Sonic Forces sells an estimated 234,000 units worldwide in the first week at retail.

[BlueSky]

Oh, that brought to my mind a fun thing; in here, I could argue that those PS game series mentioned (Sly, Ratchet & Clank) could very well have more vocal fanbases in some places than Sonic has.

But to the topic, I think I get the fact some don't think Forces had enough effort in it for what it showed to us. In some aspects I think I'll prolly have to disagree with that. But it's okay to ask for different games I think, even when I myself think Forces was a bit shaky step towards a direction I'd prolly like.

The thing is, in here people have already spoken up their mind about how they feel others pretty much shout to their faces they want Forces to suck on sales so that they'd get better(/different) kind of Sonic games thus feel violated. This thing goes heated from other side to the other, and it's kind of funny how talk about sales can transform into a punching bag. Kinda funny really.

But I dunno, Mania keeps hanging in the Switch charts so I suppose it's done better on that side. Though I dunno, I don't think I'd buy mindlessly each and every Sonic game, I have no interests for performances like that, even when I find Forces enjoyable enough. Some people might buy everything and anything for the fear of losing it all/ something else but generalisation's not too good of a way to make a point, I've learned.

When it comes to the Archie Sonic comics though, I suppose I can stretch my line a bit, mostly because I'm interested enough and reading comics isn't limited by game progress percentage, I get my fix easier that way.

Ultimately I'd like Sonic games get some steps more into the direction I enjoy but that's just me. It's already a lot for me they took their environment seriously enough for not making meme-jokes all the time and considering themselves trough a hole in the 4th wall or something like in the games before.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 hour ago, Swing said:

I'm sorry, but it really seems at this point that fans just worship Sonic. They do not want a fun game or a good game. They just Sonic and that seems to be enough. 

I actually had fun with Forces, enough to go through two runs and platinum it in fact, and even I see all of the lost potential, misfires and more. Trying to imply you can't find fun in a flawed product, or even worse, trying to imply we'll accept any shit that falls in our lap for enjoying a game you might not enjoy isn't really fair and in turn makes your point look worse because your counterargument is just saying "well, they'll accept any trash!" instead of legitimately countering arguments for why people might find fun with Forces. 

Should Forces fans flip that argument back around to detractors by simply saying "oh well what you want is never enough and no matter what, SEGA never does anything right for you!". Of course not, that's an unfair generalization that intentionally attempts to ignore the legitimate arguments and criticisms of the game, the same way your argument attempts to ignore any fair merits of Forces and any fun factor it might have to people (which there are quite a few on SSMB). Attempting to strawman the argument in favor of Forces as "they'll accept any shit thrown onto their plate" isn't a good argument. 

[knuckles20]

2 hours ago, Swing said:

If this is really the case than this will be really sad. Just shows that Sonic fans will just except anything if it has to do with Sonic. 

Considering I haven't bought a game since Generations (not counting mobile) and being disappointed with what they were doing with Forces(classic Sonic, 2.5D, favorite characters treated like wallpaper), I can tell you that's hardly true. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 hours ago, Swing said:

Okay, sure. I mean I know people from another Sonic forum who see Sonic 06 as a 9/10.

Whatever their reasons be, fine. So long as they aren't insulting others in doing so, I don't really see the point in harping on it unless you're actually going to get down in there and properly debate them rather than just lambasting them from on high. :U

 

3 hours ago, Swing said:

But we can all agree here, that Forces could have been better and such loyal fans like you guys just deserve a better game from them.

Well, that's the thing. We can't even all agree on that. Some wish for more, some liked what they got, many hope for more things like it, and vice versa, etc.

Me personally, I'm in the camp that actually had a blast with the game, but I acknowledge its many flaws. Do I have much reason to feel bummed out with the series? Personally no. Do I agree some things could or need to be improved? Absolutely. But that kind of stuff goes without saying.

There's no need to assume that people who speak positively about the game don't see flaws with it.

[Almar]

Attention:

1. In a world where games like the ones in Persona's series hit the millions without needing 4 consoles, Sonic needing 4 just to reach a million is not at all impressive for how legendary he is (or was).

2. It's obvious that Sonic Mania, at worst, sold around how Forces did. And keep in mind, it didn't have Forces budget and edgy advertising.

They might not openly admit it, but hopefully they'll learn SOMETHING from this game and Mania. They might botch it, but still. It sold AND reviewed too well compared to Forces to just be ignored, Japanese pride or not. Besides, Sonic's been estranged from daddy Sega of Japan for years and they've more or less written off Sonic as a Western franchise at this point. Mania was some gajin newbies' attempt at a Sonic game and it apparently rivaled the best Iizuka Company can do. Even during the inbetween period of Mania's release and Forces' release Nakamura was talking about how shocking Mania's reception was and how they'd look into that in the future.

 

[Milo]

11 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

This might be the worst concession I've ever read.

It's that kind of mentality that lets the Simpsons continue on for 20+ seasons well after it lost its luster.

And judging by how the Sonic Mania special stage plays, they're at the very least better than Sonic Team at making a high speed 3D experience.

Something we need to immediately divorce away from this discussion is the implication that Sonic receiving more "bad" games would happen entirely in a vacuum. That future games that are poorly received doesn't have a knock-on effect on how later entries review and sell. That what merits the series are praised for aren't forgotten in favor of denouncing its demerits its committed over time. That genuine interest for Sonic as a series from people outside and even within the fanbase alike isn't soured at best, outright diminished at worst.

No. That's not how reality works.

People can talk about Mania as one of the best games of 2017 and clamor for a followup today; yet back when Rise of Lyric was fresh on everyone's minds not even two years ago, the "Sonic was never good" myth was still as strong as ever (if not even more pervasive since the series did literally have another 2006-tier disaster of a game). Does anyone seriously think Sonic today would have some of the renewed goodwill it currently has now, if Mania didn't exist and Forces was the only game released last year?

...

I rest my case.

[Shadowlax]

12 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

This might be the worst concession I've ever read.

It's that kind of mentality that lets the Simpsons continue on for 20+ seasons well after it lost its luster.

This is some of the most condescending shit I have ever read on this site. You bugging b, you need to calm down. 

12 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

And judging by how the Sonic Mania special stage plays, they're at the very least better than Sonic Team at making a high speed 3D experience.

looks around

Oh word we forgot sonic generations exist

Ok shit, we just hyperbole boys today huh

[Nicky Nicardo]

I REALLY wish we had some hard numbers. Forces 'performing well' or 'performing strongly' could mean so many different things. Personally, I'm quite happy about it doing well... but even so, knowing exactly where it stands compared to Mania or even other 2017 release titles would be really nice.

[EvanUn0]

It's another day at the SSMB forums, huh?

I mean, I'm glad Forces sold well but I can kinda see why people think it could be detrimental.

I'm more on the side of "sales doesn't automatically mean they'll continue to do X or Y". 

Also, please play nice.

[molul]

If Sonic Forces' sales were remarkable, Sega would have made an announcement, like they did when Sonic Mania had those Metacritic scores. I think they've been just acceptable, and I'm pretty positive Mania has sold way more (though the price difference is to be taken into account).

[Kuzu]

Sonic games have a lot of brand power, and are popular with a younger demographic so Forces doing well doesn't surprise me.

Of course, it'll probably mean will believe that means Forces is the "correct" path for the series.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

27 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Of course, it'll probably mean will believe that means Forces is the "correct" path for the series.

In some regards as even some critics have said, it did take quite a few steps in the right direction. Not all of them,  but quite a few nonetheless. 

[Tornado]

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

This is some of the most condescending shit I have ever read on this site.

???

 

Quote

looks around

Oh word we forgot sonic generations exist

Ok shit, we just hyperbole boys today huh

Regardless of whether the Mania development team's game design credentials can be so easily transferred to a game in what is essentially a different genre, it is pretty easy to forget the competence of game developers when you have to bring up a game that is going to be seven years old to prove its existence.

[Blue Blood]

7 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Oh word we forgot sonic generations exist

Ok shit, we just hyperbole boys today huh

Generations wasn't that amazing. It was solid, but still relies on scripting to hide an often unsuitable and unoptimised engine as well as being incredibly short. 3D controls in the game still weren't very good, and the majority of it was actually played out in 2D (some of the 3D sections were basically 2D). It's the sort of game that should have signalled a positive change for what Sonic Team can output, but instead time has proven it to be the best that Sonic Team are capable of. 

[Almar]

55 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Sonic games have a lot of brand power, and are popular with a younger demographic so Forces doing well doesn't surprise me.

Expanded Universe and memes maybe, but the games themselves? I doubt that. Sonic Forces tried damn hard to coast by on nostalgia for 3D Sonic instead of Genesis Sonic and from all evidence didn't do so hot by the standards of both its series and gaming by large. If anything, Sonic Team can't figure out whether they should try to focus on making a brand new audience or just hope they can glide by on their past fandom.

[TheOcelot]

Aaron just confirmed in today's live stream that Forces has sold well (as per SEGA Sammy's recent financial report)...

[TheOcelot]

Nope, no figures.

Maybe we'll get an idea of numbers at SXSW.

[Splash the Otter]

Has anyone considered that Forces and Mania could both end up influencing the series equally? I don't see why it has to be one or the other.

[Nicky Nicardo]

2 hours ago, ElectroKyurem said:

Has anyone considered that Forces and Mania could both end up influencing the series equally? I don't see why it has to be one or the other.

I think that would be a good idea. If they could take what worked from both games, and leave behind the stuff that didn't work (according to the general consensus), I think that would make the most amount of people happy with the next release.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

All they learned from Sonic Generations being well received is "People like Green hill zone and Classic Sonic", none of level design, focus in vision, interactive usage of setpieces etcetera etcetera.
So I find it hard to care which game will win out Sega/ Sonic Team's favor in figuring out the future.
Chances are they'll get an entirely diffrent conclusion out of them then we want them.


This is especailly frustrating with Sonic Forces, as people who like Forces tend to Love the concepts and direction, but don't tend to like the execution.
It's a complete crapshoot if Sonic Forces' (Potential) Succes will encourage them to give the concepts a second chance with a richer executed game, or if they'll consider it a victory for lazy game and story design.


I suppose that's at least an advantage that Sonic Mania has, EVERY freaking Modern Sonic game has the same Meta worship of Classic Sonic imagary shoved up it's butt, so if Mania does better then the others, they'll have to look closer to the actual execution of the game.
But then again, Sega come across to me as in just looking for shiny "instant succes" magic gimmicks. Just dangle Shadow the hedgehog and Green Hill Zone in people's faces, no matter how superficial and cynically they're implanted in the game.
So chances are all a Sonic Mania succes will do is them just aggresively pushing for Pixel art in all future games, but not much else.

But that's just me being cynical.
One ray of hope I got is that Sonic Critism as become more well defined today.
So at least they should be getting more specific feedback this time around.
Problem with feedback from past games was that they were only relevant for that specific period in time
(Yay, no more Sonic friends, yay no more Werehog, yay Classic Sonic returns after he got the shaft in Sonic 4!)
but have become outdated since. Forces feedback contains a lot more general hard critism that'll stay relevant.
 

[Meta77]

One  reason forces did well I assume is the avatar.  people had fun with that. If they expand greatly on avi custom options it be nice.  leave classic out and no tag team stages

[Gabz Girl]

I’m...very surprised. If Sonic Forces did indeed sell well, I wonder just how well. Because looking at the sales charts and Steam it doesn’t seem to be that great. But what do I know? 

Then again, didn’t they say back in the day that Sonic 06 “performed strongly” yet it sold less than a million? Hmm, could be a similar situation here. 

[Meta77]

What's strong depends on who wants to call it that. What sets a million as strong. I doubt senran kagura or shantae hit those numbers but they sell well according to the companies

[BaronGrackle]

7 hours ago, Meta77 said:

One  reason forces did well I assume is the avatar.  people had fun with that. If they expand greatly on avi custom options it be nice.  leave classic out and no tag team stages

If SEGA tries something new with the avatar concept, and if they forget about "Classic Sonic" returning in future 3D titles as a separate character, then I'll say they've learned something.

[Meta77]

31 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

If SEGA tries something new with the avatar concept, and if they forget about "Classic Sonic" returning in future 3D titles as a separate character, then I'll say they've learned something.

Sega  learn? Something? The day they make a good 3d game again I'll flip a table.