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Does Shadow needs Chaos Emerald?


MetalSkulkBane

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I see few people argue on that topic and I wanted to throw my few cents. But I didn't want to go off-topic, so I'm making this one.

Does Shadow need Chaos Emerald to use his special powers?

If you look at the very first game the answer seems to be yes, he needs Emeralds to Chaos Control. Okay, he doesn't have one during the final fight with Sonic, but he's near them, maybe that's enough. (Sonic has fake one next to him, while six emeralds are directly connected to the station they run on. Since ARK was made by Gerald it is possible it channel chaos energy in a way Shadow can to it).

In Heroes he has one emerald for a whole game. Shadow 2005  also seems to confirm that theory: no powers before he gets first Emerald. But then comes Sonic 06, Chronicles, Rivals 1&2, games where clearly Shadow can do some tricks with no emeralds (also Archie Sonic). There are two attitudes you can pick.

1 "Sega just doesn't care about continuity. They do whatever they want"
In this case, we must abandon any logic and just accept that Shadow doesn't need emeralds because Sega said so.

2 "There must be some logical explanation in the lore"
But if we insist on looking at Sonic as somewhat consistent (a task that is doomed, yet I think most of us prefers to think in that way) there is an answer. You might have noticed I missed one game where Shadow plays a key role.

Sonic Battle. Throughout the game, Shadow uses plenty of Chaos abilities and has Chas Emerald. Until the end of his storyline, where Shadow learns more about Maria's death ("bring hope to humanity" and stuff) and gives up his gem to Emerl. Then he challenges him to the duel.

Emerl: You sure about that? I don't want to whine about how you didn't have your "Chaos Emerald"

Shadow: I no longer need it. I have Maria in my heart.

This game takes place after SA2, Heroes, and Shadow, only three games when Shadow is always carrying Chaos Emerald when using his powers. What I'm about to say is basically fan theory, but Chaos dang it, it makes too much sense. And "I no longer need it" sounds like admitting to that.

I believe that events of Sonic Battle changed Shadow. That it gave him the confidence to open his true potential and use his powers regardless whenever he has emerald or not. Now, using them probably drains him, he needs rings, glowing orb from Generation, or simple rest if he wants to use his powers more often.

I don't know if I convinced anyone, but believing in that makes me sleep a little easier.

 

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That's a good explanation.  My own view is that, from both a gameplay and a writing perspective, you need to have some way of limiting Shadow so that he's not just boringly overpowered in a way that nullifies the need for all other characters to exist.  My own suggestion would be that he can use a Chaos Emerald to "charge up," something like a battery, so that he can use his Chaos abilities without a Chaos Emerald for a while - but eventually his Chaos Energy will run out and he'll be reduced to normal and need to charge up again to use his powers.  With a Chaos Emerald, he's "plugged in," and can use his powers without a limit because Chaos Emeralds provide an unlimited source of Chaos Energy.  That seems to strike a good balance that satisfies all representations without being overpowered: He can use his powers without an Emerald... for a while, but not permanently.

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We seriously did NOT need to rehash this stupid topic AGAIN for the billionth time... whatever (I'm just gonna copy/paste most of my first post from before)

So YES he absolutely does need a Chaos Emerald to be at least close by for Chaos Control, an unexplained event or two and non-canon game play features (alongside the life system or Amy going invisible) do not change that

Not only do all the quotes from the game cutscenes and official profiles say so: 

Quote

 

- Shadow profile, Adventure2 manual: "Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds"

- Sonic, Adventure2 cutscene: "It's not his speed, he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp."

- Shadow, Adventure2 cutscene: "It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But... there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake."

- Shadow profile, Heroes manual: "...and can use a technique known as 'Chaos Control' to distort time & space using Chaos Emeralds."

- Shadow, Sonic06 cutscene: "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space"

- Shadow profile, Sonic Channel website: "He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds"

- Shadow profile, Rivals website: "Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..."

 

Most importantly, the Dark Sonic Lord himself, Takashi Iizuka (head of Sonic Team, and real life creator of Shadow), said so:

"If he [Shadow the Hedgehog] doesn't have a Chaos Emerald he cannot use Chaos Control"

Quote is from Sonic Boom 2013 fan convention Q&A, in video below it appears @41:30

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I tend to think that most contradictions regarding Shadow's need for a Chaos Emerald to use their powers can be pretty easily explained simply as a narrative oversight or ludonarrative dissonance.

There is a discussion to be had on what Shadow does possess natively without the aid of the Emeralds.  He can run at speeds matching Sonic; does that come from the jets on his shoes or are the jets merely a catalyst to already latent abilities?  Is Homing Attack part of his narrative move pool, or is that purely for gameplay purposes like characters that are not Sonic (and I guess Tails) being able to use Spin Dash?  Can he seriously hold a fucking Minigun in one hand because come on what the hell?  Questions like that are pretty much fair game, I think, but as far as Chaos Control and Chaos Spear are concerned, I think it's been mentioned, if not implicated, enough times that he needs an Emerald for that, despite being occasionally contradicted.

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2 hours ago, Darth InVaders said:

We seriously did NOT need to rehash this stupid topic AGAIN for the billionth time... whatever (I'm just gonna copy/paste most of my first post from before)

So YES he absolutely does need a Chaos Emerald to be at least close by for Chaos Control, an unexplained event or two and non-canon game play features (alongside the life system or Amy going invisible) do not change that

Not only do all the quotes from the game cutscenes and official profiles say so: 

Most importantly, the Dark Sonic Lord himself, Takashi Iizuka (head of Sonic Team, and real life creator of Shadow), said so:

"If he [Shadow the Hedgehog] doesn't have a Chaos Emerald he cannot use Chaos Control"

Quote is from Sonic Boom 2013 fan convention Q&A, in video below it appears @41:30

I could throw few speculations, but simplest answer:

Chaos control is only one of many powers Shadow posses. In 06 for example, he needs Emerald for Chaos Control but can throw Chaos Spears without it.

 

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For Chaos Control, yes. However, Chaos Spear seems to be fair game, at least according to Sonic X and Sonic 06.

Also, I think it's possible to use Chaos Blast without an emerald in Shadow, but that seems to be the case in everything else as well.

Just now, Razule said:

We just gonna forget Shadow literally used it with no emerald in sight in Forces...?

Forces overlooks/undersells a number of things, but you could always just assume he did have an emerald on him.

 

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2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Also, I think it's possible to use Chaos Blast without an emerald in Shadow, but that seems to be the case in everything else as well.

In Shadow, it there are not enough enemies to fuel your Chaos gauges until you collect the giveaway Emerald at the beginning of Westopolis.  You're presumed to be carrying that one the rest of the game.

Of all the details for the game to get rigidly adhere to, despite overlooking numerous more obvious ones...

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4 minutes ago, Tara said:

In Shadow, it there are not enough enemies to fuel your Chaos gauges until you collect the giveaway Emerald at the beginning of Westopolis.  You're presumed to be carrying that one the rest of the game.

Of all the details for the game to get rigidly adhere to, despite overlooking numerous more obvious ones...

You can still destroy the environment, though, and Shadow will be able to use Chaos Blast before retrieving the emerald.

 

Not sure what that last part is about.

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Just now, DabigRG said:

You can still destroy the environment, though, and Shadow will be able to use Chaos Blast before retrieving the emerald.

I thought I remembered there not being enough environmental things to break before that Emerald.  But I could be wrong. 

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It depends on which way the wind's blowing.

Really, they kinda fucked themselves. They came up with a power that's too strong to be used limitlessly so they tied it to a macguffin, but they made it such an integral part of the character that they can't just leave it out. So they either have to always contrive a situation where Shadow has an emerald or bite the bullet and ditch that requirement, but they don't have the guts to do either.

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Shadow has been seen doing most of the aforementioned abilities without a Chaos Emerald in the vicinity, so it just depends on what the writers feel like doing. If I recall correctly, there was one member who insisted that a Chaos Emerald was necessary, but I think we soundly ended that ar-

13 hours ago, Darth InVaders said:

We seriously did NOT need to rehash this stupid topic AGAIN for the billionth time... whatever (I'm just gonna copy/paste most of my first post from before)

So YES he absolutely does need a Chaos Emerald to be at least close by for Chaos Control,

colbert.png

Guess Sonic Forces was good for something after all. Chaos Emeralds weren't even in that game.

Quote

an unexplained event or two and non-canon game play features (alongside the life system or Amy going invisible) do not change that

Why not? If it happens in a major mainline Sonic game that's canon, I think that's sound enough evidence as any.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the real discussion: Sonic continuity is a joke and not worth piecing together anymore. At one point it was salvageable, but it's clear at this point that Sonic Team doesn't care anymore, nor should we. At the very least, I don't care anymore. Not worth the headache. Shadow is one of the worst offenders.

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14 hours ago, Darth InVaders said:

Most importantly, the Dark Sonic Lord himself, Takashi Iizuka (head of Sonic Team, and real life creator of Shadow), said so:

At the risk of inviting offtopic chatter... when is the last time anything ever came out of something Iizuka said at panels or PR events? They talk of things that Shadow needs emeralds for, yet the games act in contradiction to that. They talk of lore where Sonic is actually set on two seperate worlds, but that so far has only been at best an excuse for environmental dissonance between games and hasn't actually been referenced in any capacity therein. They talk of not having plans to bring back classic Sonic after Generations and then completely flip-flop on it just two main games later.

Weird as it is to say about somebody with so much clout in all things Sonic, it's frankly really difficult to trust a lot of things that come out of that guy's mouth. I'm honestly convinced he just makes shit up on the fly to fish himself out of weird, specific questions like these so he doesn't have to outright say "dude I don't fucking know it's not like I'm holding the comprehensive sonic bible right here" to people.

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Having a discussion on what canon should look like is far more worthwhile than a discussion on what it does look like, which is virtually unanswerable.

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11 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

At the risk of inviting offtopic chatter... when is the last time anything ever came out of something Iizuka said at panels or PR events? 

Weird as it is to say about somebody with so much clout in all things Sonic, it's frankly really difficult to trust a lot of things that come out of that guy's mouth. I'm honestly convinced he just makes shit up on the fly to fish himself out of weird, specific questions like these so he doesn't have to outright say "dude I don't fucking know it's not like I'm holding the comprehensive sonic bible right here" to people.

Good job highlighting "came" for some reason.

 

I can't say I'm completely privy to all of what he's apparently said, but I do know that he's basically been re-establishing/setting some ground rules that were set in place or at least implied before and/or after.

Hedgehogs being the only existing playable characters to be able to achieve a Super Form using the Chaos Emeralds past the Dreamcast is something that Sonic Heroes indirectly implied due to the Super Shields and Super Sonic doing something similar in 06 with different results.

Eggman Nega being from the future in the Rivals games(which was apparently America only despite the PSP being more popular in Japan) was confirmed to be the case, doesn't actually contradict what was established in the games from what I can tell, and has been referenced in his many of his later appearances, side games or not.

And there being two worlds explains the two different styles between Classic/Modern and Dreamcast era, while also giving some loose credence the whole "Sonic's World".

11 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

They talk of things that Shadow needs emeralds for, yet the games act in contradiction to that.

Does they really though?

Just because Forces doesn't specifically show him with an emerald--something the story doesn't reference otherwise--doesn't mean he wasn't using one.  Especially since what we get to go in is a dramatic up close.

11 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

 They talk of not having plans to bring back classic Sonic after Generations and then completely flip-flop on it just two main games later.

To be fair, not having plans one day and then actually doing something much later doesn't mean there was some sort of broken promise.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

...

Why not? If it happens in a major mainline Sonic game that's canon, I think that's sound enough evidence as any.

Here's the real discussion: Sonic continuity is a joke and not worth piecing together anymore. At one point it was salvageable, but it's clear at this point that Sonic Team doesn't care anymore, nor should we. At the very least, I don't care anymore. Not worth the headache. Shadow is one of the worst offenders.

What I'm saying is that the evidence you guys have is unexplained and vague, leaving plausible explanations open that keep the established canon.

The Emeralds are unaccounted for in Forces, they can be anywhere, including at least one on Shadow. This keeps with the established canon requiring an Emerald for Chaos Control. Other moments of Shadow quickly disappearing without calling out Chaos Control could also be just super speed "flash steps", it keeps with the established canon. Also there are also fake Emeralds that exist and can be used for Chaos Control that could also be on Shadow (hell he seemed to have one in Heroes when he pulled an Emerald out of nowhere for Team Blast if the player uses the move before collecting any Emeralds). 

You argue that these unexplained and vague events somehow prove a more dramatic claim, that a change to the canon has occurred. Changes to canon should not be taken so lightly. With all the official quotes, including from Shadow's own creator and current head of the Team, saying he needs one, it takes something not vague or unexplained to say a change to canon has occurred with no possible reasonable explanation to counter it.

But you got a point on that second part, Sonic Team is not huge on its own continuity, but there are parts that are established even if hiccups pop up (how fast are the characters for example - Sonic is established as supersonic, despite once being called hypersonic and possessing a Light Speed upgrade that is sometimes not an upgrade).

19 hours ago, Cuz said:

Should of let the issue die in the speed tier topic.

:yum:

Agreed

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Are you earnestly insinuating that the writers intended for Shadow to have a secret Chaos Emerald (fake or otherwise) in his left pocket or something. 

Because that's silly.

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If you're having to make up potential explanations for things that aren't actually shown in the games, then you're delving into fanon territory. It's just an inconsistent plot-point that's swept aside. Nothing more.

Don't try to pass off fanon as canon, because that's silly.

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32 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Don't try to pass off fanon as canon, because that's silly.

and Iizuka's own product blatantly contradicting him isn't? Shadow having a "secret" emerald just serves as the simplest explanation that doesn't contradict pre-established canon.

But ultimately I have to agree with Indigo that the sonic continuity, and thus the canon, is a joke right now.

16 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

Here's the real discussion: Sonic continuity is a joke and not worth piecing together anymore. At one point it was salvageable, but it's clear at this point that Sonic Team doesn't care anymore, nor should we. At the very least, I don't care anymore. Not worth the headache. Shadow is one of the worst offenders.

 

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2 minutes ago, Cuz said:

and Iizuka's own product blatantly contradicting him isn't? Shadow having a "secret" emerald just serves as the simplest explanation that doesn't contradict pre-established canon.

I'm pretty sure that neither Iizuka nor Sonic Team in general have actual answers to a lot of the questions the fans ask. It's like the whole "two worlds" ass-pull. There's something without an explanation that the fans ask about, and an answer is thought up on the spot that doesn't work. 

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1 minute ago, Blue Blood said:

I'm pretty sure that neither Iizuka nor Sonic Team in general have actual answers to a lot of the questions the fans ask. It's like the whole "two worlds" ass-pull. There's something without an explanation that the fans ask about, and an answer is thought up on the spot that doesn't work. 

Can we really say it's on the spot if he repeats it consistently?

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1 minute ago, Razule said:

Can we really say it's on the spot if he repeats it consistently?

You have a point. If I recall correctly, it was Aaron Webber who corroborated the two worlds thing

 

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In all honesty, there's a much simpler way to go about this.

Make it so that Shadow can use Chaos Control and Chaos Spears without the Emerald, but they're much weaker by comparison to a Chaos Emerald boosted version. Like say for example Shadow can Chaos Control himself for short distances without Chaos Control, but can teleport greater distance and pull others with him when he's boosted. Same principle for his Spears: bursts of energy that are small for regular, but bigger ones (maybe controllable and omnidirectional?) with greater power when boosted by an Emerald.

Of course maybe you could make it so that he can do the stronger version without the Emerald as well, but it should be portrayed as really tiring, completely draining him of his power and leaving him essentially defenseless for a while or potentially fatal if he uses it when he's already exhausted or just in general without an Emerald. Granted you'd have to make sure there's something to counterbalance this so it doesn't seem too overpowered.

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