With Mega Man 11 being announced and how it looks...

[Shiny Gems]

Would you guys want the next 2D Classic-like Sonic game after Mania to be 2.5D like Mega Man 11 is going to be? For reference, here is Mega Man 11's trailer.
 

It was just released today. I am aware we had Sonic 4 episodes one and two already, but those did not have Classic Sonic and face it, it wasn't much of a Classic Sonic game as much as it was more of a modern one. So, what do you think of the idea of a 2.5D Classic-like Sonic game after Mania, like Mega Man 11? It would be made by The Taxman, of course.

[Dr. Mechano]

Nah, I'd prefer 2D sprites.

I think the pre-rendered 3D sprite aesthetic is honestly kind of soulless-looking most of the time. And I'm not crazy about it in Mega Man 11 either, even though I think the game itself looks promising.

[Natie]

It'd have to be VERY stylized in order to work for Sonic, and I'd rather just have HD 2D art at that point.

[DiamondX]

Yes please.

At this point, 2D sprites is just for nostalgia's sake, and I'm glad Capcom aknowledged it.

[Wraith]

Nope. The spritework is really charming and beautiful and it'd be a waste of a lot of talent to just ditch it for something that looks way more generic imo.
 

The amount of detail in Mania is insane sometimes. Don't see why you'd want to let this go

 

[Dr. Mechano]

3 minutes ago, DiamondX said:

Yes please.

At this point, 2D sprites is just for nostalgia's sake, and I'm glad Capcom aknowledged it.

It's fine to have a preference, but I think it's a bit dismissive to think that 2D sprites can't just be a legitimate stylistic choice beyond nostalgia-pandering.

Look at Wario Land: Shake It, a game from 2009:

This game had beautiful 2D assets, and still looked totally "modern." Rather than opting for the prerendered 3D look of the NSMB games, Shake It used handdrawn characters and backgrounds for everything, and I think it gave the game way more of a unique identiy than 3D models ever could have.

I'm not knocking 3D out of hand, but I do think that it's a mistake to say that 2D graphics should never be used just because we can do 3D now.

[DiamondX]

I'm not saying that. I'm mostly reffering to sprites.

Handrawn would be better than sprites for sure.

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, DiamondX said:

I'm not saying that. I'm mostly reffering to sprites.

Handrawn would be better than sprites for sure.

I mean, sprites can look really nice too though.

Look how detailed Shovel Knight looks, for example. I think sprites are still, and will always be, a legitimate aesthetic choice. There's nothing with mixing things up and doing something different sometimes, but I reject the idea that sprites should be a thing of the past and never used again just because we can do other styles now.

I don't think that the use of 2D sprites is just some passing retro nostalgia fad; It's an enduring stylistic choice, and I hope it continues to be used in many more games to come. 

[Shiny Gems]

13 minutes ago, DiamondX said:

Yes please.

At this point, 2D sprites is just for nostalgia's sake, and I'm glad Capcom aknowledged it.

Glad I am not the only one who thinks this.

3 minutes ago, DiamondX said:

I'm not saying that. I'm mostly reffering to sprites.

Handrawn would be better than sprites for sure.

On the other hand, though, a hand-drawn 2D Classic Sonic game would be just as kickass to me.

[Multikaris]

Don’t we already have Sonic Team’s stuff for that? 

 

I can imagine vice-versa, an official Doom-styled false 3D Sonic Game.

[Marcello]

If it went 3D, I'd want it more like Generations than Mega Man 11.

But, I'm pretty happy with what Mania did. They didn't just go for 16-bit, they decided to make the game as if it was on SEGA Saturn, which still made it feel like an evolution unlike Mega Man 9 and 10. Mania is absolutely gorgeous, too.

13 minutes ago, Dr. Mechanhohoho said:

It's fine to have a preference, but I think it's a bit dismissive to think that 2D sprites can't just be a legitimate stylistic choice beyond nostalgia-pandering.

Look at Wario Land: Shake It, a game from 2009:

This game had beautiful 2D assets, and still looked totally "modern." Rather than opting for the prerendered 3D look of the NSMB games, Shake It used handdrawn characters and backgrounds for everything, and I think it gave the game way more of a unique identiy than 3D models ever could have.

I'm not knocking 3D out of hand, but I do think that it's a mistake to say that 2D graphics should never be used just because we can do 3D now.

I hate how this looks. The way everything is outlined makes it all look flat.

[Diogenes]

Not particularly. MM11 looks ok...but only just ok. It doesn't really stand out. And we've already had 2.5D Classic Sonic in Generations and Forces and it looks ok too, but I've still never been terribly impressed by it.

Mania, on the other hand, is absolutely gorgeous, and I'm not sure any part of it would've looked better had they gone with 3D assets over 2D.

If they could come up with a style that matches or beats Mania I'd be fine with it, but that's a pretty tall order.

[mayday2592]

I feel like it's time they left the 8/16 bit style for a while. Way too many games are going for that style and I'm really tired of it personally. I'd rather see the next 2d game have a similar style to Generations or a hand drawn style similar to the recent Wonder Boy on switch.

[Maxtiis]

I'd keep it with either traditional pixel sprites or higher definition, hand animated ones. 3-D models can look okay for 2-D gameplay, but oftentimes it appears cheap and often the lighting and texture work leaves a lot to be desired, and it seems more economical to me at least to continue using sprites for 2-D games as there are less assets to potentially screw up. Not that Mega Man 11 looks awful, but games like Mighty No. 9 certainly didn't do the choice of 2.5-D games any favors.

And admittedly I'm biased towards 2-D animation over 3-D. 2-D animation has been basically declared dead with the popularity of 3-D cartoons and movies, so I'm happy to see it alive and well in video games at least (thank you Cuphead and Studio MDHR for bringing the topic to the public consciousness, however little it may be). If anyone does decide to go with 2.5-D, it'd be nice to see some hand drawn art overlayed on some of the 3-D environment; often times it makes it look cleaner. Based on some screenshots of MM11, they might be doing this in some places.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

Mega Man 11 looks awful to me from the trailer, not impressed. If a future Classic Sonic game decides to go with 3D... I just hope they do a better job then this. However I'm fine with whatever they end up choosing, Pixel art, HD art, 3D graphics... I don't care which much just as long as it looks good and not cheap.

[Salamander]

While I wouldn't say I'd want it to look exactly like MM11, I do think it would be helpful for future 2D-Classic efforts to throw off the "retro" label.  I absolutely believe that retro-style graphics can be a legitimate aesthetic choice, and have little time for the view that all games should be at the bleeding edge of graphical power - but I would like a 2D Sonic game which can convince people that it is something more than a throwback to twenty years ago; I want 2D Sonic to be the true Modern Sonic.  And I think that will probably require an enhancement to the Mania approach, whilst retaining its understanding and evocation of the detail-rich pixel art of days gone by.  Doesn't have to be 3D or even 2.5D by any means; HD, hand-drawn, or just slightly higher-resolution with stylistic tweaks would be fine.  This is essentially what MM11 is doing; they did their retro throwbacks, and they were good, and now they're making a game which couldn't have been made thirty years ago.

[JosepHenry]

Next game should ditch the fake console limitations, pixel art or not. Limiting the game's capacity for the sake of nostalgia needs to die. As pretty as Mania is, they could have done much more with the graphics, more frames of animation for example.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

Mega Man 11 is just a nostalgic retro game. At least Mania did it with better execution.

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, JosepHenry said:

Next game should ditch the fake console limitations, pixel art or not. Limiting the game's capacity for the sake of nostalgia needs to die. As pretty as Mania is, they could have done much more with the graphics, more frames of animation for example.

It's not entirely a case of nostalgia trumping good visuals. Sometimes it also falls within the team's actual real life limitations and it's a style they understood how to pull off well. 

I feel like a lot of people here don't really look beyond the surface level when it comes to some of these things. 

[Tracker_TD]

For that matter - more frames doesn't equal better animation. Take the likes of Studio TRIGGER's work for example - they skimp out on frames a lot, but their technique lends a blisteringly fast and dynamic style to their work. 

Even if Mania did need more frames (it... kind of doesn't, there's already utterly tons of frames of animation for every action), being styled after the Saturn wouldn't particularly restrict that. It's more likely a case of time, budget, and whether the devs thought it was needed or whether it'd just be having more for the sake of having more.

 

Anyway, I'll take more Saturn-styled Sonic stuff, gladly. Mania's one of the best looking Sonic games I've ever played. What matters more to me is artstyle, something Mania has on lock. 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

9 minutes ago, Josh said:

It's not entirely a case of nostalgia trumping good visuals. Sometimes it also falls within the team's actual real life limitations and it's a style they understood how to pull off well. 

I feel like a lot of people here don't really look beyond the surface level when it comes to some of these things. 

True.

I think the matter is that the "retro" styled games feel a bit too cliche in this current era. So is so much nostalgic driven things just to please the masses but without attempting to advance the current formula, only making some tweaks. 

Take Disney's Star Wars for instance. Completely generic and devoid of actual creative potential. Limiting themselves for the sake of it. Compare that to 1977 ANH or The Phantom Menace. Innovation galore.

Mania, despite the rehash of literally 70% of the game, showcases creative flow within the development team. Sure, it doesn't come up to standards with today's technology but that's okay. Everyone starts off rough when coming up with new ideas and I don't expect them to go so big due to their limitations. 

Still...I would love to experience the "Rayman Legends" of Classic Sonic. 

[JosepHenry]

Fine, first real game of the team, they don't have that much experience with something more advanced, okay, but limitations shouldn't be a problem in a Mania sequel. Mania is not the maximum the Mania Team can do, and that's my opinion. Mania does not look amazing to me.

13 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Mega Man 11 is just a nostalgic retro game. At least Mania did it with better execution.

What? Except MM 11 is a completely new game with completely new levels, new designs, and feels like something after Mega Man 8? While Mania is a game that has uses updated 16-bit graphics and 8 throwback levels out of 12.... Or am I wrong?

[Tracker_TD]

5 minutes ago, JosepHenry said:

Fine, first real game of the team, they don't have that much experience with something more advanced, okay, but limitations shouldn't be a problem in a Mania sequel. Mania is not the maximum the Mania Team can do, and that's my opinion. Mania does not look amazing to me.

The Team have plenty of experience (Major Magnet has hand-drawn sprites for instance) - they just wanted to make a Saturn-styled Sonic game, because that was their creative vision - the next step for a Classic game after the Mega Drive and 32X, would be on the Saturn. This ties back to what Josh said  - people look at pixel art graphics and brush it off at surface level, without considering how the style was informed (such as Saturn's increased colour palette and animation capacity coming into play, or the rotation effects based on Silhouette Mirage). This is before considering the aesthetics themselves - how level designs are constructed and the cohesive nature they provide within Sonic's world. Aesthetically, it looks more like a Sonic game than the dreary shite of say, 06, despite being 'inferior' graphically. 

Being 3D wouldn't make it better on the virtue of being 3D. Hell knows Mighty No 9 doesn't look better than Mania just for being 3D. 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 minute ago, JosepHenry said:

Fine, first real game of the team, they don't have that much experience with something more advanced, okay, but limitations shouldn't be a problem in a Mania sequel. Mania is not the maximum the Mania Team can do, and that's my opinion. Mania does not look amazing to me.

What? Except MM 11 is a completely new game with completely new levels, new designs, and feels like something after Mega Man 8? While Mania is a game that has uses updated 16-bit graphics and 8 throwback levels out of 12.... Or am I wrong?

MM X was the evolution of the MM styled video games. This is just going back for the sake of it to add onto some numerical value as if it's "NEW". The thing is; Mania entire visual and graphical purpose was to act as if it was released on the Saturn. The said contents can be highly argued against, but the style of choice is intentional.

Though I do agree the rehashed levels in Mania is a complete drab in all honestly. 

[JosepHenry]

2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

The Team have plenty of experience (Major Magnet has hand-drawn sprites for instance) - they just wanted to make a Saturn-styled Sonic game, because that was their creative vision - the next step for a Classic game after the Mega Drive and 32X, would be on the Saturn. This ties back to what Josh said  - people look at pixel art graphics and brush it off at surface level, without considering how the style was informed (such as Saturn's increased colour palette and animation capacity coming into play, or the rotation effects based on Silhouette Mirage). 

Being 3D wouldn't make it better on the virtue of being 3D. Hell knows Mighty No 9 doesn't look better than Mania just for being 3D. 

My point is not making graphics 3D. Is making them above levels of 8-bit to 32-bit. Heck I would gladly take a handrawn MM11 over the 2.5D aesthetic.