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With Mega Man 11 being announced and how it looks...


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2 minutes ago, JosepHenry said:

My point is not making graphics 3D. Is making them above levels of 8-bit to 32-bit. Heck I would gladly take a handrawn MM11 over the 2.5D aesthetic.

Hand-drawn sprites don't guarantee success either. Again, this is just a surface level look at things  - 32-bit sprites were used on an old system, so suddenly pixel art is just irrelevant? Even when the artstyle of the game itself ensures those pixels are put to good use? (Press Garden 2 comes to mind).

Well no, that'd be daft. 

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1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

Hand-drawn sprites don't guarantee success either. Again, this is just a surface level look at things  - 32-bit sprites were used on an old system, so suddenly pixel art is just irrelevant? Even when the artstyle of the game itself ensures those pixels are put to good use? (Press Garden 2 comes to mind).

Well no, that'd be daft. 

Well, I can see where they were going with the 32 Bit Sprites, and that was fine. However, I personally think they can't keep doing the sprite thing forever just for nostalgic reasons. Sure, Mania does look pretty, but 2.5D I believe can be just as pretty with the right art style. I personally don't care if a future Classic based Sonic game were hand drawn or 2.5D, I just think they should move from the sprites graphics at some point when they can. I mean, I think an evolution from the sprite graphics would be a good thing, personally. Like I said, it can either be hand drawn or 2.5D, and it doesn't have to be the next game, but I don't think they should stick to the 32 Bit sprite thing forever, you know what I mean?

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9 minutes ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

Well, I can see where they were going with the 32 Bit Sprites, and that was fine. However, I personally think they can't keep doing the sprite thing forever just for nostalgic reasons. Sure, Mania does look pretty, but 2.5D I believe can be just as pretty with the right art style. I personally don't care if a future Classic based Sonic game were hand drawn or 2.5D, I just think they should move from the sprites graphics at some point when they can. I mean, I think an evolution from the sprite graphics would be a good thing, personally. Like I said, it can either be hand drawn or 2.5D, and it doesn't have to be the next game, but I don't think they should stick to the 32 Bit sprite thing forever, you know what I mean?

I don't think remaining 32-bit forever would get stale by itself, but a stagnated artstyle may. However the idea of pixel art in general being obsolete, and needing to be "evolved from" just shows a complete lack of understanding in terms of artstyle. Pixel art isn't easy - the idea it's somehow 'lesser' than traditional illustration purely on the basis of being associated with 'retro' video game hardware is an insult to the artists who slave away at making it look good (such as with Mania).

I've been doing a pixel art based project recently, and it's given me a greater respect for the work pixel artists do than I already had. Trying to convey through pixel art is incredibly difficult, and the fact Mania manages it so consistently and so well is a testament to the consideration behind the game's artwork. 

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Just now, Tracker_TD said:

Hand-drawn sprites don't guarantee success either. Again, this is just a surface level look at things  - 32-bit sprites were used on an old system, so suddenly pixel art is just irrelevant? Even when the artstyle of the game itself ensures those pixels are put to good use? (Press Garden 2 comes to mind).

Well no, that'd be daft. 

Uh I don't want pixel art to be ditched either. I want it to be used to it's full potential. sure I don't want games taking a decade just because of that but still, tree leafs and grass move with wind, characters react move to things like falling, or even just standing, wouldn't hurt that much to the point the game having to be delayed for 5 years.

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I don't see anything special about Mega Man 11's graphics, whereas I saw numerous things about the spritework that tickled my fancy in Sonic Mania's reveal trailer alone. Personally I can't imagine how anyone could look at it and think to themselves "wow I wish Mania looked like this"

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2 minutes ago, JosepHenry said:

Uh I don't want pixel art to be ditched either. I want it to be used to it's full potential. sure I don't want games taking a decade just because of that but still, tree leafs and grass move with wind, characters react move to things like falling, or even just standing, wouldn't hurt that much to the point the game having to be delayed for 5 years.

...you've never tried pixel art animation, have you?

This stuff sounds trivial, but animation is utter murder. Having all this coded in a dynamic fashion, producing the sprites, creating consistent animations from those sprites (with a smooth number of frames, in Mania's case) is far less trivial than you make out. This is before considering concept art, unused takes on the sprites and animations, ensuring the implementation actually works in game - Not "5 year delay" perhaps, but it's no small fry. 

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1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

I don't think remaining 32-bit forever would get stale by itself, but a stagnated artstyle may. However the idea of pixel art in general being obsolete, and needing to be "evolved from" just shows a complete lack of understanding in terms of artstyle. Pixel art isn't easy - the idea it's somehow 'lesser' than traditional illustration purely on the basis of being associated with 'retro' video game hardware is an insult to the artists who slave away at making it look good (such as with Mania).

I've been doing a pixel art based project recently, and it's given me a greater respect for the work pixel artists do than I already had. 

And what makes you think 32 Bit forever would not get stale?

I never said it was obsolete, nor should it be abandoned. I personally think it isn't obsolete. However, this isn't just about 32 bit sprites by themselves, but rather them being used for the sake of nostalgia, which Mania was basically going for, even with the "What if it was for Sega Saturn" thing. I understand that nostalgia and 32 bit sprites may be different from each other in a way, but I don't see that being the case with Mania. I mean, that game was intended to have nostalgia, throwback levels and sprites and all. What I am saying is that you can't live off of that forever. Like I said, hand drawn or 2.5D, I don't care, but I believe an evolution of some kind, whether in gameplay or graphics, especially in terms of graphics, would make it a bit more modern and make the nostalgia thing less stale in my eyes.

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Just now, CrystalStorm51 said:

And what makes you think 32 Bit forever would not get stale?

I never said it was obsolete, nor should it be abandoned. I personally think it isn't obsolete. However, this isn't just about 32 bit sprites by themselves, but rather them being used for the sake of nostalgia, which Mania was basically going for, even with the "What if it was for Sega Saturn" thing. I understand that nostalgia and 32 bit sprites may be different from each other in a way, but I don't see that being the case with Mania. I mean, that game was intended to have nostalgia, throwback levels and sprites and all. What I am saying is that you can't live off of that forever. Like I said, hand drawn or 2.5D, I don't care, but I believe an evolution of some kind, whether in gameplay or graphics, especially in terms of graphics, would make it a bit more modern and make the nostalgia thing less stale in my eyes.

3D models are used constantly today - but that hasn't got stale for Modern Sonic. Why would 2D sprites get stale for Classic Sonic?

Again, it's merely because you associate pixel art with 'retro' systems, instead of seeing it as an art form that can stand on its own. Mania uses them because it suits the SEGA Saturn styling, but if a 32-bit look is the dev's vision for how they want the game to look, there is far more reason for them to want to do that than "nostalgia." 

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Sprites are a legitimate style, and they always will be. I'm tired of this view that sprites are inherently retro-pandering and not a valid aesthetic in and of themselves.

It'd be the same as someone saying that hand-drawn animation is just "nostalgia pandering" and that all cartoons should be CGI now, just because we have the technology to make everything 3D now.

Both styles have their place. I don't want to see either go away entirely. But I'm tired of this "older style = pandering" mentality. It's completely dismissive of pixel art as an aesthetic, and to me that's a rather over-simplistic view of style.

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8 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

3D models are used constantly today - but that hasn't got stale for Modern Sonic. Why would 2D sprites get stale for Classic Sonic?

Again, it's merely because you associate pixel art with 'retro' systems, instead of seeing it as an art form that can stand on its own. Mania uses them because it suits the SEGA Saturn styling, but if a 32-bit look is the dev's vision for how they want the game to look, there is far more reason for them to want to do that than "nostalgia." 

First, I knew that amount Mania, about suiting the Saturn style thing.

Secondly, associating pixel art with retro systems? What are you talking about? I never said that. Never even said retro systems. From what I see, pixel art can be a modern thing too, and not limited to retro style systems. The reason I said stuff about sprites is because we are talking about Mania, a game made to mimic the Genesis style Sonic games from the past, just like how Mega Man 9 and 10 mimicked the style of 8 Bit Mega Man games, and though not everyone hated it in both cases, not everyone liked it, either. So it is kind of a different case here from modern games that use pixel art. Which is why I believe they should do an evolution in terms of graphics sometime in the future. Obviously, they don't have to, but it would nice.

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15 minutes ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

However, I personally think they can't keep doing the sprite thing forever just for nostalgic reasons.

How about if they keep doing it because it looks good.

3D graphics and hand drawn art aren't inherently "evolution" when it comes to a series' art style. They're part of the technological evolution of games, as hardware became more powerful and thus able to render more detailed and more complicated graphics, but there's no obligation that every series follow that evolution. Pixel art works well for 2D Sonic, and it'd be entirely valid to choose to continue using it.

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13 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

...you've never tried pixel art animation, have you?

This stuff sounds trivial, but animation is utter murder. Having all this coded in a dynamic fashion, producing the sprites, creating consistent animations from those sprites (with a smooth number of frames, in Mania's case) is far less trivial than you make out. This is before considering concept art, unused takes on the sprites and animations, ensuring the implementation actually works in game - Not "5 year delay" perhaps, but it's no small fry. 

Hm, you're right. Making animations in 3D could be sometimes easier than in pixel art, it takes less time. pixel takes a lot more time than 3D, because in 3D you could already have the model. You have to draw every frame different than the other in pixel art.... Guess I have to appreciate Mania's work more. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Mechanhohoho said:

But I'm tired of this "older style = pandering" mentality.

Blame the corporate industry and marketing. Too many products abuse this therefore creates this negative mindset of "old style" being poor. But this is solely because a lot of it is poor in execution and does not have a clear goal.

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Just one more thing to say.

Look, I appreciate the art style Mania has, and it does look pretty. I just stated my belief on why a technological graphics evolution would help with not making the games after Mania less nostalgic. That is merely a belief, but I am keeping it. However, if they don't wish to do an evolution and just keep the sprites instead, that is just fine. I am perfectly fine with that. No lie.

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Just now, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Blame the corporate industry and marketing. Too many products abuse this therefore creates this negative mindset of "old style" being poor. But this is solely because a lot of it is poor in execution and does not have a clear goal.

I mean, with all due respect, Mania didn't have poor execution. Its visuals were praised across the board by critics and fans alike because they looked great.

Same with Shovel Knight, which restricted itself to an 8-bit aesthetic both visually and audibly, and it looked and sounded amazing. In part because it didn't look like a cheap parody of an NES game; It looked like an actual NES game, with tons of work and love poured into it.

Your complaints about poor execution and no clear visual goal are valid, but they easily apply to any style, not just 2D sprites. Any style can look good, and it depends on how much effort is put into it.

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Just now, CrystalStorm51 said:

Just one more thing to say.

Look, I appreciate the art style Mania has, and it does look pretty. I just stated my belief on why a technological graphics evolution would help with not making the games after Mania less nostalgic. That is merely a belief, but I am keeping it. However, if they don't wish to do an evolution and just keep the sprites instead, that is just fine. I am perfect with that. No lie.

The main issue here is "evolution". It wouldn't be an evolution, it'd just be a '"change" - evolution implies something like hand-drawn is inherently a step above pixel art, when that isn't the case. 

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1 minute ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

However, if they don't wish to do an evolution and just keep the sprites instead, that is just fine. I am perfect with that. No lie.

I think they did do an evolution, with sprites. The sprites are shinier and more detailed than the ones on the Genesis were, after all. Everything visually "pops" a lot more. The characters have far more detailed animations, and even the backgrounds are fare more visually interesting.

And I think they can continue to evolve the game visually while still using sprites as their medium. Especially if the next game has all original zones instead of "re-imagined classics."

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This doesn't just go for pixel art, either.

Image result for drift stage

Drift Stage uses low-poly 3D - but through a carefully considered artstyle, it easily stands on an aesthetically fantastic level with other 3D titles, using thousands of polygons. 

The format isn't the important thing, how the artstyle is considered within the art's format is the important thing. Hence why Mania looks better than say, Forces, despite Forces' attempts at being cutting-edge - because the artstyle was more carefully considered in Mania, even with the use supposedly 'unevolved' pixel art.

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2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

The main issue here is "evolution". It wouldn't be an evolution, it'd just be a '"change" - evolution implies something like hand-drawn is inherently a step above pixel art, when that isn't the case. 

WHAT-ever. I may have not said it the right way, but I don't think I necessarily said 2.5D/Hand drawn graphics were superior, did I? Both can be good.

1 minute ago, Dr. Mechanhohoho said:

I think they did do an evolution, with sprites. The sprites are shinier and more detailed than the ones on the Genesis were, after all. Everything visually "pops" a lot more. The characters have far more detailed animations, and even the backgrounds are fare more visually interesting.

And I think they can continue to evolve the game visually while still using sprites as their medium. Especially if the next game has all original zones instead of "re-imagined classics."

I am gonna be honest, here. Considering Mania was based on being for the Saturn, even though that was long ago, I do agree on you about that being an evolution. Call me wrong though, if you wish, but to me, based on what I said before, I still think the sprites are still a nostalgic thing. Not that it is a bad thing, for it isn't and I am aware there might be more to it than that.

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Mechanhohoho said:

I mean, with all due respect, Mania didn't have poor execution. Its visuals were praised across the board by critics and fans alike because they looked great.

Same with Shovel Knight, which restricted itself to an 8-bit aesthetic both visually and audibly, and it looked and sounded amazing. In part because it didn't look like a cheap parody of an NES game; It looked like an actual NES game, with tons of work and love poured into it.

Your complaints about poor execution and no clear visual goal are valid, but they easily apply to any style, not just 2D sprites. Any style can look good, and it depends on how much effort is put into it.

Shovel Knight doesn't really look like a NES game. It cheats and uses modern techniques all the time. Sometimes really blatantly. Mania does this too.
 

Quote

Shovel Knight is a game that embraces the look of NES classics, but has some major differences when examined closely. When setting out to develop the game's aesthetic and play style, we at Yacht Club Games had a few goals in mind. Instead of emulating the NES exactly, we would create a rose-tinted view of an 8-bit game.

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidDAngelo/20140625/219383/Breaking_the_NES_for_Shovel_Knight.php


They're "holding themselves back" to create a distinct feel. An art style. It's a legitimate take and a unique one within this series. I'm kind of surprised people want it to change so badly when it's been so long since we got something like this.
 

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That's the clear divide between something like Shovel Knight and something like Mega Man 9/10, the latter which did the NES look because "lol people liked Mega Man 2 so let's just make sequels to Mega Man 2"

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Just now, Sean said:

That's the clear divide between something like Shovel Knight and something like Mega Man 9/10, the latter which did the NES look because "lol people liked Mega Man 2 so let's just make sequels to Mega Man 2"

I really don't agree there.

Like, a lot of custom assets had to be made for both games, and I think they honestly look really good. 

Again, I'm not opposed to games that don't use the 8-bit style. 7 and 8 didn't, and they were still fine games (though, I have some big issues with 8 that have nothing to do with the graphics). I'm fine with 11 not doing it. But I do hope 10 wasn't the last 8-bit Mega Man game. I'm fine with them mixing things up sometimes, absolutely. 

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The thing is that Shovel Knight was designed to look very impressive and vivid despite its limitations. Mega Man 9/10 grabbed those limitations and refused to adhere to anything else, intentionally making themselves look ancient and outdated. They're not bad-looking but they come off as kitschy in comparison.

I also hold it against Capcom because they were refusing to do anything else with Mega Man at the time.

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23 minutes ago, Dr. Mechanhohoho said:

I mean, with all due respect, Mania didn't have poor execution. Its visuals were praised across the board by critics and fans alike because they looked great.

Same with Shovel Knight, which restricted itself to an 8-bit aesthetic both visually and audibly, and it looked and sounded amazing. In part because it didn't look like a cheap parody of an NES game; It looked like an actual NES game, with tons of work and love poured into it.

Your complaints about poor execution and no clear visual goal are valid, but they easily apply to any style, not just 2D sprites. Any style can look good, and it depends on how much effort is put into it.

This wasn't a complaint against Mania. Mania had a purpose and a goal. This was against all the other "retro styled" games like MM 11 for the sake of "being" there without trying to use aesthetics of it's own time OR improving what they have now.. Mania is different and does both well enough.

 

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1 hour ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Mega Man 11 is just a nostalgic retro game. At least Mania did it with better execution.

I think Mega Man 12 should be full 3D.

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