Does Shadow needs Chaos Emerald?

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

Are you earnestly insinuating that the writers intended for Shadow to have a secret Chaos Emerald (fake or otherwise) in his left pocket or something. 

Because that's silly.

Sonic characters have been prone to pulling the Emeralds out of their asses since Sonic Adventure 2, often literally.

Shadow is even explicitly shown to keep them either in his backspines or flying around nearby in his own game

[Blue Blood]

2 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

You have a point. If I recall correctly, it was Aaron Webber who corroborated the two worlds thing

 

It's such an obtuse explanation, and one that doesn't make any sense at all taken literally or figuratively that I don't really think it was ever planned out. He's got to run with whatever is said.

[Indigo Rush]

37 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Sonic characters have been prone to pulling the Emeralds out of their asses since Sonic Adventure 2, often literally.

Shadow is even explicitly shown to keep them either in his backspines or flying around nearby in his own game

It's less the concept of hammerspace that bugs me and moreso the implication that Shadow always has a very major deus ex machina on his person without the writing staff feeling the need to exposit that to us; we're just left to assume that this is the case; I'm being asked to take this ridiculous theory which only a handful of people would even think to gleam that as the only explanation as fact, rather than justify the inconsistencies in the franchises' storyline by Sonic Team's writing staff having left their flagship series' continuity bible at the bottom of a wet cardboard box in a warehouse or something. An inveterate theorist isn't going to change my mind on that.

[Razule]

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

You have a point. If I recall correctly, it was Aaron Webber who corroborated the two worlds thing

 

Yeah. It's less that he just randomly spewed it out on the spot, more that it's probably written somewhere, like there's some kind of thought to it.. but it's the wrong thoughts, and they don't care about contradicting themselves in the past or later.

[Wraith]

28 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

In all honesty, there's a much simpler way to go about this.

Make it so that Shadow can use Chaos Control and Chaos Spears without the Emerald, but they're much weaker by comparison to a Chaos Emerald boosted version. Like say for example Shadow can Chaos Control himself for short distances without Chaos Control, but can teleport greater distance and pull others with him when he's boosted.

This is quite literally the case in the games from what I remember.

[Darth InVaders]

On 1/12/2018 at 1:47 PM, Blue Blood said:

...

Don't try to pass off fanon as canon, because that's silly.

That’s my line

Fans claiming big changes to canon that are completely contradictory to what the characters, profiles, and even the big boss creator himself has said is pure fanon

By the way, what is the bigger leap: a big change or retcon to a character’s continuity or an unseen enabler that keeps established continuity consistent?

Continuity must be favored until all reasonable possibilities are exhausted, or the creators just come out and say so. 

When is the next Q&A with Iizuka?

[Diogenes]

What's the bigger leap; accepting what you see, or inventing elements out of nothing to explain why it's not what it looks like?

When I see Shadow using Chaos Control with no emerald in sight, I'm more inclined to believe that he's using Chaos Control without an emerald than that he's carrying a secret fake emerald that is never explained or shown.

[Indigo Rush]

29 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

By the way, what is the bigger leap: a big change or retcon to a character’s continuity or an unseen enabler that keeps established continuity consistent?

How old is Sonic?

[Razule]

1 hour ago, Darth InVaders said:

By the way, what is the bigger leap: a big change or retcon to a character’s continuity or an unseen enabler that keeps established continuity consistent?

In this franchise? The latter. The continuity is only as consistent as the creators make it. They have made Classic Sonic a Sonic from another dimension, contradicting his appearance a mere two main series games ago. Why should we believe they care about these things and won't contradict or change them when they feel like it?

Edited January 13, 2018 by Razule

[Blue Blood]

2 minutes ago, Razule said:

In this franchise? The former. The continuity is only as consistent as the creators make it. They have made Classic Sonic a Sonic from another dimension, contradicting his appearance a mere two main series games ago. Why should we believe they care about these things and won't contradict or change them when they feel like it?

I hope you meant to say "latter".

[Razule]

Just now, Blue Blood said:

Did you mean to say "latter"? 

No, the latter would be what comes last, the former is what comes first.

 

[Indigo Rush]

4 minutes ago, Razule said:

No, the latter would be what comes last, the former is what comes first.

Oh, the follow-up statement seemed to imply that you agreed that it was a bigger stretch to assume that Sonic Team was interested in keeping things consistent. That would mean you thought the latter was the bigger leap.

[Blue Blood]

8 minutes ago, Razule said:

No, the latter would be what comes last, the former is what comes first.

So you're saying that it's a bigger leap to to say that something was retconned/inconsistent in a series notorious for not to sticking to its established lore than it is to invent an explanation for plot inconsistencies, even when said explanation would raise more questions and isn't even alluded to?

Uh...

[Razule]

10 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

So you're saying that it's a bigger leap to to say that something was retconned/inconsistent in a series notorious for not to sticking to its established lore than it is to invent an explanation for plot inconsistencies, even when said explanation would raise more questions and isn't even alluded to?

Uh...

Wait.. ah crap

I have errored

[Indigo Rush]

3 minutes ago, Razule said:

Wait.. ah crap

I have errored

Don't worry, it's not the biggest contradiction we've tried to dissect today.

[The Tenth Doctor]

Black Doom once said "The Emeralds amplify the space-time control powers of Chaos Control". So I always thought Shadow could warp a short distance but could do better with a Chaos Emerald.

[Indigo Rush]

1 minute ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

Black Doom once said "The Emeralds amplify the space-time control powers of Chaos Control". So I always thought Shadow could warp a short distance but could do better with a Chaos Emerald.

I'd question this, but you're the dude who played through the game at least 326 times so I'll take your word for it. This is a neat nugget of information I didn't know about.

 

It also corroborates what we've been saying the entire time.

[The Tenth Doctor]

Just gonna post the video as proof he said it. Put it right to the quote.

 

So yeah, kinda what everyone is saying.

 

[Flyinpenguin117]

My take: He can use all/most Chaos Powers of his to some extent, but without either having a Chaos Emerald or removing his inhibitor rings, most of them won't be at full power. For instance, he can use Chaos Control to teleport short distances (up to 5 meters or so), but can't make any long-range jumps. I think the Comics sort of handled it like this.

[Blacklightning]

11 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Just because Forces doesn't specifically show him with an emerald--something the story doesn't reference otherwise--doesn't mean he wasn't using one.  Especially since what we get to go in is a dramatic up close.

I might be a little late to this, but I just wanted to point out Forces wasn't the only example that came to mind. Hell, I honestly forgot Forces was even a case in point until you guys brought it up. The general point most of us make is that Shadow can use chaos powers to some extent on his lonesome, but needs emeralds for bigger feats (usually plot related ones). Bearing this in mind, just off the top of my head:

- Shadow has his emerald taken from him near the end of 06, but the brief time he spends without it in End of the World doesn't affect him in gameplay - he can still fling Chaos Spears and gather energy for Chaos Boost just fine.

- Shadow's ability to gather energy isn't actually hindered in any way by the lack of an emerald at the start of ShTH, and as some have mentioned it's actually possible to get enough for Chaos Blast before the mid-stage one if you really squeeze out sources of dark karma beforehand.

- Heroes is a weird anomaly in that Shadow uses a chaos emerald in Team Dark's Team Blast even if you haven't actually acquired one yet, so uh... is this just a plothole?

- Shadow carries an emerald for the majority of Sonic Battle, but his moveset doesn't change after he gives it to Emerl.

- Hell, did Shadow even have an emerald when he CC'd in the last boss of the hero campaign in SA2? From what I remember off the top of my head six of the emeralds were already plugged into the ARK, and the seventh was with Tails/Eggman at the time. Not to mention he still throws Chaos Spears if you let him run far enough ahead.

 

I think when all is said and done, the real problem here is that if this is an intended mechanic to Shadow's powers, the limitations to it are really inconsistent if not straight up undefined, and writers have a habit of ignoring it or completely changing their stance on it on a game-by-game basis. Which is kind of a problem innate to Chaos powers in general when you think about it, but it's definitely pertinent to the discussion at hand.

[Meta77]

I'm pretty sure he doesn't need one. It only amplifies the power. 06 teleport ftw

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

Just gonna post the video as proof he said it. Put it right to the quote.

 

So yeah, kinda what everyone is saying.

 

Huh. Well, he's apparently old enough to have potentially invented Chaos Control, so he should know what he's talking about

Also, Cheese and Rice! Even with my labtop at the barely above audible 40, Black Doom is really friggin loud with that random guitar jammin(or jermmin) in the background not making it any less notable.

1 hour ago, Blacklightning said:

- Shadow has his emerald taken from him near the end of 06, but the brief time he spends without it in End of the World doesn't affect him in gameplay - he can still fling Chaos Spears and gather energy for Chaos Boost just fine.

 

1 hour ago, Blacklightning said:

- Shadow's ability to gather energy isn't actually hindered in any way by the lack of an emerald at the start of ShTH, and as some have mentioned it's actually possible to get enough for Chaos Blast before the mid-stage one if you really squeeze out sources of dark karma beforehand.

 

He's still within the area of an emerald, though. Plus, I think we've established by now that Chaos Spear, Chaos Blast, and apparently some minor form of warping is fair game.

 

1 hour ago, Blacklightning said:

 

- Heroes is a weird anomaly in that Shadow uses a chaos emerald in Team Dark's Team Blast even if you haven't actually acquired one yet, so uh... is this just a plothole?

 

More or less. Unless you believe that's a fake emerald Omega was holding onto for whatever reason.

1 hour ago, Blacklightning said:

- Shadow carries an emerald for the majority of Sonic Battle, but his moveset doesn't change after he gives it to Emerl.

 

But of course: that's because he has <strike>Aurora</strike>Maria in his heart! 

1 hour ago, Blacklightning said:

- Hell, did Shadow even have an emerald when he CC'd in the last boss of the hero campaign in SA2? From what I remember off the top of my head six of the emeralds were already plugged into the ARK, and the seventh was with Tails/Eggman at the time. Not to mention he still throws Chaos Spears if you let him run far enough ahead.

 

Sonic still had the fake emerald on him though.

Plus, someone suggested that the Space Colony channels energy to help fire Cannon and help Shadow hone his abilities. Black Doom does mention something vaguely to the effect of the former during The Ark, so maybe.

 

[Shadowlax]

No

There was even a plot line about this in battle. 

he can just do it. It makes him stronger, and it makes them not have to write shadow obtaining a chaos emerald all the time. It saves shadow from having the " why isn'y knuckles about the M.E" all the time problem. He can just do it, chaos emeralds make it stronger, that's it

[Blacklightning]

11 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

He's still within the area of an emerald, though.

...if by "within the area" you mean "several whole goddamned streets away", sure.

Are we really entertaining the notion that not only does Shadow not even need to have an emerald itself in his possession, but that he can use them from that far away? Shit, he had to get practically point blank with Rouge's emeralds to escape Prison Island before it blew up in SA2.

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, Blacklightning said:

...if by "within the area" you mean "several whole goddamned streets away", sure.

Are we really entertaining the notion that not only does Shadow not even need to have an emerald itself in his possession, but that he can use them from that far away?

Are we talking about Blast or Control? Cause I'm semi-sure he never really needed one to use Blast. 

2 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Shit, he had to get practically point blank with Rouge's emeralds to escape Prison Island before it blew up in SA2.

Fair point. Though I think that was more about saving Rouge specifically.