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Sonic Forces sells an estimated 234,000 units worldwide in the first week at retail.


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10 hours ago, Space☆Yeow said:

Said it many times already, but Sonic 2006 actually sold poorly, contrary to popular belief. Go check Sega's official IR reports; it only sold 870K in its first six months. Maybe it did get to one million at some point, but it didn't sell well enough / fast enough to reach that milestone on later reports from the publisher.

As for the questions about wanting the game to fail in sales or not--my stance on the subject is the same as it was when someone brought up the subject some months back. I'm not craving for the game to flop, but I have zero interest in giving it my support or any desire in seeing it perform well. I consider Forces to be a subpar game filled with dreadful design decisions, crude craftsmanship, and ill-advised ideas. Forces being a success would naturally send a message to Sega / Sonic Team of making more games like it, which is something I personally wouldn't want and think would be a net negative for future games. As far as I'm concerned, Forces needs to perform in a way that doesn't bring it success--and if that means it has to outright fail for that outcome, then that's honestly fine with me.

And on the subject about supporting Sonic games to ensure the future of the series: people can warn about the dangers of Sonic going away if even the most aggressively average or painfully poor games in the series aren't sales hits, but the truth of the matter is that nobody is married to Sonic. The buck stops at Sega and Sonic Team, its their job to (consistently) create quality games that meet the market's needs, it's their business to (consistently) produce products that consumers want to buy (and note that when I refer to the market and consumers, I'm referring to people outside the series' diehard fans, who are more-or-less conditioned to spend their money on virtually any Sonic product Sega serves up). If they don't want to do that and the consequence is Sonic is no longer a commercially viable series to continue making games for, then that is Sega and Sonic Team's loss, not the market's loss. There are other games (in other series) available from other studios/publishers that are superior in quality and cost just as much, if not less. The market isn't entitled to buy Sonic games.

1) I consider Forces to be a showcase of ripping off the ideas from all the previous titles without clearly understanding their purpose.

More or less - tag team stages are a clear rip-off of Sonic Heroes... with Double/Triple Boost being also far too similar to the Team Blast in a way.

Classic Stages - inspiration taken from Sonic Generations (Green Hill, Chemical Plant), Sonic 2 (Casino Forest), Sonic 1/CD (Iron Fortress), 3&K (Death Egg). Done far cheaper than those with less and badly placed gimmicks. Overdose of the classic level ending with a hazard to be passed inspired by Sonic 4 (again done at par or worse than there). Ghost Town has a nice background and maybe one of the best level designs in SF, but I rather play Planetary Panic in Sonic Time Twisted. 

Bonus: Classic Stages were well crafted in Sonic Generations, sometimes they gave a headache as it wasn´t simply straight run from A to B as in Forces.

Modern Stages - 2D/3D inspired by all previous Boost games. 2D overabundent and the transitions are done 1) too often, 2) after a moment taken from the previous boost games (e.g. those 3 robots in Egg Gate are the only 3D sections with a tad bit of platforming), Mortar Canyon is fully 3D and still is too short and straightforward especially when you don´t seek the alternate routes by yourself).

 

Sonic Generations is therefore still of the best attempts of Boost gameplay up-to-date. I said it before that I had bought Generations for €4. Therefore you can find out how much Forces are worth to me and why I won´t buy it like ever. ---> 2) Maybe I am not a diehard fan :D But, wait a minute. I have played Classics, Heroes, Generations and a bit of Adventure 1.

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While everyone else is busy discussing the merits of Sonic Forces possibly failing financially, I'll be over here waiting for Sega to finally release an official estimate of Sonic Mania's sales figures.

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I get that its a digital product and that's much more difficult to get information for, but five months post-release you'd think we'd get more than just us speculating about it. As for Sonic Forces, its sales are likely to be just as mediocre as the game itself. I think the general gaming public has long since caught on to what a gamble this franchise can be if the figures for actually great titles like Generations are any indication.

If it takes Sonic going from a mainstream franchise to a niche one due to poor sales figures to force Sega to put more effort into making great games, then so be it. But I'd still like to see something regarding Mania's profitability at least, if only to get some degree of hope that Sega can also see the positive trend that results from putting passion and effort into making Sonic games again.

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Digital sales are much easier for publishers to keep track of than retail sales. The only thing publishers can reliably get retail data for is sell-in; and everything beyond that is only estimates that are usually tabulated from market research firms like NPD for internal financial reports. Digital sales are (more or less) automatically sell-through.

 

The distinction is particularly important for games released right before the holiday rush, since just because a company dumps a shitload of copies onto store shelves doesn't mean they are going to end up in the hands of the consumer; nevermind the price required for the game to get the consumer to take the plunge. Forces probably isn't as bad as some other games of 201 (Gran Turismo Sport is probably the biggest example of the year of sell-through not approaching sell-in), but the discounted price from the start probably had something to do with that and that does affect Sega's bottom line.

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@Mad Convoy I read your post responding to Swing, and frankly I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill - reacting negatively to "implications" that I don't think necessarily exist except in your own head.

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But what if we think that Forces does have things worth praising and refining, and want those things in the future? If people can think that way about Adventure or Unleashed styled games than they can certainly think that way about Forces.

This is basically saying "Some people have a different opinion about Forces than you." Well, obviously. I don't really think this is up for debate. This seems reminiscent of a problem I've seen not too rarely online, which is people thinking that someone expressing their opinion is somehow assuming and/or demanding that everyone else concedes to that opinion. Just because someone says something is bad doesn't mean that they're unaware that people who think it's good (or has good aspects, or whatever) exist, or that those people are wrong and must change their opinion.

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Or for that matter, what if people buy it because they actually enjoy it? Are we not supposed to play and support things we like just because some people have declared it bad? If so, would you be willing to follow that and discard Sonic and the Black Knight even though you like that game? How about you guys who like Sonic Lost World? Or Sonic Adventure DX? I mean, the inverse is true-- you shouldn't play and buy things that you don't like out of a misplaced sense of loyalty. But that absolutely doesn't mean that people who do play and buy things they like only because of some misplaced sense of loyalty, or people who decide to purchase it don't think that Sonic can do better or don't want Sonic games that are good. That's laughably reductive at best.

You seem to take Swing's general statement of Forces failing being advantageous as a demand for individuals to not buy the game, even if they like it. This is nowhere in his post. Saying "I think it will be a good thing if this game doesn't sell many copies" does NOT automatically lead to "No one should buy this game, even if they like it". Those two statements aren't even very similar. Your logical chain contains a fairly large gap here.

The way you continue with your post just makes your overly negative interpretation of Swing's argument more egregious:

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This kinda ties back to what I was saying earlier about people ordering fans to return or not buy Forces. Of course that usually doesn't get directly said, but think of the implications of what you've said here. If Forces, theoretically, does well, then it'll become the new standard and so Sonic will never get better or any good games. Therefore, if you buy Forces, you don't want Sonic to improve, you don't want good Sonic games, and you perhaps don't even have a good idea of what a good Sonic game is. Its not directly stated, but its pretty hard not to take it as "If you buy Forces for any reason then you bear responsibility for any fuckups that happen in the future, and also have aptly demonstrated that you have bad taste." Its hard not to feel insulted even if that wasn't the intent, not to mention blamed for something that the consumer can't control or change. For that matter, its easy to flip it and say that if you don't buy Forces and the next game is terrible, then you bear partial responsibility for the fuckups because you didn't appreciate and support a better product when you had the chance. Sounds ridiculous because you had no control over how Sega or anybody else responsible for Sonic chooses to react to Forces for the future games? Good. It is. The people buying Forces also have no control over how Sega or anybody else responsible for Sonic chooses to react, so they're about as responsible as you for whatever Sega, Sonic Team, whoever does next in terms of concepts and quality.

Yes, but...Swing did not say any of this stuff. You are being way too sensitive and taking this overly personally. You are going so overboard in responding to far-reaching "implications" that I don't think would even exist under most normal interpretations of that post, and even if they do exist, are very unlikely to be intentional. Swing's post was a pretty innocent one and I highly doubt he meant to imply half of the things you've listed here.

I appreciate your efforts to bring an understanding tone to the boards, but interpreting someone's argument in the worst possible way is not a good habit in discussion and severely undercuts any benefit you're trying to bring to the forum's atmosphere. I'm not saying doing so was intentional or malicious, not at all. But it can't be chalked up to just being a chance misunderstanding that you hold no culpability for. It seems very clear to me that you're allowing your bad past experiences to taint how you interpret anyone's arguments. I'm not trying to not be understanding of where you're coming from, because I'm truly sorry you had to deal with all of that junk from overzealous jerks who genuinely wanted to quash any opinions that disagreed with their own, and it's obviously not your fault that you had to deal with that and were hurt by that. But assuming other people are like that when you have no basis of doing so, to the extent that it almost feels as though you're holding them accountable for how you feel even though how you feel isn't their fault but the fault of these jerks you interacted with in the past, is just not fair. You have to realize that someone saying "Sonic Forces is bad and I hope it doesn't sell well" does NOT mean "Screw you if you bought or like Sonic Forces". That is just not the case. Most people are not like that. Most people are not total jerks. You are not doing anyone a service by assuming they are.

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6 hours ago, Tornado said:

If someone truly likes Sonic Forces and actively supports having elements of it that are unique to it return in the future, great. Good for them, legitimately. People can like crappy games, people can like mediocre games, people can think great games suck. One of my favorite games in the series remains Heroes, and at the end of the day that's not terribly much better of a game and certainly wasn't any less of a dead end for the series than Forces probably will be even if there was actual passion behind it. That doesn't make their opinion any more valid than those who think Forces is an aggressively mediocre, cynical product showing off the worst of Sonic Team even if the game itself isn't as drastically poor as its reputation suggests; and if "you" feel that someone's core beliefs for the series in 2017 are based on how Sonic Team seemingly doesn't really give a fuck but are repeatedly rewarded for it anyway carries the implication that it reflects badly on you for buying in anyway and thus are insulted by it, then that isn't really that person's problem.

I'm so glad you mentioned this, because I'm one of those individuals who actually liked Forces despite its problems, and I understand why people dislike the game and where its problems are. There is nothing wrong with disliking a game on both an enjoyment level and a technical/design level. Forces was underdeveloped and didn't deliver on many promises and hype. The disappointment and harsh criticism is very warranted. I understand that it's sometimes hard to take negativity towards something you like, but not everyone is inclined to like the same things and that's what makes this fandom so diverse. Heck, let me be real here for a moment and say that I enjoyed (for the most part) Sonic '06 and I can still say that game was a load of crap, lol.

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I definitely don't want Forces to fail. I wouldn't say that I think it deserves to be a major hit or anything, but if it did moderately well... I think that'd be good. It definitely had enough good in it to warrant respectable sales, whatever those might be.

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On 12/01/2018 at 1:42 AM, Sir Laptop said:

I don't get it, why do people want this game to fail?

Because Sonic Forces is not a very good game to begin with and good sales = more Sonic games of a similar quality. No thank you! 

I waited FOUR YEARS to see what the next Sonic game would be like after the disappointing Sonic Lost World and to have it be just as disappointing and lacklustre is seriously upsetting for me as a Sonic fan. I guess the only thing you could salvage from Sonic Forces is the Avatar which was surprisingly fun, but where would you put it in a future game? Maybe a spin off title or on mobile?

Anyway, because Sonic Forces was a disappointment for so many, including myself, it doesn’t deserve good sales. Hopefully Sega will get the hint to stop half assing these Sonic games and perhaps put more effort into them. If they can do this for Yakuza, why not their flagship icon?

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A lot of shitty Sonic games in recent years flopped, both sales and critic, and yet here we are with another shitty one tho' :V 

Unless Forces sells INCREDIBLY bad, like say, less than 200K (which isn't the case), don't expect anything to change. I'm over believing Sonic Team has any brain left. It's a miracle that Mania came to be and I still in doubt about the future, no matter how great it did. 

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1 hour ago, Gabz Girl said:

Because Sonic Forces is not a very good game to begin with and good sales = more Sonic games of a similar quality. No thank you! 

Honestly, that is an assumption, and it's also very selfish that just because a few of you didn't like it, it deserves to fail in sales. If that was true, Mania would not exist, because Sonic 4 Episode 1 sold really well, but they still improved upon that. Forces has a direction and ideas I like, so I don't want the developers to reject them, for example:

- The Story and its tone

- The Avatar idea and customization (but I'd save it for a spin-off)

- Infinite

- More use of the cast

If Sonic Forces fails... well, I'm gonna make an assumption too, SEGA will most likely focus on 2D and the classic series with more Mania games, something a lot of us don't want to see. So I'm glad if Forces succeeds. Obviously the game leaves a lot to be desired, I hope Sega will listen to the reviews.

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58 minutes ago, Dr. Jack said:

Honestly, that is an assumption, and it's also very selfish that just because a few of you didn't like it, it deserves to fail in sales.

Yeah, we just covered this.

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If that was true, Mania would not exist, because Sonic 4 Episode 1 sold really well, but they still improved upon that.

Mania exists because the Sonic 1, 2 and CD remakes by the same development team did very well and got great press. We can reasonably determine this to be the case, since people in the know on Retro all but came out and said when the former two released that if they do well it will lead to good things.

Mania does not exist because of Sonic 4 Episode 1, which had an absolutely horrendous reception months before it released that led to Sega going into a panic mode and delaying it for half a year; and actually had a direct sequel that was a complete flop because at that point the jig was up about how terrible Episode 1 actually was. We can reasonably determine this to be the case because of the 7 years of time between Sonic 4 and Sonic Mania even if we do ignore the Episode II that did, in fact, exist.

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Well, SEGA kinda wanted Taxman to do Episode 3 of Sonic 4, they even contacted him. 

Also, I can't understand you guys saying "use of the extended cast" in Forces is a good thing, if anything, it's a HUGE waste of their potential... Seriously. Infinite is also a terrible villain. But when EVEN Eggman sucks, you know you'd failed.

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I think the thing to learn going forward is no matter what Sega does one segment of the fanbase will like it and the other will not. There is no win win honestly and any middle ground they take im sure most will not care for.

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4 hours ago, Dr. Jack said:

it's also very selfish that just because a few of you didn't like it, it deserves to fail in sales.

 

4 hours ago, Dr. Jack said:

If Sonic Forces fails... well, I'm gonna make an assumption too, SEGA will most likely focus on 2D and the classic series with more Mania games, something a lot of us don't want to see. So I'm glad if Forces succeeds

Oh the hypocrisy.

(I mean this isn’t even acknowledging how it’s not even selfish to have personal views and desires regarding a product. How is that selfish when you aren’t telling others to agree?)

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36 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I think the thing to learn going forward is no matter what Sega does one segment of the fanbase will like it and the other will not. There is no win win honestly and any middle ground they take im sure most will not care for.

I tend to agree with you. It’s one of the reasons why I just can’t get that upset or mad at Sonic Team and Sega - no matter what they do with Modern Sonic specifically, there’ll always be something. X_x

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49 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Has it ever occurred to you (and indeed SEGA) that making a good game will please the overwhelming majority, and that making a bad game will have the opposite result? 

Just a thought.

You say that as though Sega actively tries to make a bad game.

Or that Forces is bad on a conceptual level. Which, given the popularity of the Classic style in Generations and Mania, the popularity of the boost style in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations, and the popularity of the create-a-character in Forces - is not the most reasonable argument.

Everything in Forces is something that's been popular or requested. People like the boost gameplay. People like Classic Sonic gameplay. People like making OCs. People like Sonic's supporting cast. People like a more serious narrative. If you try to tell me there isn't an audience for any of those elements, I'm not going to take you seriously.

If you hate any or all of those things, then yeah, Forces won't appeal to you. That's Meta's point. But if you do and you're still disappointed in Forces, I think the problem is in how Forces' executed the ideas rather than the ideas themselves. And, again, they didn't fail because Sega set out to make them fail.

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9 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

You say that as though Sega actively tries to make a bad game.

Or that Forces is bad on a conceptual level. Which, given the popularity of the Classic style in Generations and Mania, the popularity of the boost style in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations, and the popularity of the create-a-character in Forces - is not the most reasonable argument.

Everything in Forces is something that's been popular or requested. People like the boost gameplay. People like Classic Sonic gameplay. People like making OCs. People like Sonic's supporting cast. People like a more serious narrative. If you try to tell me there isn't an audience for any of those elements, I'm not going to take you seriously.

If you hate any or all of those things, then yeah, Forces won't appeal to you. That's Meta's point. But if you do and you're still disappointed in Forces, I think the problem is in how Forces' executed the ideas rather than the ideas themselves. And, again, they didn't fail because Sega set out to make them fail.

I feel like you’re completely missing the point to make some different unrelated argument. Sure those things were requested, but Sega doesn’t know why. They look at it shallowly especially when looking at classic gameplay. They simply don’t care, or are too dumb to understand how it works. Instead of /working/ to understand and hire people that know how to take that knowledge and turn it into a good game, they choose with Forces the shit lazy route on almost every aspect. So yes, blues point still stands. Effort can go a long way. He was never arguing that the ideas inherently were bad and the problem (mostly)

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As I've already said before numerous times, of course SEGA didn't set out to make a bad game. They didn't walk into a board room and say "let's put all our money into making a game so awful it will finally kill this franchise that we rely upon". That's just beyond moronic.

Sonic Forces is pretty misguided on a conceptual level, because it only tries to piggyback on the success of games like Colours and Generations but doesn't have the nuance of them. Particularly with the inclusion of Classic Sonic, it shows that they're more interested in the image of the game as a successor to Generations than they are in building a quality product that actually holds up. No effort was put into making an authentic Classic Sonic experience, and he feels forced into a game that's already cobbled together. The difference between the execution and reception of Mania and Forces is absolutely night and day.

Do you honestly believe that I'm saying that nobody wants to see Classic Sonic, boost gameplay or avatars? People want to see all of those things. But beyond that, people would like to see a game that delivers a solid, well crafted experience that has more to offer than surface appeal.

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16 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

You say that as though Sega actively tries to make a bad game.

No, I think he says that as if Sega occasionally doesn't much give a shit if they do or not.

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7 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Sonic Forces is pretty misguided on a conceptual level, because it only tries to piggyback on the success of games like Colours and Generations but doesn't have the nuance of them. Particularly with the inclusion of Classic Sonic, it shows that they're more interested in the image of the game as a successor to Generations than they are in building a quality product that actually holds up. No effort was put into making an authentic Classic Sonic experience, and he feels forced into a game that's already cobbled together. The difference between the execution and reception of Mania and Forces is absolutely night and day.

Do you honestly believe that I'm saying that nobody wants to see Classic Sonic, boost gameplay or avatars? People want to see all of those things. But beyond that, people would like to see a game that delivers a solid, well crafted experience that has more to offer than surface appeal.

I have no problem with any of that. Like I said, I'm not arguing Forces failed in execution, and that fully deserves criticism.

People here have criticized Classic Sonic (at least, Classic Sonic not produced by Whitehead's team), the boost gameplay, and the avatars on a conceptual level. I'm sorry I assumed that you were repeating that point. 

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1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

Has it ever occurred to you (and indeed SEGA) that making a good game will please the overwhelming majority, and that making a bad game will have the opposite result? 

Just a thought.

I am not saying i do not want a good game I saying most everyone wants something different. What makes a game good to you may not be to others. Example

Someone no names say they hate forces music cause they hate vocal tracks. Ok sega in the future no more vocal tracks

I enjoy vocal tracks, live and learn and open your heart were a blast in Adv 1 and 2 to me when i was younger.

Someone does not like serious (or how young people say edgy) stories for a sonic game.

Some enjoy the darker side of sonic stories granted sega sucks at telling them

Some like classic sonic more than modern

Some like modern more than classic.

Going forward sega can not shell out 2 games in one year I am afraid, that said what do they choose. If one pics one side someone will always be upset.

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5 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

You say that as though Sega actively tries to make a bad game.

Or that Forces is bad on a conceptual level. Which, given the popularity of the Classic style in Generations and Mania, the popularity of the boost style in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations, and the popularity of the create-a-character in Forces - is not the most reasonable argument.

Everything in Forces is something that's been popular or requested. People like the boost gameplay. People like Classic Sonic gameplay. People like making OCs. People like Sonic's supporting cast. People like a more serious narrative. If you try to tell me there isn't an audience for any of those elements, I'm not going to take you seriously.

If you hate any or all of those things, then yeah, Forces won't appeal to you. That's Meta's point. But if you do and you're still disappointed in Forces, I think the problem is in how Forces' executed the ideas rather than the ideas themselves. And, again, they didn't fail because Sega set out to make them fail.

Too bad none of these things is well executed in Forces. Except the CaC thingy, which is quite meaty. But eh.

Who cares if the cast is there, when no one does absolutely jack shit, and none of them, not even Tails, is playable.

Who cares if the classic gameplay is there, when it's as subpar and oddly scripted like Generations, but even more automated and barebones.

Who cares if the boost gameplay is there too, when every element that made it cool in the first place was removed.

Who cares if the story is more serious, when it's 80% told through dialogue bubbles and goes from uncalled edgy to saturday morning cartoon in a blink of an eye.

I can't look at this game and believe it failed so badly when it basically does what a bunch of other Sonic games before it already did better. It's like they only hired 3 guys to design this game and had the rest of the team working on an Olympics game or something.

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