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Does Shadow needs Chaos Emerald?


MetalSkulkBane

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To be fair to Mr. Iizuka, he’s the leader of Sonic Team and is probably more concerned with new ideas, project deadlines, budget, manpower, and other executive decisions, rather than whether or not a character is following a plot point. I bet when reviewing cutscenes for these games he’s more concerned with visuals than story. So yeah, maybe he knows how Shadow is supposed to work, but he doesn’t keep a finger on whether or not his story team is 100% with the canon.

I’ll point again like everyone does to Classic Sonic being a second Sonic. Nobody is watching the story team, they just make shit happen when it needs to happen.

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Just now, Badnik Zero said:

I’ll point again like everyone does to Classic Sonic being a second Sonic. Nobody is watching the story team, they just make shit happen when it needs to happen.

I really doubt that was just the writers going wild considering how much they've been pushing Classic Sonic as a separate branch of the series.

Anyway regarding the Shadow bullshit, nothing about the situation has changed, none of the arguments are going to be any different, so nobody's going to change anyone's mind.

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I really doubt that was just the writers going wild considering how much they've been pushing Classic Sonic as a separate branch of the series.

You might be right, but that makes it more frustrating. Fixing what doesn’t need fixing smells like meddling by some higher ups. So unnecessary. I’m reminded of the Sonic movie now.

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Forces mainly just did whatever with the little time and resources it had while also hinting at a few things they had in mind for the foreseeable future. Shadow using Chaos Control in that one scene without visibly brandishing an Emerald is not really one of the latter.

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47 minutes ago, Badnik Zero said:

To be fair to Mr. Iizuka, he’s the leader of Sonic Team and is probably more concerned with new ideas, project deadlines, budget, manpower, and other executive decisions, rather than whether or not a character is following a plot point. I bet when reviewing cutscenes for these games he’s more concerned with visuals than story. So yeah, maybe he knows how Shadow is supposed to work, but he doesn’t keep a finger on whether or not his story team is 100% with the canon.

I’ll point again like everyone does to Classic Sonic being a second Sonic. Nobody is watching the story team, they just make shit happen when it needs to happen.

This , but this in combination with its kind of been a slow build if that makes sense? Like shadow has been casually using various chaos control moves with out an emerald... since 2005. I just think he's the leader he's concerned with other things... and just might not care and it might not even be an important distinction with where they are going with this franchise.

Like @Diogenes said that just seems like a brand decision if anything, a good one too IMO.

36 minutes ago, Badnik Zero said:

You might be right, but that makes it more frustrating. Fixing what doesn’t need fixing smells like meddling by some higher ups. So unnecessary. I’m reminded of the Sonic

movie now

I think that's different. The classic sonic thing makes sense, and its something they should have done a while ago. Corporate meddling or no, seperating sonic as a brand and selling different versions of him to specific fanbases is ... a good idea.

The movie is... its own brand of corporate failings I could get into, but there is a thread for that.

Quote

 

43 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

Anyway regarding the Shadow bullshit, nothing about the situation has changed, none of the arguments are going to be any different, so nobody's going to change anyone's mind.

That's fair. Sorry.

6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Forces mainly just did whatever with the little time and resources it had while also hinting at a few things they had in mind for the foreseeable future. Shadow using Chaos Control in that one scene without visibly brandishing an Emerald is not really one of the latter.

I disagree? Kinda.

There's one narrative implementation that with out it, I would agree with you.3d Sonic in general has just been moving away from chaos emeralds. Wisps in many ways both game play wise and narrative now make up your " magical gem " quota. So in your new world with less emeralds around generally do you just remove a characters ability to do the cool thing people want him to do ? Nah, he can just do it anyway.

And I think its as simple as that really. And if anyone asks if he ever has one again while he does it , you can just brush it off by saying " Having one makes the effects stronger " .

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

I disagree? Kinda.

There's one narrative implementation that with out it, I would agree with you.3d Sonic in general has just been moving away from chaos emeralds. Wisps in many ways both game play wise and narrative now make up your " magical gem " quota. So in your new world with less emeralds around generally do you just remove a characters ability to do the cool thing people want him to do ? Nah, he can just do it anyway.

And I think its as simple as that really. And if anyone asks if he ever has one again while he does it , you can just brush it off by saying " Having one makes the effects stronger " .

 

 

While that is technically true, it likely didn't affect the thinking of that one scene in particular.

Why? Well in addition to once again pointing out how brisk and minimalist the storytelling has been as of late, the scene itself is probably about as short as the one where Sonic finds Zavok.

They just wanted to have Shadow take out his Phantom Ruby clone and the cheapest way was to have him use Chaos Control as depicted in his game to kick it. They don't even bother to have him strike a pose--he just kicks it, it fades away, he says it's a fake, Sonic reacts. End scene, cut to Star Fox text boxes.

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5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

While that is technically true, it likely didn't affect the thinking of that one scene in particular.

Why? Well in addition to once again pointing out how brisk and minimalist the storytelling has been as of late, the scene itself is probably about as short as the one where Sonic finds Zavok.

They just wanted to have Shadow take out his Phantom Ruby clone and the cheapest way was to have him use Chaos Control as depicted in his game to kick it. They don't even bother to have him strike a pose--he just kicks it, it fades away, he says it's a fake, Sonic reacts. End scene, cut to Star Fox text boxes.

I want to be very clear, In general i'm not assigning some greater meaning to...anything in that game. I'll be the first one to tell you how ...sort of nothing the plot is. You say minimalist I say vacant. I find this , what I am suggesting to fit into that.

Shadow doing chaos control without chaos emeralds isn't some greater thing where he learned about his powers... I mean It would be tight if it was but nah.

What I'm saying is , they literally did not care and are getting rid of elements that get in the way of their story telling. They did want him to do the cool thing he does, the fastest way possible. And they did not care that there were previous restrictions because those restrictions aren't being used and being moved away from/ they don't care.  It gets in the way of the thing they are trying to do, it doesn't exist really.

So I agree with what you are saying, I think what i'm saying falls into that. And i'm am in now way trying to suggest forces was anything other than surface, but their willingness to disregard things like that to maintain that surface, says something. That they don't give a shit.

No joke, I wouldn't be surprised if in future games to just brush past knuckles shit, they just start implying the master emerald doesn't exist. They don't care.

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55 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I want to be very clear, In general i'm not assigning some greater meaning to...anything in that game. I'll be the first one to tell you how ...sort of nothing the plot is. You say minimalist I say vacant. I find this , what I am suggesting to fit into that.

Shadow doing chaos control without chaos emeralds isn't some greater thing where he learned about his powers... I mean It would be tight if it was but nah.

What I'm saying is , they literally did not care and are getting rid of elements that get in the way of their story telling. They did want him to do the cool thing he does, the fastest way possible. And they did not care that there were previous restrictions because those restrictions aren't being used and being moved away from/ they don't care.  It gets in the way of the thing they are trying to do, it doesn't exist really.

So I agree with what you are saying, I think what i'm saying falls into that. And i'm am in now way trying to suggest forces was anything other than surface, but their willingness to disregard things like that to maintain that surface, says something. That they don't give a shit.

No joke, I wouldn't be surprised if in future games to just brush past knuckles shit, they just start implying the master emerald doesn't exist. They don't care.

Blame the animators, blame the writers, the story boarders, whoever.

Bottom line, everybody who matters says Shadow canonically needs a Chaos Emerald to perform Chaos Control - this includes Sonic Team (who make the games), Iizuka (who is the head of Sonic Team and personally created Shadow), and even in-universe Shadow himself.

Taking that, we must first consider only possibilities that hold true to what those official sources have said. There exist indisputable possibilities that Shadow could have a Chaos Emerald in Forces, and that any other "inconsistency" can be explained with fake Emeralds or Chaos Drives or even simple super speed "flash step" style. Without the ability to completely disprove these possibilities, or without one of those three official sources coming out and blatantly saying Shadow no longer needs an Emerald, we must consider that the status quo remains unchanged and Shadow still requires that Emerald. 

And no, Ian Flynn is not a source to go to in this, he is twice removed from the sources that matter. He does not even work for Sega. Hell even Sega employee Aaron Weber is not the greatest source since he is not in Sonic Team.

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Now that we have gotten past all this fantasy stuff , let me tell you the real answer.

Shadow can do chaos control if he has petted a cat first. That's the new restriction. Basically if he pet big and blaze at the same time, he would be unstoppable destroyer of worlds. He is powered by cats, coffee beans and spite and he cannot be contained.

OK then cats it is, keep Shadow away from that Broadway show

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Anyway regarding the Shadow bullshit, nothing about the situation has changed, none of the arguments are going to be any different, so nobody's going to change anyone's mind.

Agreed, but I don't like to let this bullshit spread.

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2 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

 

Bottom line, everybody who matters says

I don't think " everybody who matters" cares or even agree's with their previous statement at this point personally. But its whatever.

But again, Ian flynn has a patroen. Hit him up, get some clarification , because he's been talking to " everybody that matters " and his queries  often yield interesting insight on how sega or sonic team rather views things. I will instead offer that advice than an argument that is to be honest , going nowhere.

 

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24 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think " everybody who matters" cares or even agree's with their previous statement at this point personally. But its whatever.

But again, Ian flynn has a patroen. Hit him up, get some clarification , because he's been talking to " everybody that matters " and his queries  often yield interesting insight on how sega or sonic team rather views things. I will instead offer that advice than an argument that is to be honest , going nowhere.

 

Someone else who talks to everybody that matters is Shadow's own voice actor, Kirk Thornton. Hey, here is Kirk describing how Chaos Control works in a Sonic Twitter Takeover

Kirk, as Shadow, says he essentially needs a Chaos Emerald (in a comically oversimplified way)

Hit Kirk up the next time he is on a Twitter Takeover, he will also offer some insight into how Sonic Team views things

I still consider Kirk to be on par with Aaron Webber as not being a good source, but still better than Ian

Or better yet, wait for the next time Iizuka does Q&A like in that video I posted earlier.

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8 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

I still consider Kirk to be on par with Aaron Webber as not being a good source, but still better than Ian

...What.  Ian Flynn literally talks to sonic team now about what he can and cannot do in the comics. He's ..pretty close to direct as you can get with out getting the job than Ian Flynn or Aaron has and just talking to iizuka yourself. And that isn't kirk, that's aaron. Aaron writes that and kirk just says it, he doesn't have any insight on matters. Or as Eggman's VA put it on twitter " we just read the words in a way that doesn't sound like you are reading words " .  And while the actor or voice actors perspective on things may yeild interesting results from time to time...kirk doesn't talk about shadow when he isn't asked to do his voice. He doesn't seem to like him very much and really likes voice orbot more... so I doubt there's anything you can gleam from him if you asked him about it.

Unlike.. you know, the guy who's talking to sonic team and representatives about what he can and cannot do in the comics. The guy who through questioning dropped the " Team Dark isn't actually a team and never worked for gun " bomb shell because someone asked him. But apparently he isn't to be trusted for some reason.

And in those twitter take over's shadow shops at hot topic, watches, kill la kill and eats coffee beans, its fun things for fun but you shouldn't be pulling anything " canon " from that.

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@Darth InVaders Disagree on the Ian point. Ian has to work within a certain set of rules that is laid out for him through whatever Sega representative. He’s got the integrity to make a more coherent world within the mythos that are available. For his integrity and for the volume of work he puts out compared to the official sources (which do like one story a year), I expect him to know better the way things are supposed to be, and what is and isn’t allowed. He might not know it first, but he knows it better.

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23 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

...What.  Ian Flynn literally talks to sonic team now about what he can and cannot do in the comics. He's ..pretty close to direct as you can get with out getting the job than Ian Flynn or Aaron has and just talking to iizuka yourself. And that isn't kirk, that's aaron. Aaron writes that and kirk just says it, he doesn't have any insight on matters. Or as Eggman's VA put it on twitter " we just read the words in a way that doesn't sound like you are reading words " .  And while the actor or voice actors perspective on things may yeild interesting results from time to time...kirk doesn't talk about shadow when he isn't asked to do his voice. He doesn't seem to like him very much and really likes voice orbot more... so I doubt there's anything you can gleam from him if you asked him about it.

Unlike.. you know, the guy who's talking to sonic team and representatives about what he can and cannot do in the comics. The guy who through questioning dropped the " Team Dark isn't actually a team and never worked for gun " bomb shell because someone asked him. But apparently he isn't to be trusted for some reason.

And in those twitter take over's shadow shops at hot topic, watches, kill la kill and eats coffee beans, its fun things for fun but you shouldn't be pulling anything " canon " from that.

I said I do not consider either Aaron or Kirk to be a good source for canon but I consider them a better source than Ian. 

Also who is Ian's contact in Sonic Team? The special thanks in the comics are to Anoulay Tsai (director of licensing @ Sega Of America), Mai Kiyotaki (licensing product manager @ SOA), Aaron Webber (you know, who you've been saying does not have the same weight as Ian), Michael Cisneros (manager of licensing @ SOA), Sandra Jo (senior manager of licensing product development @ SOA), and "everyone at Sega"

23 hours ago, Badnik Zero said:

@Darth InVaders Disagree on the Ian point. Ian has to work within a certain set of rules that is laid out for him through whatever Sega representative. He’s got the integrity to make a more coherent world within the mythos that are available. For his integrity and for the volume of work he puts out compared to the official sources (which do like one story a year), I expect him to know better the way things are supposed to be, and what is and isn’t allowed. He might not know it first, but he knows it better.

So does this mean if I somehow miraculously line up a chance to ask one of the writers of Sonic X this question, would he, in your eyes, hold the same weight or more as Ian? After all, he may be in a different company (like Ian) but Sonic Team was directly involved in Sonic X (way more so than the comics) to make sure it remained comparatively truer to the game canon so the writers literally worked with Sonic Team more frequently (and probably without language barrier). And they had to make everything BZ just said (coherent world within the mythos and all - even considering the fact that this bullshit fan argument about Shadow not needing Emeralds started during Sonic X's run despite the fact that Shadow's need for an Emerald is unquestionable in Sonic X). So really it would be hypocritical to say he does not hold the same weight.

I can't believe you got me arguing about whether or not a guy not even employed by Sega and makes a non-canon separate universe with clear differences from the main canon can be a good source for the main canon.

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25 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

I said I do not consider either Aaron or Kirk to be a good source for canon but I consider them a better source than Ian. 

...what

25 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

Also who is Ian's contact in Sonic Team?

various folks with enough to give him the go ahead on things and to elaborate on lore. But as mentioned in more recent podcasts... he got to meet iizuka, so that now includes iizuka on rare occasion.

25 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

So does this mean if I somehow miraculously line up a chance to ask one of the writers of Sonic X this question, would he, in your eyes, hold the same weight or more as Ian?

No because one is from an old cartoon, and the guy we are talking about is someone currently writing the comics and is currently and is actively in contact with sega in regards of what he can and cannot do.

25 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

I can't believe you got me arguing about whether or not a guy not even employed by Sega and makes a non-canon separate universe with clear differences from the main canon can be a good source for the main canon.

he is not employed by sega directly , but he has contact with them as to how to use their material, which is the point my suggestion. Due to that, he could problably have some sort of insight on this type of thing since he has to ask what he can and cannot do. And considering this specific version of the comic is much closer to the games, now would be a pretty good.

Not to be rude or nothing, it just seems like you don't like Ian.

 

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@Darth InVaders Sonic X is not even remotely a recent show, but I can appreciate the hypothetical. If you talked to a Sonic X head writer twelve years ago then yes, I’d say he’s a decent source for what is and isn’t canon.

The difference is that Ian is a Sonic fan and constantly stretches new ideas in the comics. I have the impression that Sega denies him storylines sometimes. Because he pushes the line a lot, he is good source of what’s allowed and not.

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1 hour ago, Badnik Zero said:

@Darth InVaders Sonic X is not even remotely a recent show, but I can appreciate the hypothetical. If you talked to a Sonic X head writer twelve years ago then yes, I’d say he’s a decent source for what is and isn’t canon.

The difference is that Ian is a Sonic fan and constantly stretches new ideas in the comics. I have the impression that Sega denies him storylines sometimes. Because he pushes the line a lot, he is good source of what’s allowed and not.

And even then, what's prohibited today can be allowed a few months from now.

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I don't know. At this point I'd accept any explanation they gave, so long as one was provided. I'm not too picky.

I'd even buy that he does it by believing really hard in the Emerald's power, wherever they are.

The emerald's power allows him to feel.

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I'd even buy that he does it by believing really hard in the Emerald's power, wherever they are.

I so wanna make a reference here, but I don't even know where to start.

3 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

The emerald's power allows him to feel.

Oh fuck that. :lol: 

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  • 1 year later...

Hello

Im new ot the forums and after being bored and having nothing to do.  I came to this topic thanks to google. :D

Well you are are forgetting about the best Sonic game 06.  Where Shadow at the very beginning of the game uses chaos control to teleport. And he did not have a chaos emerald in hand. At the moment.   And he also refers to mephiles time travel power to be "very simililar to my own chaos control". 

Using that and the theory that Eggman specifically needed a Chaos Emerald to wake up Shadow.(maybe to recharge or to connect hem to the Chaos emerald tap force?) idk?    We can come to the conclusion Shadow can use some Chaos powers at some kind of power level but not to its full potential without a Chaos Emerald.  :D

We can't come to crazy conclusions and ideas anyway.. Its a game and a character and its a special magical force or power.  Can't be really tied up to real world physics and stuffs :D

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25 minutes ago, SuperShadowPR said:

Well you are are forgetting about the best Sonic game 06.

well... okay, then.... I don't know what to tell you if you think 06 is the best except... more power to you I guess.

anyways, you actually do make a valid point about the 06 thing, as shadow hasn't been shown to be wielding an emerald. Don't know if it's actual proof or just a plot hole, but I think it's a valid point...

(oh yeah and welcome to sonic stadium, get's a bit lonely here when there's just a few of us. enjoy your stay!)

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19 hours ago, iambitter21 said:

well... okay, then.... I don't know what to tell you if you think 06 is the best except... more power to you I guess.

anyways, you actually do make a valid point about the 06 thing, as shadow hasn't been shown to be wielding an emerald. Don't know if it's actual proof or just a plot hole, but I think it's a valid point...

(oh yeah and welcome to sonic stadium, get's a bit lonely here when there's just a few of us. enjoy your stay!)

naaa it was sarcams.. that game well we all know....

But it was usefull for bringing a point.  Plus he also had some other chaos abilities, besides chaos control ^_^ on the entry cut scene...

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I’d say from my knowledge of the video games, comics, and other lore, yes. Shadow does need the Chaos Emeralds to use his powers like “Chaos Control!”. He derives great power from them, more so than Knuckles the Echidna and even Enerjak.   

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