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Super sonic final boss ?

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Anyone notice how sega has been refraining from giving us a super sonic final boss when it used to be a series staple. We only got one super sonic final boss in the last 5 games. Why have they stopped using it ?

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6 hours ago, A sonic fan said:

Anyone notice how sega has been refraining from giving us a super sonic final boss when it used to be a series staple. We only got one super sonic final boss in the last 5 games. Why have they stopped using it ?

A lot of people started to get bored of the formula since it was no longer a big special surprise anymore.  A lot of people also disliked how a lot of these Super Sonic final bosses tended to throw completely new gameplay at you or weird unintuitive rules, as oppose to actually acting as a final exam for the main gameplay.

It's an entirely subjective thing though, I wouldn't berate anyone for wanting them back.  To be honest I did sort of expect one in Forces, but once I had settled into the game's story and there was no mention of chaos emeralds, I figured it was unlikely to happen.

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If they can find a way to make a super sonic boss that is simply an extension of the gameplay, similar to how adventure handled it, I’d be more open to seeing it return again. Unleashed and 06 really wasn’t my favorite when it came to final battles 

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1 hour ago, KHCast said:

If they can find a way to make a super sonic boss that is simply an extension of the gameplay, similar to how adventure handled it, I’d be more open to seeing it return again. Unleashed and 06 really wasn’t my favorite when it came to final battles 

I imagine that might look similar to the Time Eater fight in Generations, at least for the boost gameplay. Boosting forward, but with vertical movements in addition to the horizontal movement. Essentially, boost flight. Given they haven't implemented that in Modern Super Sonic levels in Colors, Generations, Lost World, or Forces though, I hesitate to imagine they actually know how to.

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No. No flight. Flight is exactly why the vast majority of Super Sonic final bosses don't play anything like the rest of the game. Flight means not interacting with the ground or dealing with gravity, which are absolutely essential to playing like a Sonic game and to being a platformer at all.

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15 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No. No flight. Flight is exactly why the vast majority of Super Sonic final bosses don't play anything like the rest of the game. Flight means not interacting with the ground or dealing with gravity, which are absolutely essential to playing like a Sonic game and to being a platformer at all.

You know what's always bugged me? Sonic is a fast runner, and that's what he does best. But when he's goes Super, his legs are just deadweights as he magically gains the ability to fly. Same thing when Shadow uses the boost. Like...I get it and I'm not complaining or anything. It's just odd when you think about it. Sonic stops doing what he does best when he gets more powerful.

But yeah, flying in final bosses is annoying. The climax of the game ends up being nothing like the remainder of the game. There's so much cool shit that Sonic could do in a final boss/level without just going Super and headbutting things. I've always like Perfect Chaos in SA1 for being a variation of Sonic's normal gameplay rather than a compete change.

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I mean, if flight in itself is a problem, I think you just don't like the concept of Super Sonic general. It's kind of his next best known thing besides invulnerability, and Sonic has a power up to do that.

Which, I guess is fine. Super Sonic has never been a requirement in a Sonic game outside of final bosses in... 9 games? Not counting the 2-D platforms? And if you just don't like Super Sonic you wouldn't like Super Sonic against the final boss. And given that with the exception of Generations Super Sonic hasn't been a thing in final boss fights for the last decade means you're getting what you want.

To speak to my point though, if you wanted to incorporate Super Sonic into Sonic's ordinary gameplay, in this case the boost style, it makes sense to give Super Sonic an ability that is significantly different than Sonic's normal state. Super Sonic in Colors, Generations, Lost World, and Forces is essentially a longer invulnerability for Sonic. He boosts the same, he jumps the same, etc. He's essentially a color swap. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to fight Nega Wisp Armor, the Lost World mech, or the Mega Death Egg Robot as Super Sonic since he'd play the exact same way. At this point Super Sonic's been done away with as there'd be no point.

Flight makes Super Sonic unique. This shouldn't be about gravity or accurate physics or the other buzz words Sonic fans like to use to describe Classic Sonic's gameplay. Super Sonic is entirely about spectacle to begin with. He's the player's reward for collecting Chaos Emeralds or reaching the end of the game. It's about seeing the environment you've traversed already and moping the floor with it with super powers. Flying makes perfect sense to reach that goal, especially in a 3-D title. It means developing an aerial environment for him sure, something that's never really been attempted, but the concept of it interests me.

In a boost title as I said, it'd probably be allowing the player to boost vertically in addition to horizontally. Essentially controlling the boost with either the control stick or the secondary stick/down pad. For an Adventure game, I immediately think of a faster version of the flight cap from Super Mario 64. For a classic game, it'd be about reaching higher portions of levels you can't ordinarily reach with regular Sonic by ascending.

Yes, it changes how Sonic falls when he jumps. But again, why even bother with Super Sonic otherwise? Just for nostalgia? Just so everything in the game acts the same? Because than it wouldn't be a "Sonic game"?

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1 hour ago, GentlemanX said:

I mean, if flight in itself is a problem, I think you just don't like the concept of Super Sonic general. It's kind of his next best known thing besides invulnerability, and Sonic has a power up to do that.

I don't dislike the concept of Super Sonic. What I dislike is shortsighted decisions that make for awful gameplay.

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To speak to my point though, if you wanted to incorporate Super Sonic into Sonic's ordinary gameplay, in this case the boost style, it makes sense to give Super Sonic an ability that is significantly different than Sonic's normal state.

If you want Super Sonic to have some special ability, come up with one that actually works with the rest of the game's mechanics. Classic style Super Sonic works because it enhances the things that are fun about Sonic to start with; not only do you run faster and jump higher by default, but those increased stats naturally feed into the slope physics and let you go even faster and launch yourself even higher, and because you're invincible you're mostly safe to do so. But if you give Super Sonic flight, especially in 3D, the ideal solution to 99% of obstacles is "fly over/around it", and at that point you're barely even playing a game.

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Flight makes Super Sonic unique. This shouldn't be about gravity or accurate physics or the other buzz words Sonic fans like to use to describe Classic Sonic's gameplay.

This doesn't even have anything to do with classic gameplay. This is fundamental; you can level the exact same criticism against the cape in Super Mario World and Tails in SA, that by giving the player access to easy and powerful flight you allow them to skip interacting with the level and most of the game's mechanics.

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It means developing an aerial environment for him sure, something that's never really been attempted, but the concept of it interests me.

It doesn't make any sense to design entirely new routes and mechanics that the player isn't going to be able to interact with unless and until they 100% the game.

1 hour ago, GentlemanX said:

Yes, it changes how Sonic falls when he jumps. But again, why even bother with Super Sonic otherwise? Just for nostalgia? Just so everything in the game acts the same? Because than it wouldn't be a "Sonic game"?

Yes, exactly. A reward that is, essentially, not having to play the game you bought is a pretty shit reward.

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Sonic Mania, for as awkward as its Super Sonic Final Boss can be, was a good marriage between the two. Being able to switch between running and flight seamlessly was a great idea, I just wish there a was bit more meat to it.

Personally I think the ideal way to design a final boss for Super Sonic is to make an entirely new level specific to him, that isn't just an arena to fight in like they usually are and one that takes advantage of the increased top speed and acceleration whilst also fighting Eggman or whoever ends up being the antagonist. Kind of like what you see in Metal Sonic's boss fights and like @Blue Blood mentioned with Perfect Chaos, just with more platforming. I know some fangames like Sonic After the Sequel and Sonic Time Twisted did something like this, just with less polish than I'd like, so it's definitely something that could be improved upon.

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Lore-wise, if you want Super Sonic to retain the effect of flying without literally flying and needing non-standard gameplay, you could just handwave it as him running on air or making long jumps off asteroids or something.  Then, as a developer, you just make the floor invisible.  Job done.

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11 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I don't dislike the concept of Super Sonic. What I dislike is shortsighted decisions that make for awful gameplay.

Awful gameplay to you.

11 hours ago, Diogenes said:

But if you give Super Sonic flight, especially in 3D, the ideal solution to 99% of obstacles is "fly over/around it", and at that point you're barely even playing a game.

This assumes the player doesn't find it fun to "fly over/around" objects. Which I think is silly. You're description of Super Sonic's high jumps and faster speed essentially describes the same thing, but with less control - essentially making easy mode floaty mode. You're rejecting it because you believe a Sonic gameplay method lives or dies depending on how Sonic interacts with the ground when the form in question is best known for not touching it.

11 hours ago, Diogenes said:

This doesn't even have anything to do with classic gameplay. This is fundamental; you can level the exact same criticism against the cape in Super Mario World and Tails in SA, that by giving the player access to easy and powerful flight you allow them to skip interacting with the level and most of the game's mechanics.

But again, you're rejecting that the cape or Tails are enjoyable to play. You're insisting that Mario and Sonic have a strict gameplay formula and the moment it breaks the rules it becomes asinine. When we're not evening talking about how the meat of the game plays in any of the three instances: the cape, Tails, or Super Sonic. That's crazy.

11 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It doesn't make any sense to design entirely new routes and mechanics that the player isn't going to be able to interact with unless and until they 100% the game.

Of course it does, it adds replay ability to a title by giving the player a new experience when going back to existing areas. "I can fly with Super Sonic now, let's see how high up I can fly. Oh look, there's this upper path I didn't know about. Let's give it a try." By this logic, if Knuckles had been unlockable after finishing Sonic 3 without plugging in Sonic & Knuckles, you'd complain that they were introducing gliding and climbing physics and areas only Knuckles can reach after the credits roll, but having him available at the beginning magically fixes the problem.

11 hours ago, Diogenes said:
13 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

Because than it wouldn't be a "Sonic game"?

Yes, exactly. A reward that is, essentially, not having to play the game you bought is a pretty shit reward.

This is essentially my problem with your entire argument. You have this pigeon holed idea of what a Sonic game looks and acts like and if something breaks the iron clad rules you've set for yourself, you throw the entire thing out. It doesn't matter if Super Sonic flight offers exploration, a new way to show off Sonic's speed, a new dimension to his movement through a level, or anything else. The moment you mess with the rule, "this ignores the slope physics", you toss it out on the basis that it suddenly inverts everything else and stops being a "Sonic game". And I just can't think any developer, Sonic Team or otherwise, would look at a title with that kind of black and white thinking.

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"Well maybe someone would like it!" isn't an argument worth entertaining. If you accept that, there's nothing that can't be argued; people like '06, therefore nobody can criticize it, because it's fun for them. 

5 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

The moment you mess with the rule, "this ignores the slope physics", you toss it out on the basis that it suddenly inverts everything else and stops being a "Sonic game".

It stops being a Sonic game because it ignores every mechanic and element of level design that the games are built on. You don't need to homing attack because you're flying. You don't need to bounce off springs or jump through hoops because you're flying. You don't need to go through loops because you're flying. You don't need to jump because you're flying.

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15 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

"Well maybe someone would like it!" isn't an argument worth entertaining. If you accept that, there's nothing that can't be argued; people like '06, therefore nobody can criticize it, because it's fun for them.

Because fans of a documented broken game is equivalent to a gameplay approach you disagree with.

15 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It stops being a Sonic game because it ignores every mechanic and element of level design that the games are built on. You don't need to homing attack because you're flying. You don't need to bounce off springs or jump through hoops because you're flying. You don't need to go through loops because you're flying. You don't need to jump because you're flying.

The homing attack can be implemented while flying. Bouncing off springs and going through hoops can be done while flying. If the level is designed a particular way you can go through loops while flying. You could need to jump in order to fly and jumping can be implemented into the flying mechanic works.

Again, you're rejecting the concept without considering out how it might be implemented with the standard Sonic controls and level design.

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5 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

Because fans of a documented broken game is equivalent to a gameplay approach you disagree with.

Ohhh, but it's only "documented broken" in your opinion! I never ran into any of these glitches and besides, the glitches are fun. You're just narrow minded. How dare you trample on my opinion.

5 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

The homing attack can be implemented while flying. Bouncing off springs and going through hoops can be done while flying. If the level is designed a particular way you can go through loops while flying. You could need to jump in order to fly and jumping can be implemented into the flying mechanic works.

I used "need" for a reason. "Can" isn't enough. Unless you nerf flight to the point where it's hardly even useful (which entirely goes against it being a reward), it's going to overpower other gameplay mechanics.

5 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

Again, you're rejecting the concept without considering out how it might be implemented with the standard Sonic controls and level design.

Because. It. Can't. If you can come up with an implementation that proves otherwise I'd like to see it, but I'm not convinced by you asserting the possibility that someone will figure out how to make it work.

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Ohhh, but it's only "documented broken" in your opinion! I never ran into any of these glitches and besides, the glitches are fun. You're just narrow minded. How dare you trample on my opinion.

You're trying to provoke me because I'm disagreeing with you about a video game. Take a breath.

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I used "need" for a reason. "Can" isn't enough. Unless you nerf flight to the point where it's hardly even useful (which entirely goes against it being a reward), it's going to overpower other gameplay mechanics.

Super Sonic already overpowers the other gameplay mechanics. Super Sonic can regularly be used to fly over loops and onto areas springs would normally be used to reach. His invulnerability makes the homing attack as a method of defeating an enemy moot. Even gravity's ability to bring him back down is lessened by how much time you spend airborne already depending on your speed. Super Sonic is about overpower, that's the whole idea.

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Because. It. Can't. If you can come up with an implementation that proves otherwise I'd like to see it, but I'm not convinced by you asserting the possibility that someone will figure out how to make it work.

I'll start by saying I'm not a developer, I have no background in video game development or even the slightest bit of programming. So I'm not in a position to assert I know how to do these things. I'm just going to spit ball ideas.

You jump into the air with the jump button. This becomes your ability to ascend, either by repeated pressing of the jump button or holding down the jump button. Holding down the control sticks continues to allow Sonic to move. Continued movement in a particular direction continues to allow Sonic to build up momentum. This momentum however can now be applied to whichever direction your control stick is pointing. He'll go up or down or left or right with his momentum in tact due to flight. Not regularly pressing the jump button or releasing the jump button may allow him to slow down if the player should choose to. Rolling is disabled while flying for obvious reasons as it is reliant on the slope controls. Spin Dash remains functional with it's standard button, while spin dashing Sonic descends but once spin dash is released Sonic bursts forward and maintains altitude or slowly descends while still in ball form. Once spin dash is released the jump button once again allows Sonic to ascend.

While in a 3-D environment, if an enemy is nearby Super Sonic homes in and strikes the enemy as is standard. Springs are positioned on floating platforms or on their own to push Super Sonic in a particular direction, whether that be to successfully collect a line of rings or to direct Sonic toward a particular aerial platform. Essentially the springs offer precision. Hoops can also offer the same thing, in addition to allowing Sonic to perform tricks and in rainbow rings. Additionally, hoops can be positioned in a way to see if the play can successfully fly through them all, the reward for going through all of them can be points, extra rings, etc.

In a boost style game, upon jumping Sonic can use the boost to go up and down depending on the direction of a second control stick. Quick steps can now be performed in a a variety of potential directions, not limiting Sonic to left or right. Slide can be used to make Sonic through narrow obstacles he's flying toward. Homing attack continues to operate as previously described. Drift also operate the same if Sonic wishes to instantly change direction.

Again, that's just me spit balling ideas. I'm sure someone more versed in this field could do better.

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27 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

You're trying to provoke me because I'm disagreeing with you about a video game. Take a breath.

I'm trying to demonstrate how your argument leads to garbage.

27 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

Super Sonic already overpowers the other gameplay mechanics. Super Sonic can regularly be used to fly over loops and onto areas springs would normally be used to reach.

No, as I already explained, it doesn't overpower the mechanics, it enhances them. You don't just jump over huge sections of the level from a standing start; you use Super Sonic's increased stats along with the game's slope physics to launch yourself higher than you could as normal Sonic.

27 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

Super Sonic is about overpower, that's the whole idea.

It's about being overpowered in the sense that you can go beyond the standard limits. It's not about being overpowered in the sense that it completely removes any need to engage with the game's mechanics because you can just fly over everything.

27 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

While in a 3-D environment, if an enemy is nearby Super Sonic homes in and strikes the enemy as is standard.

Okay most of this idea is answering the wrong question. Most of this is answering "how do you program Sonic to fly?", but that's trivially easy, there are probably hundreds of ways to slap some sort of flight mechanic onto him. The real question is "why do you program Sonic to fly?", or, what is this mechanic contributing to the gameplay and how is it interacting with the existing mechanics? You certainly can program it so Sonic can both fly and homing attack, but for what reason would you ever homing attack while flying? Enemies are no threat while you're Super. You don't need to use them to cross a gap, as you can fly. Unless you're in a boss fight or one of those incredibly shitty kill rooms you're not going to need to fight anything to continue. The points you'd get from defeating an enemy are paltry compared to the time saved in just flying past. Flight essentially removes the need to homing attack by removing the need to interact with enemies. That whole aspect of the game basically just drops out.

Am I getting somewhere with this? Because I'm running out of ways to try to explain how it negates most of the game's mechanics and why that is a bad thing.

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Wasn´t it always (well most of the time) because the final boss was in some unusual space ?
3&K - Space

SA1 - he didn't fly

SA2 - Space

Heroes - High in the clouds (unspecified)

06 - Solaris-made dimension

Unleashed - this sucks, Earth Core - was he flying, though ?

Generations - Time Eater pocket dimension (if the regular playthrough with him is not counted)

Mania - both standing and flying, Phantom Ruby pocket dimension

What about handheld games ? Because the Console ones have most of the time space or pocket dimension and that kinda stinks, but at least shows that in the final boss areas Super Sonic doesn't have to deal with gravity.

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20 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm trying to demonstrate how your argument leads to garbage.

By using an extreme to discredit any rebuttal that doesn't fit your parameters of acceptability and doing it in a hostile way besides. It's overkill if I'm being generous.

25 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No, as I already explained, it doesn't overpower the mechanics, it enhances them. You don't just jump over huge sections of the level from a standing start; you use Super Sonic's increased stats along with the game's slope physics to launch yourself higher than you could as normal Sonic.

It's about being overpowered in the sense that you can go beyond the standard limits. It's not about being overpowered in the sense that it completely removes any need to engage with the game's mechanics because you can just fly over everything.

Detach yourself from the slope physics, you keep getting stuck because the game still lives or dies depending if that one element is present. Nothing else seems to matter about the game to you unless this is present at all times, which I assert is unreasonable.

38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The real question is "why do you program Sonic to fly?", or, what is this mechanic contributing to the gameplay and how is it interacting with the existing mechanics? You certainly can program it so Sonic can both fly and homing attack, but for what reason would you ever homing attack while flying? Enemies are no threat while you're Super. You don't need to use them to cross a gap, as you can fly. Unless you're in a boss fight or one of those incredibly shitty kill rooms you're not going to need to fight anything to continue. The points you'd get from defeating an enemy are paltry compared to the time saved in just flying past. Flight essentially removes the need to homing attack by removing the need to interact with enemies. That whole aspect of the game basically just drops out.

The mechanic is offering a new way to experience the momentum the Sonic formula provides. Sonic wouldn't start from 0 to 60, he'd build up momentum in whichever direction he was going, it's just no reliant on the gravity that pushes him back down. I mentioned the homing attack directing him toward an enemy mid-flight. You say you don't "need to interact with enemies". A lot of the time, you already don't need to as regular Sonic, certainly not as Super Sonic. But the player enjoys smashing the badnik, they like freeing the little animal, it's what is expected by them being there. Do you need to homing attack into them? No. Would it make it easier to hit them? Potentially. Could it be a satisfying way for the player to control how they hit them? Potentially. How you're describing flight seems like the most boring way to utilize the mechanic that wouldn't be the intention of its inclusion, nor would be the only way to use it.

53 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Am I getting somewhere with this? Because I'm running out of ways to try to explain how it negates most of the game's mechanics and why that is a bad thing.

Honestly, I'm only getting more interested in how you could actually implement flight and the possibilities it would offer. Where you see the game being neutered I see it being re-imagined. I still think you're focusing too much on these criteria you feel have to be there in order to keep it feeling "like Sonic", as though that's defined so blatantly. 

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3 hours ago, superman43 said:

Wasn´t it always (well most of the time) because the final boss was in some unusual space ?
3&K - Space

SA1 - he didn't fly

SA2 - Space

Heroes - High in the clouds (unspecified)

06 - Solaris-made dimension

Unleashed - this sucks, Earth Core - was he flying, though ?

Generations - Time Eater pocket dimension (if the regular playthrough with him is not counted)

Mania - both standing and flying, Phantom Ruby pocket dimension

What about handheld games ? Because the Console ones have most of the time space or pocket dimension and that kinda stinks, but at least shows that in the final boss areas Super Sonic doesn't have to deal with gravity.

SA1 did take advantage of his "flight" by having him use Super Sonic to overcome the sheer amount of water everywhere.  A fairly novel way to justify Super Sonic without him controlling wildly different.  I also love that the whole concept behind the final boss of a Sonic game was based around speed - you had to keep your speed up to damage the boss.  Not even Mania did something so elegant with designing a final boss around core mechanics.

Heroes and Shadow weren't too bad in that "flight" was basically just an invisible floor in the sky... they were just shitty bosses for other reasons.

More situations like that would be appreciated for Super Sonic bosses in my opinion.  There must be more ways to justify Super Sonic by the context without having him control like a minigame.

 

 

Hell to be honest, I'd take just repeating the basic SA1 final boss concept over and over again but slightly different each time, it's a really good concept.  If we're gonna be unoriginal, let's keep doing that one over and over instead of Nega Wisp Armor clones from Colours.

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24 minutes ago, JezMM said:

SA1 did take advantage of his "flight" by having him use Super Sonic to overcome the sheer amount of water everywhere.  A fairly novel way to justify Super Sonic without him controlling wildly different.  I also love that the whole concept behind the final boss of a Sonic game was based around speed - you had to keep your speed up to damage the boss.  Not even Mania did something so elegant with designing a final boss around core mechanics.

Heroes and Shadow weren't too bad in that "flight" was basically just an invisible floor in the sky... they were just shitty bosses for other reasons.

More situations like that would be appreciated for Super Sonic bosses in my opinion.  There must be more ways to justify Super Sonic by the context without having him control like a minigame.

It would be actually nice if 3D Sonic did that normally while running at high speed, as "Classic" Sonic in S3/S&K, without Boost. That would be neat to have in-game, I think it would be a bit difficult to implement though.

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Normally I'd agree with what most people are saying here and adhere to the "stick to one gameplay" mindset, but I'll have to disagree this once simply because having a random Shump level in the middle of a platformer type of game has been done well and has been well recieved in the past...AKA it makes for a good pace breaker if done right.

...And there lies the problem, I don't think enough attention has been given to SS to make it "done right". Sonic 3 and Mania do technically get it right, but even there it can stand to be made improved. If the core of sonic's appeal is learing to control a loose physics engine, why not contrast that with a stiff, yet well controlled Shump styled gameplay. Make sonic shoot lazers or something, design it like a fast paced Touhou game or something (of course you'd tone it down so that its not overbearingly difficult tho). Any real attempt to fix final SS battles would go a long way to its reputation, there's a lot of untapped potential here!

...Or you know...just not have final SS battles...that works too! :/

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The only example I can really think of with schmups working well is Kirby, and I think the reason they're well recieved is that the original game where they first appeared was very projectile based as is (so the schmup boss felt like an extension of that), and later games all had a variety of projectile-based combat attacks.  Schmup in Kirby works pretty okay for those reasons.

A random schmup level in Sonic doesn't sound bad for a change of pace either but I dunno if I'd want it to close the game.  Again it's one of those cases where it takes the question "how can we make a super-powered feeling platforming-based final boss?" and just tosses the question out and does something else instead.

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