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Establishing worlds and Consistency


Mountaindewandsprite
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It seems that Sonic Team and SoJ either don't know what to do with the Sonic franchise, or don't what they're doing, period. Seriously, SoJ and Sonic Team doesn't really get that they have created so many plotholes in this franchise that a million rabbits could burrow in them. SoJ and Sonic Team need to get their act together especially after all the promises they made for Sonic Forces, which was mediocre at best. Do we need a reboot, Sega? Do we need to get new developers, Sonic Team? It is kinda sad when the fans create an established world and consistent plot galaxies ahead of Sega and Sonic Team. Here's my thoughts on what's happening now and what could've happened.

Establishing a setting/world: I'm sure that every Sonic fan and their grandmother has heard of Iizuka's "Two Worlds" response when asked about where the games take place. For those who don't know, Iizuka said that there is a human world (Adventure games, ShTH, Unleashed) and an animal world (Generations, Forces, etc.) and the characters some how hop between worlds. Wtf? That only makes things more confusing. Instead of this two worlds thing, they could've said that it takes place on one world where humans and anthros coexist, i.e. Archie comics and Dragonball.

Consistency: This franchise is infamous for having inconsistencies in the plot of each game. For example, in one game, Classic Sonic is Modern Sonic's younger self. In the next game, Classic Sonic is a being from another dimension. The problem is that Sonic Team and Sega find ideas, use them for one game, and then abandon them. I know they are focused on gameplay, but people are actually interested in the story behind things.

 

 

Edited by Mountaindewandsprite
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Generations can't be an animal world either if it has Speed Highway, City Escape, and Rooftop Run in there. Unless all the G.U.N Soldiers and residents of Spagonia are animals now.

The simplest solution of saying that they should co-exist alludes them because it's too simple I guess. Iizuka made the fact that the humans just appeared "out of nowhere" in Adventure sound like an actual issue but it really wasn't. It's not like the Classic games had much of a focus on mingling with the locals. You ran through forests, mountains, expanses of ice, and industrial locations owned by Eggman to save tiny woodland creatures that could serve as stand-ins for Pele the Beloved Dog and Hatsun the Pidgeon if they wanted. The reason most of the people you saw were anthros like Sonic was because those 2 or 3 characters were the playable ones. Eggman was the villain and he happened to be a human. We saw no one else because there wasn't a need to show anyone else.

Thinking about this stuff in a Post-Forces world has made me the most angry and sad about the state of the narrative of the games then it ever has been before. At least, I could reasonably ignore the Colors, Generations, and Lost World stuff because from the get-go I could tell it wasn't going to interest me much. Honestly, I ended up liking what Lost World did with it's individual cutscenes and it's dialogue far more than those other two. But Forces was the first time in a long time where I allowed myself to believe that they might have cared about all that shit again. I won't be able to look back at all my earlier posts highlighting how legitimately hyped I was for the game's story without feeling embarrassed now. It was the first time that's happened since 2008 and it's probably never going to happen again after this. 

I was being patient before. However, they made the ultimate jab to the heart by taking my ultimate, favorite story premise for the series and utilizing it for this uninspired, insipid, waste of space and intensely disappointing mishandling of a good roster of characters and villains.

I'm not being patient anymore though. Skepticism is for 2018 and Beyond, no matter what they show me or how good it looks. 

I'll try and be fair but deep down I'll probably be thinking they'll find some way to fuck it up. The feeling of betrayal runs deep.

 

 

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I actually have a feeling that they will reboot the series once more pretty soon together with the new upcoming movie. I'm pretty sure we will get a game that ties in some how with the new Paramount Picture movie. And if the rumors are true we will probably get a new reboot for the whole adventure era, maybe even the whole modern era. Their also kinda rebooted already the classic era now been an alternative dimension rather than the past selves of the modern characters. 

I can see this also happening with the modern era. Some sort of a new beginning, a fresh start. I'm just not sure if this will benefit the series, because it will not solve the problem. 10 10 years later they will have to start all over again with another reboot. 

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I would love to get more clear lore, but I don't think situation is that bad. Honestly, this 'two world' info was as bad as things went, and it was never said in the game. If Sega just says it's one planet (fill the name for yourself) with humans and furry animals, then I think it's bearable.

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Everything is canon ;)

 

I first heard Aaron Webber say this on stream tongue in cheek and it has stuck with me.  The franchise is very mixed up as to what world the whole thing is set in and its essentially a cartoon so to speak anyway. Plot-holes , inconsistencies ,contradictions all over the place. "Everything is canon" and just looking at it that way really has stopped me from trying to piece it all together.

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On 07/12/2017 at 9:23 PM, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Generations can't be an animal world either if it has Speed Highway, City Escape, and Rooftop Run in there. Unless all the G.U.N Soldiers and residents of Spagonia are animals now.

Remember Generations takes place in a white void and involves time hopping. Some stages were human, some were animal.

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On 8.12.2017 at 5:11 PM, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Is it so hard to use Unleashed already established world? Reuse the humans and update them for all I care. 

 

 

Yes. Because back than the world was filled with humans, now it seems that Sonic World is only inhabited by animal people. Sonic's world is always different from game to game. It depends on what new ideas Sega has in mind. 

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On 08/12/2017 at 11:11 AM, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Is it so hard to use Unleashed already established world? Reuse the humans and update them for all I care. 

 

 

They don't want to be tied down to any one world setting. Which is why the globe changes from game to game. 

Which is.. fair honestly. Think about it, how much could do with the Unleashed real world-esque setting besides real places? Yeah, there could just be a variety of different locations on one planet but then.. that isn't really the "Unleashed established world" is it? 

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Make fictional settings based on those real world settings?

That's what they essentially did with Aquatic Park in Colors, putting a Japanese setting underwater? 

And it's not about being the "Unleashed established world" than it is taking that established world and sticking to it even as they make new places. Not hard to do, and is something damn near every consistent fictional series does.

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3 hours ago, Conquering Slay-bell Storm said:

Make fictional settings based on those real world settings?

That's what they essentially did with Aquatic Park in Colors, putting a Japanese setting underwater? 

And it's not about being the "Unleashed established world" than it is taking that established world and sticking to it even as they make new places. Not hard to do, and is something damn near every consistent fictional series does.

Actually.. what if they have been sticking to the Unleashed world? What if Two Worlds was just a thing back then too? Unleashed was supposedly a soft reboot of sorts, and we've been on the Animal Planet since Colors.

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Write a Sonic equivalent to Hyrule Historia. Sell it and be sure to always keep it in mind for future writers to preserve and tweak with future additions. Perhaps branch the timeline a few times? Split after SA2 and after 06? Perhaps also after S3K? And would it be okay to officially discard Lost World, and include even more story comics for Forces to explain the rest? Form there, you could have several additional games in your new timelines you made, with consequence-free giddy Colors-type games still made alongside more story-driven games?

Include “maps” for each game to show where each stage really took place. 

Or: 

 

Go the D&D Route And make multiple possible settings (e.g. Greyhawk, Mystara, Ravenloft, Planescape, Spelljammer, etc.) And Make one primary setting (I.e. Forgotten Realms) for the series? Maybe even do something akin to MtG and have “Crisis” events on multiple planes of existence. 

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I.. honestly feel that the canon of the Sonic the Hedgehog should not and should never have been complicated enough to need an actual book to explain things. A series bible to know who's who and what's what and what's up, but not an encyclopedia.

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7 hours ago, Razule said:

Remember Generations takes place in a white void and involves time hopping. Some stages were human, some were animal.

No, this still makes no sense to me. Unless both dimensions also have the same time-line associated with them. Does it count as a timeline for all dimensions? Is that why Water Palace is in the 3DS version. Does it count timelines that were erased too since Crisis City was there?

There's a chance there's an explanation for this but I'm not submitting to any of Iizuka's nonsense unless I get a clear one.

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18 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

No, this still makes no sense to me. Unless both dimensions also have the same time-line associated with them. Does it count as a timeline for all dimensions? Is that why Water Palace is in the 3DS version. Does it count timelines that were erased too since Crisis City was there?

There's a chance there's an explanation for this but I'm not submitting to any of Iizuka's nonsense unless I get a clear one.

I mean.. I actually don't think it's that complicated in Generations. It's a literal white void with different locations from the past. The past of another dimension is still the past. 

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1 hour ago, Razule said:

I mean.. I actually don't think it's that complicated in Generations. It's a literal white void with different locations from the past. The past of another dimension is still the past.

So, you've worked off the idea that the dimensions do share the same timeline. That's why it doesn't confuse you.

That doesn't change the fact that it's not something that's been explained. I can't help being confused and thinking it might be something different when so many things about the world don't make any sense and aren't given any clarification. Like not only does Modern Sonic also sometimes take place on a human world and an animal world but also Classic Sonic is a different dimension from Modern Sonic. One of the levels in that game was erased from time. Also, Blaze has dialogue mentioning how she remembers being in Crisis City even though the events of 06 were deleted, which would only make sense if time wasn't affected by being sent to another dimension but if that's the case then the human and animal dimensions both being affected doesn't work.

Either way, it relies on something that the game doesn't tell you in order for it to make sense.

I refuse to do that. Either tell me something that makes sense or I'm just not going to bother with your nonsense. Iizuka can take his headcanon and shove it. 

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1 minute ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

So, you've worked off the idea that the dimensions do share the same timeline. That's why it doesn't confuse you.

That doesn't change the fact that it's not something that's been explained. I can't help being confused and thinking it might be something different when so many things about the world don't make any sense and aren't given any clarification. Like not only does Modern Sonic also sometimes take place on a human world and an animal world but also Classic Sonic is a different dimension from Modern Sonic. One of the levels in that game was erased from time. Also, Blaze has dialogue mentioning how she remembers being in Crisis City even though the events of 06 were deleted, which would only make sense if time wasn't affected by being sent to another dimension but if that's the case then the human and animal dimensions both being affected doesn't work.

Either way, it relies on something that the game doesn't tell you in order for it to make sense.

I refuse to do that. Either tell me something that makes sense or I'm just not going to bother with your nonsense. Iizuka can take his headcanon and shove it. 

Nah, I agree with you. Stories shouldn't have to rely on fan headcanon to make sense. Honestly I just never really thought about it, I think their intention was just "levels from the past" and that's it.

Generations as a whole just doesn't make sense. Didn't make much sense then, makes even less now. 

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1 hour ago, Razule said:

Nah, I agree with you. Stories shouldn't have to rely on fan headcanon to make sense. Honestly I just never really thought about it, I think their intention was just "levels from the past" and that's it.

Generations as a whole just doesn't make sense. Didn't make much sense then, makes even less now. 

Somehow, they'll find a way to have it make even less sense in the future too.

I don't know how but they'll find a way. The drawing board room for Generations probably didn't look the best.

amnesia.jpg

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5 hours ago, Razule said:

Actually.. what if they have been sticking to the Unleashed world? What if Two Worlds was just a thing back then too? Unleashed was supposedly a soft reboot of sorts, and we've been on the Animal Planet since Colors.

Technically, I believe this has been canon since the Sonic X era. Sonic Team did contribute to the production of the show and it was going under the same logic as Takashi Izuka explained in that interview. 

That or they decided to take the idea established in that show as an inspiration. 

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27 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

Technically, I believe this has been canon since the Sonic X era. Sonic Team did contribute to the production of the show and it was going under the same logic as Takashi Izuka explained in that interview. 

That or they decided to take the idea established in that show as an inspiration. 

I.. find it hard to believe they had that in mine during the Adventure era, so I'll just assume the latter.

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2 hours ago, Razule said:

I.. find it hard to believe they had that in mine during the Adventure era, so I'll just assume the latter.

Nothing seems too hard to believe when you consider where the franchise was going at the time. They just began transitioning to Sonic Heroes and wanted to dip their hands into establishing Sonic for a new generation while making sense of why a blue Hedgehog was running around with human society while justifying all the crazy locales he visited. 

Sonic Team probably didn't think it was important to really establish anything in game and so used the show as an outlet for the ideas they were throwing around at the time. A sort of establishment of ground rules. And for all intents and purposes, it doesn't really clash that much with the canon of that soft reboot Adventure era.

After all. It's the most random thing for Izuka to reference nearly a decade after the show ended.

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Soo Angel Island and basically the events of the classic games were all in the human world? It just doesn't add up to whats been said with this two world crap.

I mean you can't say Angel Island is NOT in the human due it falling near Station Square & since Angel Island was in Sonic 3 that means most of the classic games were going on in the human world.

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