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Does Shadow needs Chaos Emerald?


MetalSkulkBane

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4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

And I probably should've specified besides Forces, since it's the catalyst of this asinine argument to begin with.

Well, there's the last level in ShtH, where Doom has taken the emeralds to the other end of the comet, and you have to use Chaos Control at certain points of the level to continue.

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10 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I think believing in what's on screen is a little more reasonable than assuming something is there without there being any precedent for it being there in the story.

The Chaos Emeralds are irrelevant to the story, so they aren't there. And Shadow used Chaos Control. Because he doesn't need a Chaos Emerald to use small bursts of Chaos Control. He's done this before in cutscenes, and he's still doing it.

I don't see why this is such a problem.

Yeah pretty much, I wouldn't be surprised if they come up with a way to never have to address the M.E again in a more formal manner. When they created these characters they didn't expect the franchise to be in the state its in , one. But two, how media consumption and how consumption of characters to be the way it is, characters can't be anchored to things to much anymore, because they need to be of sellable use. That's what modern franchises are , characters are more attached to abilities and motivations rather than stories themselves and allow for these characters to be malleable and to continue to be of use . Its what I was saying it isn't just about dank lore, its also about the brand. Why restrict characters to something when you don't have to do it , and it makes them cooler when you don't. 

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The problem started with bringing Shadow back to begin with. His ability to use Chaos Control and any related abilities (Chaos Blast, Chaos Snap, Teleporting, etc) is such a defining character trait that any instance he appears would have to necessitate him having an Emerald in his possession. This is a really restrictive stipulation. To bring him back from the dead for Heroes means they had to bring that baggage with him, much like Knuckles' baggage being the guardian of the Master Emerald. It seems like that restriction slowly phased out over the years as writing staff and leadership changed multiple times, to the point to where Sonic Team was able to greenlight the Boom iteration of Shadow in a state where he can use a Chaos Emerald specific ability in a universe without Chaos Emeralds: to them, it's a non-issue now. Boom is easy enough to explain as a different continuity, but it's becoming increasingly more difficult to ignore these instances, culminating in him just using the full force Chaos Control without the Emeralds even being present in Sonic's Big Dang 25th Anniversary Story Heavy Forces Game. If this isn't supposed to be the case, then the leadership at Sonic Team is doing a terrible job at enforcing it.

There's been similar debates around these forums about Knuckles' role as a guardian of the Master Emerald post-Adventure 2, (it's such a common complaint that it got to the point where Sonic Boom's writers made a joke about it in the second season) and now... I guess we're just to assume that the Master Emerald either doesn't exist anymore, or it's still on Angel Island and Eggman's not interested in it right now. Whatever the case is, it's oddities like this that are easier explained away as retcons or changes in the character's identity rather than take the effort to contrive a unique explanation for each instance of inconsistency.

Ideally, we wouldn't be in this situation. The writing staff would have written the Chaos Emeralds into each scenario, in-game uses of Chaos Control (such as Heroes or Shadow) where an Emerald being there not making sense could be forgiven and the overall long-running narrative of the Sonic series would be perfectly plot-hole free.

But it's not. As of right now, Blaze's current backstory is that she's from another dimension, yet she recalls the events of Sonic 2006 in Sonic Generations; but at the same time, Sonic Generations refers to Classic Sonic as Modern Sonic when he was younger, but then Forces changes that so Classic Sonic is from a different dimension (where Sonic Mania took place) and Tails is already aware of this detail. This is a retcon in action. This is the writers either changing their mind or forgetting very crucial details. This is not supposed to be normal. This isn't exactly unique to Sonic, but it's a trend that's become so entrenched in the series' history that it's effectively pointless to fight so hard to reconcile everything. It's just not worth it, and I think a more constructive discussion shouldn't be about whether Shadow can or can't use Chaos Control without an Emerald (it depends on the game, because it depends on the writers and how much the leadership cared at the time), but instead be about what could be done to correct these inconsistencies moving forward, whether it be through a major defining retcon, a soft reboot or even a hard reboot. Whatever that may be, I think that would be far more valuable than trying to contrive a secret Chaos Emerald in every instance where it was clearly never intended to be there.

But that's just me. I'll just exit myself out of the discussion now, it's been exhausting.

 

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37 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Okay.

That's really, really stupid, but okay.

 

It's good enough victory for me.

I don't expect us all to agree, I just would like for everyone to understand the other side's viewpoint.

DId anyone here read Mirage's TMNT? In particular Volume 3, the one out-sourced to Image.

It was canceled in the middle of the storyline. To fix it, Mirage just declared it not-canon and moved on.

Eleven years later creators of that Volume gathered few fans and together they published (independently, for free) finally for this arc, in a way that fits continuity of Volume 4.

Mirage never green-lighted this project, so technically this story isn't canon; That doesn't stop fans from believing otherwise, it's more fun/ respectful to the source material this way.

(But I'll give you that: Shadow will keep using his powers without emerald, so sooner or later even most hardcore nay-sayers won't be able to excuse that. Honestly, this is why my theory works so well :yum: )

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6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

That doesn't especially change my point at how silly it is, but alright. Thanks for the insult.

 

We're talking about a black hedgehog that can skate really fast, has been shown to be able to flip buses and even pavement once, and use beryl to warp time & space.

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

 Thanks for the insult.

 

Image result for you're welcome gif

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

"Besides the one that contradicts me"

Sonic Forces is a major main-entry Sonic game, I don't see why it doesn't count. It's especially valid, and I'm going to need something more substantial than an unmentioned, super secret Chaos Emerald being stuffed inside of his spikes to explain this. Give me some meat. Where's the beef.

 

 

I meant in the sense that we've already used that example, so give more the other ones you mentioned.

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

If Shadow had a Chaos Emerald on his person, the writers would have mentioned it. As far as I know, the 7 Emeralds are currently behind a $1.99 paywall.

 

Would they?

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6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Well, there's the last level in ShtH, where Doom has taken the emeralds to the other end of the comet, and you have to use Chaos Control at certain points of the level to continue.

...Oh yeah. I suppose you could pass that off with "it's the Black Comet" and/or "all seven emeralds are within the greater area," but whatever.

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Well, there's the last level in ShtH, where Doom has taken the emeralds to the other end of the comet, and you have to use Chaos Control at certain points of the level to continue.

 

14 hours ago, DabigRG said:

...Oh yeah. I suppose you could pass that off with "it's the Black Comet" and/or "all seven emeralds are within the greater area," but whatever.

This.

Doom was depicted floating away from Shadow after taking the Emeralds, he is never depicted using Chaos Control between that point and when Shadow catches up at the end of Last Way. Since Doom was never depicted as being able to float faster than Shadow, let alone that much faster, you cannot claim Doom had the Emeralds out of Shadow's reach "at the other end of the comet".

21 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

"Han shoot first"

What do you think is more important: what company tells you is a 'right way to think' or what you believe was originally meant/ more sensible way to think? If next Star Wars movie kept saying 'by the way, Han totally shoot second' do you think fans would accept that as canon?

Now, the question is, why any of you even cares?

I care because I prefer lore to have sense, no matter how hopeless and pointless this is. This is why I come up with this little headcanon that solves everything.

Darth InVaders (I probably shouldn't speak in his name, I'll stop right after this post). seems to also prefer to have more respect for continuity than Sega themselves, so he's willing to overlook some things, to focus on "Han shoot first", on something that was done on purpose. I don't agree with his view, but I get it.

You're just willing to shrug off the change. Good for you, it's perfectly logical decision. But if you're cool with Sega not giving a damn, why are you giving a damn about them not giving a damn? Why even argue on behalf of "lore is a mess" side?

I think you never heard of Marvel's  "No-Prize". It's when a writer makes a continuity error (like IDK, using power without power source) and then fan finds an explanation. Then editor says "good job fan, you solved our problem. Have a no-prize". My whole theory (and I suspect Darth InVaders ideas) are based on this way of thinking

There is some truth in this, I do feel that all reasonable possibilities must be exhausted before it is considered a retcon. But your comparison to "Han shot first" is way off, since in "Han shot first" the creators are claiming that canonically Han did NOT shoot first despite the original depiction that he did - a clear retcon that the a portion of the fan community does not like. In this version with Shadow, the creators are still claiming that Shadow still needs an Emerald which would mean no retcon, but a portion of the fan community wants a retcon. I find it to be irrelevant what the fan community wants, only what the creators want is relevant.

 

I'm also feeling inclined to point out that although I do not take an official voice actor as a reliable source in this, I'm sure most, if not all, of you would have if that VA came down on your side. So just pointing out again that Shadow's current official VA said he needed an Emerald just a few months ago.

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I'm sure Sonic Team intended Doom to be hovering just a few inches beyond Shadow's vision at all times, coincidentally within the completely arbitrary distance in which Shadow's still able to tap into the emeralds' power, even though (as you state) he isn't as fast as Shadow, and even though Shadow uses Chaos Control to freeze time and fly through the level several times.

Because of course they didn't actually mean to show Shadow using Chaos Control without having any emeralds, when they had Doom take away the emeralds and then required him to use Chaos Control.

Yes.

Definitely.

This is a sensible conclusion to draw.

I'm glad this ironclad logic has proven the consistency of the physics of alien-hedgehog hybrids and their magic rock-based teleportation, rather than, I dunno, showing a character pushing past their usual limits for dramatic effect. Because of the continuity, you see.

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5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm sure Sonic Team intended Doom to be hovering just a few inches beyond Shadow's vision at all times, coincidentally within the completely arbitrary distance in which Shadow's still able to tap into the emeralds' power, even though (as you state) he isn't as fast as Shadow, and even though Shadow uses Chaos Control to freeze time and fly through the level several times.

Because of course they didn't actually mean to show Shadow using Chaos Control without having any emeralds, when they had Doom take away the emeralds and then required him to use Chaos Control.

Yes.

Definitely.

This is a sensible conclusion to draw.

I'm glad this ironclad logic has proven the consistency of the physics of alien-hedgehog hybrids and their magic rock-based teleportation, rather than, I dunno, showing a character pushing past their usual limits for dramatic effect. Because of the continuity, you see.

The distance one can draw power from the Emeralds is pretty large. See Sonic Unleashed when Sonic uses the power of the Emeralds to draw them in and transform into Super Sonic despite the Emeralds being scattered across the massive Gaia Colossus, and also how the Emeralds power can spread throughout entire islands like South Island.

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Christ, whatever, then. If you're this dead set on having the series run on tortured logic and ridiculous contrivances just so you can pretend it's mechanically consistent there's clearly nothing that can convince you otherwise.

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Doesn’t Shadow also use Chaos control in Smash Bros without the use of the emeralds? 

Anyway, so we’re trying to keep canon and consistency to events that clearly Sega weren’t thinking through nearly as much as anyone here? I mean how is adding a reason for every explanation for every contradiction here gonna make things less contrived and ridiculously stupid?  Especially when Sega will probably do something eventually that blows that explanation up.

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10 hours ago, KHCast said:

Doesn’t Shadow also use Chaos control in Smash Bros without the use of the emeralds?

Yes and Fox McCloud summons tank from mid air, your point?

Smash Bros, Olympics, All-Star-Racing, there are tittles we should use as 'hard canon'.

10 hours ago, KHCast said:

Anyway, so we’re trying to keep canon and consistency to events that clearly Sega weren’t thinking through nearly as much as anyone here? I mean how is adding a reason for every explanation for every contradiction here gonna make things less contrived and ridiculously stupid?  Especially when Sega will probably do something eventually that blows that explanation up.

It's a geek hobby, I said dozenth of times in this topic that I'm fully aware of hopelessness of this task.

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The point being Sega is pretty hands on when sonic is used in other franchises, so wouldn’t just willy nilly let Shadow, or any other sonic character for that matter, act totally out of character and do things they don’t want their characters perceived to be able to do? Like it being uncanon doesn’t really matter when it’s popular media representing their characters with their permission. Otherwise, why didn’t Shadow shoot lasers out of his eyes? If you’re associating Shadow not using them as akin to fox magically summoning the land master, not sure how the two compare. How else would they spawn it in a fighter? Meanwhile, they could have easily had the emeralds show up for Shadow. So Sega choose to allow Shadow to perform it without them 

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Shadow has never used Chaos Control when he was simply in the vicinity of an Emerald...

He either has one or doesn't...

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39 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Shadow has never used Chaos Control when he was simply in the vicinity of an Emerald...

He either has one or doesn't...

Well.. when he saved Rouge in Adventure 2 on Prison Island he did start Chaos Control before actually touching the Emeralds

It looks like he Chaos Controlled over to Rouge and the Emeralds from a few feet away. Shadow should definitely have been fast enough to run over and pick up a single emerald, or grab the whole bag in those last six seconds to teleport, but.. looked cool I guess

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At that point, Shadow already had a Chaos Emerald with him. Eggman used one in order to wake him up and caused Chaos Control in front of Sonic before. Also, Rouge was trapped inside, he had to use it to reach her.

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That's actually two emeralds. The one Robotnik wakes Shadow with, and after that, Shadow robs a bank to secure another. The one he waves in Sonic's face I believe? Which still works out since he threw one emerald into the cannon before going down to Prison Island.

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6 hours ago, Sephy said:

At that point, Shadow already had a Chaos Emerald with him. Eggman used one in order to wake him up and caused Chaos Control in front of Sonic before. Also, Rouge was trapped inside, he had to use it to reach her.

He is not depicted using Chaos Control to break into the room Rouge was trapped in. Yea Sonic X shows he continues to carry it, but Sonic X is not canon to the games.

Besides, drawing power from the Emeralds for any task is the same, there is only one set of rules...

So Black Doom drawing power from the Emeralds for a full power Chaos Control without touching the Emeralds (which were floating around Shadow's head) is proof that drawing power from the Emeralds that are simply in the vicinity is possible.

Also several times there have been Super transformations where the characters never touch the Emeralds they are drawing power from. For example, when Sonic turns Super Sonic to fight Dark Gaia in Unleashed, the Emeralds are scattered around the massive Gaia Colossus.

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Let's just chalk it up to Sonic Team forgetting or making more simple little details. It's obvious within Adventure 2 that you needed a Chaos Emerald to Chaos Control. As Shadow continued to return in the future, he also continued to use Chaos Moves since they were an iconic part of the character. By Sonic Forces, they either forgot or just didn't care to bother making sure Shadow had a Chaos Emerald on him every time he did Chaos Control.

I mean, we're talking about developers who now say Sonic lives on another world away from humanity despite what we saw in the series up until 06. We're shouldn't expect to pay attention to what happened before.

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  • 1 year later...

I like to think that he has limits to what he can do with or without a Chaos Emerald.

What he can do without one: Teleport, Chaos Spear

What he can do only with one: Freeze time

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1 hour ago, dipansini said:

I like to think that he has limits to what he can do with or without a Chaos Emerald.

What he can do without one: Teleport, Chaos Spear

What he can do only with one: Freeze time

That's what everyone though until forces.

Right now it's just " he can do the thing better with chaos emeralds rather than by himself"

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It’s clear Shadow can use abilities without Emeralds. So I just pretend he learned how somewhere along the way.

Idea #1. During SA2 he was unaware of his purpose. Now that Shadow is “awake” to himself, he can tap chaos energy without a power source.

Idea #2. Shadow is the Vegeta of this series. I imagine him off somewhere training to be THE ULTIMATE on his days off. So he learned it through practice.

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3 hours ago, Badnik Zero said:

It’s clear Shadow can use abilities without Emeralds. So I just pretend he learned how somewhere along the way.

Idea #1. During SA2 he was unaware of his purpose. Now that Shadow is “awake” to himself, he can tap chaos energy without a power source.

Idea #2. Shadow is the Vegeta of this series. I imagine him off somewhere training to be THE ULTIMATE on his days off. So he learned it through practice.

Or he could be training to help people , his actual characterization

Aside from that... shadow getting stronger because he's a weird alien baby + through training makes sense. If you wanna get weird, you could even suggest that the pod he was halted his development process for 50 years. He was only awake for like a week iirc. He could literally be growing stronger because he's actually a weird alien baby because he's like a week and some years old.

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Or what Sonic Team and Iizuka himself has always said is still true and Shadow still requires a Chaos Emerald...

- Shadow had a Chaos Emerald on him in Forces but animators overlooked and never showed it (all Chaos Emeralds' locations are unknown in the canon of Forces story)

- or fulfilling the requirement of a Chaos Emerald can be achieved with a fake Emerald (for example, if the player performs Team Dark's Team Blast in Sonic Heroes before collecting any Emeralds, Shadow literally pulls an Emerald out of nowhere - he may still have it) or maybe even with Chaos Drives (according to Rouge's Report of 50 years ago, Prof Gerald created Chaos Drives after researching Chaos Emeralds)

Iizuka and Sonic Team have continually said Shadow requires a Chaos Emerald. They have created possibilities that would fulfill that requirement. They are the gods of Sonic's universe, not us. Until one of them specifically says otherwise, we MUST assume NO change to the canon was made.

 

Iizuka says Shadow cannot use Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald

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43 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

Iizuka says Shadow cannot use Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald

We been over this , but he legit did it with no chaos emerald in forces and increasingly has done chaos emerald actions over the years with no chaos emeralds whatsoever. I would like to posit that this is a result of them getting away from the chaos emeralds as plot devices. To go along with this , shadow despite being in a universe with no chaos emeralds like boom, could still use most of his chaos powers. While an alternate universe, apparently the people in charge had no gripes with him just using chaos control powers with out a chaos emerald. This is ontop of the comics, who increasingly over the years have to get sega approval over what can and cannot happen, and what goes on in there shadow can use chaos control with out an emerald. Now to be fair to you, even the recent comics has not gone so far as to have shadow use the time stop ability. But he could use enough to literally knock the super out of another individual with a chaos spear so.. yeah.

I think the simple answer is ,  something that I myself had to come to terms with years ago with regarding iizuka , is that he just says shit and its meaningless. He changes his mind, he says shit to placate fans in the moment he doesn't really believe or care about... or doesn't really care that much and just says shit. And at the end of the day you have to look at the work he's putting out rather than what he's saying. And the work he put out is contradictory to his statements. You can try and say " Well we have to wait and see if says otherwise " we don't in this case.

Shadow uses full time warping chaos control with no emerald. That's it.  Full stop.

If you ask me personally in simplest terms. I think there was an internal move to make chaos control " shadow's " powers. Technically speaking sonic and silver can also do chaos control. And some robots and chaos himself. And Knuckles I think. I think just at some point the move was made to focus on what makes the characters unique and special ( and flanderizing the shit out of them ) and chaos control became a shadow focus. I think that's it and they don't care that its contradictory just like the two worlds thing because its what they are doing now. The corperate machine beats out lore everytime

However I may have a solution for you, if you really want to know. Now you might not get it strait from the horses mouth in this day an age because I don't think anyone else really cares to ask. However, you can ask yourself, Ian Flynn. The guy directly communicates with sega reps and even nowadays iizuka and sonic team.

If you really want your answer, donate to the bumblecast and ask the question.

Now that we have gotten past all this fantasy stuff , let me tell you the real answer.

Shadow can do chaos control if he has petted a cat first. That's the new restriction. Basically if he pet big and blaze at the same time, he would be unstoppable destroyer of worlds. He is powered by cats, coffee beans and spite and he cannot be contained.

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