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The State of Sonic Team

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I actually still think, that Sonic is one of the more iconic and relevant series in this day and age. I would go so far to say that Sonic is still the second most relevant Jump'n Run character after Mario. Crash and Megaman for example are now again relevant, but you can not tell if their will be relevant for the next 10 years. Maybe both will once again tack a very huge break until their next good game. Than their are series like Kirby and Ratchet & Clank who still get a lot of games and they sell really well but nobody really talks about their games that much. Than we have game series like Sly, Yoshi or DKC who sell really well, but also get only a few games because their are not that much relevant for their companies. Who knows when we get the next big DK and Sly game. And than we have series like Jak & Daxter and Earthworm Jim who died out many years ago.

I do not think that the problem with Sonic is, that he is not relevant anymore. The problem is that he is more of a joke nowadays. A lot of people make fun about Sonic, to the point that a lot of people do remember his bad games more than the good once. I think the only way to save Sonic's reputation is to step down and give the franchise a huge break and only bring out one ore maybe two big games each generation and fill the other missing spots with other game series. Eiter create new IPs or bring old ones back.

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7 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Mania was a good game. it was a nostalgia trip. Noting more than that made by fan that enjoyed the games of the 90s. But say if that is the route they go from now on. Do you expect sales in the millions or for it to become one of those oh heres another 2d sonic game in 4 years. Besides pokemon i can not think of many games hitting millions in the 2d sector anymore.

Making it a nostalgia trip was mostly SEGA/Sonic Team's idea/input, at least when it came to including old stages, from what I heard. We didn't get to see what new things Taxman and the others could come up with (if they have any that is, maybe they talked about this in interviews, I don't know).

Also, 2D games like Mania may not sell millions, but you know what? They would (probably) be good games. I'm not on the corporate side, I'm on the consumer side, I'm not looking at how many millions a game sells, I'm looking at if the game is good or not for my liking. Sonic Mania is a good game, Sonic Team's games are not. While the fancy 3D game with state-of-the-art engine may sell more units, as a consumer I don't give a damn if I find it a crap game.

Call me selfish, but I'd rather have good games that sell fewer units than shit games that sell more just because it's pretty looking.

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4 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Making it a nostalgia trip was mostly SEGA/Sonic Team's idea/input, at least when it came to including old stages, from what I heard. We didn't get to see what new things Taxman and the others could come up with (if they have any that is, maybe they talked about this in interviews, I don't know).

Also, 2D games like Mania may not sell millions, but you know what? They would (probably) be good games. I'm not on the corporate side, I'm on the consumer side, I'm not looking at how many millions a game sells, I'm looking at if the game is good or not for my liking. Sonic Mania is a good game, Sonic Team's games are not. While the fancy 3D game with state-of-the-art engine may sell more units, as a consumer I don't give a damn if I find it a crap game.

Call me selfish, but I'd rather have good games that sell fewer units than shit games that sell more just because it's pretty looking.

While in a non corporate world that sounds nice game sells equal more games. Fewer sales fewer games. Why make a game for just being good if it amounts to no sales.

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6 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

While in a non corporate world that sounds nice game sells equal more games. Fewer sales fewer games. Why make a game for just being good if it amounts to no sales.

All I'm saying is I'd rather choose the less but good games route than the more but shit games route as a consumer. I see no value in supporting a franchise by buying shit games just so the company behind it can live on and continue to make shit games.

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32 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

While in a non corporate world that sounds nice game sells equal more games. Fewer sales fewer games. Why make a game for just being good if it amounts to no sales.

Generally you'll find that "good game" equals "good sales".

2D Sonic probably wouldn't carry the franchises alone, but we've seen what happens when they prioritize quantity over quality. I'm sure they'd love to push out five games a year and squeeze out as much money as they can, but that would be a bad idea.

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5 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Making it a nostalgia trip was mostly SEGA/Sonic Team's idea/input, at least when it came to including old stages, from what I heard. We didn't get to see what new things Taxman and the others could come up with (if they have any that is, maybe they talked about this in interviews, I don't know).

Also, 2D games like Mania may not sell millions, but you know what? They would (probably) be good games. I'm not on the corporate side, I'm on the consumer side, I'm not looking at how many millions a game sells, I'm looking at if the game is good or not for my liking. Sonic Mania is a good game, Sonic Team's games are not. While the fancy 3D game with state-of-the-art engine may sell more units, as a consumer I don't give a damn if I find it a crap game.

Call me selfish, but I'd rather have good games that sell fewer units than shit games that sell more just because it's pretty looking.

I'm not sure if new stages would have been ideal. If most of the new stages just have reused gimmicks and renditions(some not changing much at all) that leaves me to believe that the team wouldn't have had time anyways to create totally new stages.

From what I've read, Iizuka wanted Mania to be 60% old stages.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Making it a nostalgia trip was mostly SEGA/Sonic Team's idea/input, at least when it came to including old stages, from what I heard. We didn't get to see what new things Taxman and the others could come up with (if they have any that is, maybe they talked about this in interviews, I don't know).

The original pitch according to interviews with Whitehead IIRC was to make a Sonic 4 style game with a few original levels. Then Iizuka suggested not only making the planned original levels, but also re-imagining old ones. Think this was at one of the panels? 

If the old stages weren't there, the game just would've been shorter, not replaced with original levels. There's matters of budget and time to consider here. 

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4 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

The original pitch according to interviews with Whitehead IIRC was to make a Sonic 4 style game with a few original levels. Then Iizuka suggested not only making the planned original levels, but also re-imagining old ones. Think this was at one of the panels? 

If the old stages weren't there, the game just would've been shorter, not replaced with original levels. There's matters of budget and time to consider here. 

Even if that's the case, I would still take what Taxman could cook up over anything Sonic Team makes at this point, because they proved it again and again than no matter what they touch (classic 2D or "modern" 3D), it turns to shit.

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2 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Even if that's the case, I would still take what Taxman could cook up over anything Sonic Team makes at this point, because they proved it again and again than no matter what they touch (classic 2D or "modern" 3D), it turns to shit.

Sonic Team never did much with Classic Sonic unless we're speaking of Generations and Forces, which were decent to poor attempts at it(Advance games also had Sonic Team involved, which were well received). Other than that, it was DIMPS that did the Sonic 4 games(from what I understood, it was meant to be "Sonic The Portable").

Quote

they touch (classic 2D or "modern" 3D), it turns to shit.

How many "bad" 3D games are there actually? Not Average leveled but genuine bad ones.

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1 hour ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Sonic Team never did much with Classic Sonic unless we're speaking of Generations and Forces, which were decent to poor attempts at it(Advance games also had Sonic Team involved, which were well received). Other than that, it was DIMPS that did the Sonic 4 games(from what I understood, it was meant to be "Sonic The Portable").

How many "bad" 3D games are there actually? Not Average leveled but genuine bad ones.

2. Lost World and RoL.

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3 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Sonic Team never did much with Classic Sonic unless we're speaking of Generations and Forces, which were decent to poor attempts at it(Advance games also had Sonic Team involved, which were well received). Other than that, it was DIMPS that did the Sonic 4 games(from what I understood, it was meant to be "Sonic The Portable").

How many "bad" 3D games are there actually? Not Average leveled but genuine bad ones.

For me personally, Colors and Generations were bad. I can't remember one stage where I was genuinely like "Yeah, that was awesome, I wanna go over that again!". Maybe it wasn't bad looking at it just as a platform game, but as a Sonic game they were utterly disappointing for me. Boost through narrow sections filled with dash pads, occasionally do some side steps , go on a scripted section, here's some automated rail grinding requiring minimal input, now have some blocky 2D platforming.

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So the NPD results have been released for November and...Sonic Forces is nowhere to be seen. Well, it’s at number 7 in the top 10 best selling Nintendo Switch games, but it’s not on the Xbone and PS4 top 10’s nor the overall top 20.

Umm...doesn’t that mean this game hasn’t done too hot? 

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8 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

So the NPD results have been released for November and...Sonic Forces is nowhere to be seen. Well, it’s at number 7 in the top 10 best selling Nintendo Switch games, but it’s not on the Xbone and PS4 top 10’s nor the overall top 20.

Umm...doesn’t that mean this game hasn’t done too hot? 

The Switch has a more limited library compared to the other consoles since it's only 9 months old, so not surprised Forces did better there.

But yeah not doing very well it seems.

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On 13/12/2017 at 12:38 PM, Razule said:

2D Sonic probably wouldn't carry the franchises alone, 

I wish I could bet, but I still doubt SEGA can learn anything and take the risk of only making 2D games with Taxman and crew. But hypotheticaly, I bet it can. Mania was a digital only game and still had a ton of content, great marketing and an awesome Collector's Editon. The brand needs to gain confidence to motivate the team to create even bigger games/sequels. Good games are good games, 2D or 3D. Where is Sonic's confidence now? The brand's name is back in the mud. It's time to risk. 

Give the people who trully proved they understand and like Sonic control and see what happens. 

I also would like to add that Taxman and crew CAN most likely make an excelent 3D game too, if they want to.

 

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I don't think 2D only games are a permanent solution to sonic's problems but if I'm being honest I do think that a couple of Mania-level games in a row in terms of quality would be wonderful for the franchise. Even though I want a truly excellent 3D sonic game right now, certain changes will have to happen first before we get it and it may take a few years. It would be common sense to boost Sonic''s reputation by making a string of excellent 2D games in the interim. Make even prettier sequels to Mania with all new levels and etc. Definitely a smart move, as opposed to making mediocre reviewed games like Forces that don't sell too well and hurt the brand''s reputation. Do the common sense thing for once.

 

I don't expect SEGA of Japan to do the common sense thing though.

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3 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I don't think 2D only games are a permanent solution to sonic's problems but if I'm being honest I do think that a couple of Mania-level games in a row in terms of quality would be wonderful for the franchise. Even though I want a truly excellent 3D sonic game right now, certain changes will have to happen first before we get it and it may take a few years. It would be common sense to boost Sonic''s reputation by making a string of excellent 2D games in the interim. Make even prettier sequels to Mania with all new levels and etc. Definitely a smart move, as opposed to making mediocre reviewed games like Forces that don't sell too well and hurt the brand''s reputation. Do the common sense thing for once.

 

I don't expect SEGA of Japan to do the common sense thing though.

The franchise can't rely on mission pack sequels to Mania for long, that would eventually start eating away at the brand reputation like what happened with Mega Man.

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26 minutes ago, Slashy said:

The franchise can't rely on mission pack sequels to Mania for long, that would eventually start eating away at the brand reputation like what happened with Mega Man.

What did I just say though? "Not a permanent solution" and "couple games in a row". Why would you even talk about "eventually"?

Eventually, while this is happening,  a phenomenal 3D Sonic game would be released as a flagship. That's the point. Stop putting out mediocre games. Put out high quality titles like Mania and develop a big 3D title in the background. Mania-like games don't take as many resources and are very profitable (and help the brand enormously) so a team can focus in the background on the big 3D title and truly nail it. That is the point. 

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On 12/14/2017 at 5:04 PM, Gabz Girl said:

So the NPD results have been released for November and...Sonic Forces is nowhere to be seen. Well, it’s at number 7 in the top 10 best selling Nintendo Switch games, but it’s not on the Xbone and PS4 top 10’s nor the overall top 20.

Umm...doesn’t that mean this game hasn’t done too hot? 

Do you have a link?

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That ResetEra post is really badly researched and is wrong. There is little to no crossover between Nintendo and Sega staff...it is either coincidence with people of the same name or minor contracted workers (which are often at the bottom of lists, or from sub companies.)

I mean there are artists and programmers mentioned in the post. But as far as credits in Forces go, those sort of developers are well experienced that have worked on well loved Sonic games.

In the end, we don't know the factors that made this and that game bad. 

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