be a lot more plot built around it. Often Eggman is clever enough to play on all the heroes' characters to put them out of action.

[DabigRG]

16 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Right, Sonic Boom. The "Fuzzy Puppy Buddies" episode and why I like what it did with Amy.

"Spoilers!"

1) Early sources link Amy to using tarot cards. Most unfortunately, we've never seen that in action (except Sonic Chronicles?). But in this episode, Amy's understanding and use of the puppy figures makes me think of this trait.

2) She helps Eggman understand an interest that he already had but didn't grasp very deeply.

3) We see a clear distinction between Amy's and Eggman's collecting/playing strategies. Eggman values the rare, powerful heavy hitters. Amy has a balanced collection but has an extra soft spot for support pieces. Sound familiar?

4) At the end she defeats Eggman herself, unconventionally, without her hammer.

5) She outstrategizes and defeats Eggman because, despite teaching him everything she could think of and being entirely open with him in their gaming friendship, she STILL understood the game better than he ever could.

6) By the way, she beat him by literally using a support piece that was usually useless but was able to change the game in this situation, because Eggman ignored it. Familiar?

7) She convinces Eggman to uphold the victory terms through diplomacy.

Those two really were the most fleshed out members of the cast, for better or worse.

Also, "Familiar?"

[Skull Leader]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Those two really were the most fleshed out members of the cast, for better or worse.

Also, "Familiar?"

Sometimes the most unlikely of characters can make a big difference.

Just to pit an example within this franchise: remember how Mephiles plan in 06 consisted in making his enemy, Silver, to travel into the past and be the one who'd triiger the apocalypse by killing Sonic.

Guess which character screwed up his big plan by stopping Silver from finishing Sonic?

 

Also I agree with E-122 on how a lot of the characters nowadays seem to be more reactors instead of them being the ones who make things happen, though to be fair, this is only the fault of whoever writes and decides how to use them.

In videogames, there is also the issue of how there is only so much that can be done in regards to storytelling.

However, I think this is also a symptom that comes from how Sonic Team decided to solely focus on Sonic, Tails and Eggman, being this last character the only one that still delivers because of how things happen as result of his actions.

This is also why I think some character rotation is needed, as I think that there are characters that can still do things on their own that impact the story instesd of being limited to simply react to what Eggman does. Characters like Amy, Rouge, the Chaotix... You know, the ones that have an actual life and are not just waiting for trouble to start in order to go save the world whenever Eggman strikes, nor act because of some duty but rather are motivated by their own personal goals... Speaking of which, I too feel this is an aspect that these characters loose when they are made to form a group driven by a single goal, like in the case of them being absorbed into the ranks of a group such as the Freedom Fighters.

[BaronGrackle]

Isn't it true that in many/most stories, the villains are proactive while the heroes are reactive?

[DabigRG]

13 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Isn't it true that in many/most stories, the villains are proactive while the heroes are reactive?

Pretty much. However, there is frequently a desire for heroes to at least occasionally drive their own stories, for better or worse.

[Fire-N-Space]

The Amy in Heroes, Battle, and Chronicles is where she really shines for when she thinks of a idea she go's for it energetic and yearning for excitement she then falls in love with a guy who holds the same way of thinking as she does. In these games her hammer feels more like a tool then something she always has her mind on able to attack with girl bomber, blow kiss, Tarot Draw and so on not just the hammer.

Amy in Boom has good episodes like "Fortress of Squalitude", "Give Bees a Chance", and "Fuzzy Puppy Buddies" but in a show about the characters the wait between episodes to see Amy's side of life is far to long and inconsistent.

[RedFox99]

7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think a large problem with portrayal (or even having an OPENING for a good portrayal) is the games' lack of character agency. To quote another site

"Character agency is, to me, a demonstration of the character’s ability to make decisions and affect the story. This character has motivations all her own. She is active more than she is reactive. She pushes on the plot more than the plot pushes on her. Even better, the plot exists as a direct result of the character’s actions."

Character agency is a character's ability to have unique effect on how the plot unfolds by their personality and attributes.

Most of the characters don't really comply to that. Even in the games where character other than Sonic are playable, the games have slowly went for making them interchangeable pawns or unindividual teammates. Knuckles and Amy are just another of Sonic's buddies, same for Rouge and Omega for Shadow (who himself is now just taking orders from GUN).

In fact this isn't just a plague in the games either, cases like some of the comics and cartoons often go for making the majority of the cast a professional operation of hero soldiers like the Freedom Fighters or just groupies for Sonic. Sonic himself, while maybe altruistic, is almost always generally basic enough in character to just be a standard reactor hero. Tails conveniently is a run of the mill sidekick who follows whatever Sonic's doing.

I think that's why some people at least liked the concept of Sonic Adventure 1 on paper, since it was multiple characters all having their own story and motivations and mostly working individually with unique abilities and directions. After that came the slow demotion of characters into bare bones hero groups or even worse demoted to NPCs with just generic placement. There's not much room TO be a full character there.

Maybe that's also why people were willing to give Boom a try, since the focus on more incidental stories meant more focus on character driven plots, no matter how silly or mundane.

All of this. 

The issue with Forces' use of the characters in my eyes is that they didn't leave much of an impact on the story aside from starting the Resistiance, and even that was glossed.