The State of Sonic Team

[Swing]

It would be really a shame if Sonic Forces will not sale more copies than the Crash Bandicoot: N. Sane Trilogy. Because Crash is a PS4 exclusive game while Sonic Forces comes out on 4 different consoles.

If Crash can sale over 2 Mio copies on only one console while Sonic Forces can not do this on 4 consoles combined than this is really a really bad sign for the franchise in a whole.    

[pppp]

1 hour ago, Swing said:

It would be really a shame if Sonic Forces will not sale more copies than the Crash Bandicoot: N. Sane Trilogy. Because Crash is a PS4 exclusive game while Sonic Forces comes out on 4 different consoles.

If Crash can sale over 2 Mio copies on only one console while Sonic Forces can not do this on 4 consoles combined than this is really a really bad sign for the franchise in a whole.    

Maybe if SEGA bothered to not be fucking idiots and market the game better they could have gotten some good early sales. But then they refused to give review copies, which alerted people that something was up and now that reviews by critics and fans exposed the game for the soulless mess that it is, no one is buying it cause there are far better games out there that are much more worthy of people's money.

[CrashRatchetFan]

11 hours ago, Swing said:

It would be really a shame if Sonic Forces will not sale more copies than the Crash Bandicoot: N. Sane Trilogy. Because Crash is a PS4 exclusive game while Sonic Forces comes out on 4 different consoles.

If Crash can sale over 2 Mio copies on only one console while Sonic Forces can not do this on 4 consoles combined than this is really a really bad sign for the franchise in a whole.    

Well to be fair a lot more hype was surrounding Crash’s big comeback more so than Forces since it was a remake of his first three critically praised adventures plus Crash wasn’t seen in nearly a decade. I really haven’t kept track of Forces but I’ve saw very little pre-release besides the gameplay previews and such and the response was lukewarm to say the least. 

It may sound bias (my username and such) but to say N. Sane was anticipated is an understatement. The game practically sold out almost everywhere around the globe in its initial launch. 

[Tarnish]

10 hours ago, Swing said:

It would be really a shame if Sonic Forces will not sale more copies than the Crash Bandicoot: N. Sane Trilogy. Because Crash is a PS4 exclusive game while Sonic Forces comes out on 4 different consoles.

A crap game that's not worth buying is a crap game that's not worth buying no matter how many platforms it's on.

[Gabz Girl]

Deep down, I had a feeling Sonic Forces wasn’t going to sell that well. Yes it’s a multiplat unlike Sonic Lost World and it could get a boost in Christmas sales, but there are too many other more popular games around at this time of the year and better platformers like Super Mario Odyssey and Crash N-Sane Trilogy.

Of course those two had a lot of hype and are selling like hot cakes! They were marketed really well and actually had reviews (good ones) before release, unlike Sonic Forces which didn’t really start advertising until a week or so before release and the review codes not being sent out was a bloody pathetic move on Sega’s part. 

I wonder when we’ll know the exact sales numbers. Probably not for a long while, but I’m very curious either way. Could it outsell Mania or...not? O_O

Oh and off topic, but where the hell is the Super Sonic DLC??

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

10 hours ago, Swing said:

It would be really a shame if Sonic Forces will not sale more copies than the Crash Bandicoot: N. Sane Trilogy. Because Crash is a PS4 exclusive game while Sonic Forces comes out on 4 different consoles.

If Crash can sale over 2 Mio copies on only one console while Sonic Forces can not do this on 4 consoles combined than this is really a really bad sign for the franchise in a whole.    

Mania sold very well, so Sonic's sales potential still has plenty of legs.

The problem is that compared to so many other games released this season, Forces was absolute sh*t. Flagship games can't be sh*t if they want to seriously compete on the market during the biggest season of the year.

An even bigger problem is that both SEGA and Sonic Team seem to be completely confused by this. The fact that both Mania and Forces were released in the same calendar year, with the latter being the big game with intent on making Sonic a global brand again, is indicative of how deep this issue goes.

 

I have never been less hopeful and more dissatisfied with SEGA and Sonic Team proper than I am at the moment. The literal, singular thing that keeps me around at the moment is that I desperately need to know the fate of Team Mania. If they're given a promotion and there are clear signs of a change in direction coming (I.E. away from the Modern Sonic bullsh*t the videogame world has been plagued with since 2001) then my dedication and passion will be refueled. If there is no such change and they continue ahead with the B.S., I'm out. I love Sonic.... and because I do I'm not going to subject myself to utter crap when there is a clear possibility for change and a new beginning right now. Before Mania, we weren't sure if it would ever happen. After Mania, we know it can....but only if the company makes the common sense move and takes out all the trash in bad ideas and personnel.

[Tarnish]

13 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

Oh and off topic, but where the hell is the Super Sonic DLC??

An honest question: what is the point of Super Sonic in the boost games? Normal Sonic is already pretty much invincible due to boosting, being Super Sonic doesn't help against bottomless pits which is the main reason for dieing in "modern" Sonic games, so...isn't he reduced pretty much to just a different skin instead of actual gameplay difference?

[Blacklightning]

18 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

An honest question: what is the point of Super Sonic in the boost games? Normal Sonic is already pretty much invincible due to boosting, being Super Sonic doesn't help against bottomless pits which is the main reason for dieing in "modern" Sonic games, so...isn't he reduced pretty much to just a different skin instead of actual gameplay difference?

Super Sonic could fly by boosting in Generations. The increased ring drain in Gens made it kind of a dubious pick much of the time, but you could skip huge chunks of level at a time if you knew when and where to use it. The level design in Forces is even more linear than that, so it's not hard to imagine that being totally broken.

[Jango]

12 hours ago, Swing said:

It would be really a shame if Sonic Forces will not sale more copies than the Crash Bandicoot: N. Sane Trilogy. Because Crash is a PS4 exclusive game while Sonic Forces comes out on 4 different consoles.

If Crash can sale over 2 Mio copies on only one console while Sonic Forces can not do this on 4 consoles combined than this is really a really bad sign for the franchise in a whole.    

Don't you dare compare the N-Sane Trilogy with this garbage.

[Almar]

Sonic Team might have overestimated how respected 3D Sonic is.

[Tornado]

I think if Sonic Mania had sold well (not "so fantastic that it is commented on in Sega's financial statements", but merely "well") there would be much more danger in Sega looking at Forces' market impact and saying "well, maybe it didn't sell well because of 'x' reason". You could have plugged in whatever the reason is, and I'm sure Sega of Japan could have come up with some truly outlandishly stupid ones that all pointed the blame at someone else as they have never failed to do in the past.

"Well, Sega of America didn't market it properly" which would have led to SoJ more actively meddling in the Western branch again to do it properly; or "Sonic Mania really cannibalized the sales of the flagship game through too much market saturation", which would have made them cancel any further development to keep from harming the next 3D game; or even "Sonic Boom still being on TV really harmed the ability to tell a serious story in a real game" which would have made them start actively meddling in everything with the Sonic branding. None of that would be terribly out of line, even. But because Mania did do so well, and Forces did seem to do so bad, I don't think SoJ would really be able to just write it off this time as something they can't understand.

 

 

Now, what that actually means for the future, I don't know. They could just take it to mean "well, that means that 2D is what everyone wants, so... Iizuka, get to work on a 2D game again with Dimps," which obviously isn't ideal; but I think Forces versus Mania might have finally been the thing needed to snap them out of the mentality of "this didn't work, so let's double down on it because this time it will because we've changed some other stuff that we blamed for it not working" that they've fought off and on for over a decade now.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

Now, what that actually means for the future, I don't know. They could just take it to mean "well, that means that 2D is what everyone wants, so... Iizuka, get to work on a 2D game again with Dimps

Oh good lord, I almost just vomited thinking about that. Because in the past it is exactly what I think would happen.

The saving grace in this situation, ironically, is that SEGA and Sonic Team have f*cked up so many times now in a staggering variety of ways, that they have about exhausted the possibilities in areas where they could screw the next move up. I don't think even they could fathom asking DIMPS to do what Whitehead and Thomley did with Mania for hypothetical sequel. As silly as they are, I can't see it. They do not believe that vastly different Sonic 4 and Sonic Mania are projects handled without respect to the developer.

The only way the proper people are not rewarded here is by politics and jealousy because some pride has been smacked up. That I do see as a remaining possibility and its why I wait. Any other company I can imagine, would have already began serious discussions about how to upgrade the parties responsible for success.  

[Swing]

6 hours ago, Jango said:

Don't you dare compare the N-Sane Trilogy with this garbage.

Sorry, dude. But Crash Bandicoot is at the moment the closest thing to compare Sonic Forces.

[Tarnish]

5 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

SEGA and Sonic Team have f*cked up so many times now in a staggering variety of ways, that they have about exhausted the possibilities in areas where they could screw the next move up.

SEGA/Sonic Team: "You underestimate my power!"

[speedfreak]

4 hours ago, Tarnish said:

SEGA/Sonic Team: "You underestimate my power!"

Do we the fans have the high ground though? As long as we have the high ground we good.

[Jango]

7 hours ago, Swing said:

Sorry, dude. But Crash Bandicoot is at the moment the closest thing to compare Sonic Forces.

I think the closest thing to compare with Forces is the new Bubsy.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, SaberX said:

Now I'm really curious. Why you think so?

They are both 3D Platformers released for struggling brands. Crash is at a huge disadvantage with being a console exclusive. Sonic should have by all means outsold Crash, but it's clear now that didn't happen. That's pretty terrible on Sonic's part.

Both Mania and Crash dumping on Sonic Forces should be an indicator to Sega how important word of mouth is. Quality matters for Sonic now far more than it did 10 years ago. All the bad games they released have caught up to them.

The onlu way out of this rut is to release quality games. Throwing out gimmicks and bait to hook people isn't going to work anymore.

[Swing]

4 hours ago, SaberX said:

Now I'm really curious. Why you think so?

- Both series feature an anthropomorphic animal character as a mascot for a specific company. Sonic = Sega, Crash = Playstation.

- Both series hit at one point rock bottom at one point in their life spam and had to climb again.

- Both series are kinda rivals towards Nintendo's Mario.

[Milo]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

They are both 3D Platformers released for struggling brands. Crash is at a huge disadvantage with being a console exclusive. Sonic should have by all means outsold Crash, but it's clear now that didn't happen. That's pretty terrible on Sonic's part.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Platform exclusivity isn't always a weakness, nor is a multiplatform release always a strength.  Crash has been multiplatform for years, yet his most popular games (in both reviews and sales) are exclusively tied to the original PlayStation trilogy. N-Sane's success is arguably an example of Crash (re-)tapping into the brand synergy the series originally had with the PlayStation platform and its audience--it not only sold well right out the gate, N-Sane is now the best-selling game in the series after the PS1 era of ND games.

Platform/console exclusivity also allows you to save resources in regards to how many platforms a developer and publisher will have to develop, market, and release a game on. So even if Forces hypothetically was able to match N-Sane's 2.5M sales in the span of three months, N-Sane would likely have the higher profit margins due to N-Sane's production scope pooled towards only the PS4; compared to Forces spread out across the PS4, Xbox One, Switch, and PC.

[Jango]

And yet Mania probably sold as much as Crash, I think. 

It's funny to think there's a good Sonic and a bad Sonic. 

I think this should've mean something to SEGA...

BTW, I was messing around about the Crash comparison, I can see where @Swing came from. Still, Crash was a remake of 3 games from the 90's. These three games were remade FROM SCRATCH in just a 1 year and a half. While Sonic Forces in 4 years of development cycle had: 3 unpolished gameplays, blandest level design in a Sonic game, questionable story and a bunch of recycled stuff. But I've said in this same forum I wouldn't talk about Forces anymore, so take it as my last ultra combo finish: Sonic Forces is bad, and Crash has all the rights to outsell it. Sonic Forces has all the rights to fail.

[Jango]

Taxman and crew have all the rights to jump ship if SEGA's input goes against the level of quality or content they wanna deliver. These are not mere fans making a internship at SEGA, these are professionals. It makes me sick when people say "a bunch of fans did a better job than the professionals at Sonic Team". It's the fact that they're are fans that makes than better professionals.

I'm pretty sure if a sequel is pitched, Taxman and crew will want ALL original levels and more dev time. Or at least more than a 1/3.

[McGroose]

Just now, SaberX said:

Well spoken.

The irony is that people call Mania a "fan made game". And that same game did beter than their precious Forces.

There are at least 8 fan games I can think of right now that I enjoy far more than a large portion of Sega's Sonic games. Mania being called a "fan made game" doesn't tell me anything new in terms of quality, which is pathetic on Sega's end.

[Nicky Nicardo]

Are there any people on this site who don't have a fiery burning hatred for Sega and Sonic Team? X_X

[McGroose]

Just now, FriesWithoutKetchup said:

Are there any people on this site who don't have a fiery burning hatred for Sega and Sonic Team? X_X

I love Sega! Sega is getting better (I think). It's Sonic Team that's blubbering up by constantly repeating mistakes and giving out false hope of quality.

[Dee Dude]

1 hour ago, FriesWithoutKetchup said:

Are there any people on this site who don't have a fiery burning hatred for Sega and Sonic Team? X_X

I mean, I understand the negativity and dislike for them can get really annoying considering they’re not even that bad as people make them out to be but I understand many’s frustration to their complicated direction.

As Deji said at the first page, I think the real problem with them is management rather then talent, they’re a professional company. They have the skills to make something really good but with the people they’re working under for make really dumb decisions such as level designers being newbies, Generations designers going to M&S games etc.

So yeah, I liked Forces despite it’s flaws and wasted opportunities but these guys really need to focus on what they did wrong and improve on what to do right.

Other than that, I don’t necessarily despise them and look forward to any future games from them.