GUN in Forces

[havikinazuma]

Where is GUN in Sonic Forces? Where are the humans at all? I felt that was stupid to only show animal people, but no humans. Especially since Eggman took over the entirety of Earth. Why can't they get this sh*t right? Sonic Adventure had police shooting at Chaos 0, but bullets didn't work, and Sonic showed up to help. A scene like this would have showed the whole world, uniting against Eggman. I'm sure they would be effected as well.

They dropped the ball on so many things in this story, it's crazy. Imagine if Knuckles was the leader of all the armies, marching forth. Imagine the phantom ruby pulled out Perfect Chaos everywhere, or Giant Zavok with the deadly six, or even just Robots. Anything. They could've dropped Super Shadows, Neo Metal Sonic, a damn GUN Truck. It's ridiculous.  

Can you imagine Mephilis showing up? or Iblis? Or Dark Gaia? Time Eater? They could've involved the Chaos Emeralds. They could've showed Sonic beat down from the torture, and progressively bring his attitude back over time. I have too many ideas....

 

...not sure if their good though. I feel they could've done more, but who knows?

 

Btw Where is GUN in Sonic Forces?

[superman43]

GUN is nowhere. I smell that the "Eggman took over all of the world" was misleading from the beginning. I think that Eggman only took over the South Island and that´s it. So there is no need for humans to be there or anything else.

[havikinazuma]

13 minutes ago, superman43 said:

GUN is nowhere. I smell that the "Eggman took over all of the world" was misleading from the beginning. I think that Eggman only took over the South Island and that´s it. So there is no need for humans to be there or anything else.

Man what a watse of a story... So much could've been done. 

[Blue Blood]

Personally speaking, I've next liked GUN and their presence in the series. Humans are absolutely fine, but literally "the army" fighting the "terrorist" Eggman has absolutely nothing to do with what I think Sonic should be. It clashes horribly. Anytime that a Sonic game tries to mature, it comes off as ham fisted. The plots of SA2, ShTH and '06 were all just awful.

Forces doesn't have GUN because SEGA don't care for consistency, and in this case they wanted to present a story about a small rag-tag resistance of animals taking back the world from Eggman and Infinite. It doesn't make any sense that GUN were totally MIA, but you've got to accept that there's no enduring plot points in the series anymore. Each game is its own isolated story that may or may not reference anything else. Forces' representation of the world is just six or seven different environments, it makes no mention of the Emeralds or Angel Island and it doesn't even properly tie in to Mania (Classic Sonic from a different dimension and the Phantom Ruby does what?).

When Sonic stories have inconsistencies between games these days, you just have to ignore it. The explanation is just that SEGA wanted to do it differently  

[Razule]

37 minutes ago, havikinazuma said:

Where is GUN in Sonic Forces? Where are the humans at all? I felt that was stupid to only show animal people, but no humans. Especially since Eggman took over the entirety of Earth.

According to Iizuka, the series takes place on two worlds, a human and an animal world depending on the setting of the game. GUN is on the human world, thus not in Forces, thus Forces isn't on Earth. It's.. dumb

Like Blue Blood said, series just isn't consistent. There's just not much of a continuiry anymore.

 

[superman43]

9 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Personally speaking, I've next liked GUN and their presence in the series. Humans are absolutely fine, but literally "the army" fighting the "terrorist" Eggman has absolutely nothing to do with what I think Sonic should be. It clashes horribly. Anytime that a Sonic game tries to mature, it comes off as ham fisted. The plots of SA2, ShTH and '06 were all just awful.

Forces doesn't have GUN because SEGA don't care for consistency, and in this case they wanted to present a story about a small rag-tag resistance of animals taking back the world from Eggman and Infinite. It doesn't make any sense that GUN were totally MIA, but you've got to accept that there's no enduring plot points in the series anymore. Each game is its own isolated story that may or may not reference anything else. Forces' representation of the world is just six or seven different environments, it makes no mention of the Emeralds or Angel Island and it doesn't even properly tie in to Mania (Classic Sonic from a different dimension and the Phantom Ruby does what?).

When Sonic stories have inconsistencies between games these days, you just have to ignore it. The explanation is just that SEGA wanted to do it differently  

Every plot that featured Eggman using something to get rid of Sonic was awful. I mean what´s the point of it ? Sonic 1, 2, CD, 3, &K and then far far after Colors had Eggman doing everything by himself and the plot wasn´t f***ed up. Mania did a compromise. Eggman did all by himself except when he sent Hard-Boiled Heavies to deal with Sonic and co. when he needed some time. Heavy King betrayal was a bit unnecessary, but at least it added something to the ending climax.

5 minutes ago, Razule said:

According to Iizuka, the series takes place on two worlds, a human and an animal world depending on the setting of the game. GUN is on the human world, thus not in Forces, thus Forces isn't on Earth.

 

Sure, the map we see is one... continent ? island ? I would say it´s South Island. Not only because of Green Hill, but the EE Fortress is basically a Scrap Brain rip-off (and Metallic Madness)

[havikinazuma]

9 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Personally speaking, I've next liked GUN and their presence in the series. Humans are absolutely fine, but literally "the army" fighting the "terrorist" Eggman has absolutely nothing to do with what I think Sonic should be. It clashes horribly. Anytime that a Sonic game tries to mature, it comes off as ham fisted. The plots of SA2, ShTH and '06 were all just awful.

I agree with just about everything you said. I have a different opinion of the first part though.

I don't feel GUN clashes, or even goes against Sonic's focus. Eggman's focus is on the world. He plans on destroying it, by wiping out all life.The world created it's own protection, as Sonic and friends aren't known far and wide around the world,  or idf known, not always around. It makes absolute sense for people to want to protect themselves. Hell, it even gives Sonic more reason to to protect it from Eggman, as he would think of it as his duty. As Sonic saves the world, the world come to know their safety is fine as long as Sonic's around. If he's not... They would rise to the occasion. 

About the serious story of Sonic Games, it's not impossible to work it. They need better writers. 

I draw parallels to Dragon ball a lot, because the worlds are similar. Earth with both Humans, and Anthropomorphic animals. As well as regular animals too.

11 minutes ago, Razule said:

According to Iizuka, the series takes place on two worlds, a human and an animal world depending on the setting of the game. GUN is on the human world, thus not in Forces, thus Forces isn't on Earth. It's.. dumb

Like Blue Blood said, series just isn't consistent. There's just not much of a continuiry anymore.

 

Man... They need a continuity editor. Someone to look after the consistency. 

[Razule]

3 minutes ago, superman43 said:

Sure, the map we see is one... continent ? island ? I would say it´s South Island. Not only because of Green Hill, but the EE Fortress is basically a Scrap Brain rip-off (and Metallic Madness)

There's no logic to maps in Sonic games because it changes every game. If we take Forces' seriously, that one continent is basicaly the entire planet. I don't even think there is a South Island anymore.. it's just Green Hill. 

[superman43]

8 minutes ago, Razule said:

There's no logic to maps in Sonic games because it changes every game. If we take Forces' seriously, that one continent is basicaly the entire planet. I don't even think there is a South Island anymore.. it's just Green Hill. 

And that happens when novices are guided in level design by guy who was a co-designer of Lost World and I think in the sense of story it was the same.

Simply there IS no one left that could have guided the guys that made Sonic Forces and tell them what is not good. In terms, we are in far worse situation than Sonic ´06. Sonic ´06 was "good luck with that", so the people that could have been guides for Sonic ´06 clearly didn´t want to be involved. Now, there is simply no one left.

[Tails spin]

1 hour ago, superman43 said:

GUN is nowhere. I smell that the "Eggman took over all of the world" was misleading from the beginning. I think that Eggman only took over the South Island and that´s it. So there is no need for humans to be there or anything else.

Well Chemical plant is on West Side Island so I guess that small island in forces is westside island. Plus seaside hill is mentioned by Espio in a cutscene. But I agree that it looks like Eggy to over half of the world.

[DabigRG]

Because there are two worlds.

Or Eggman/Infinite demolished them, mayhap.

1 hour ago, havikinazuma said:

Where is GUN in Sonic Forces? Where are the humans at all? I felt that was stupid to only show animal people, but no humans. Especially since Eggman took over the entirety of Earth. Why can't they get this sh*t right? Sonic Adventure had police shooting at Chaos 0, but bullets didn't work, and Sonic showed up to help. A scene like this would have showed the whole world, uniting against Eggman. I'm sure they would be effected as well.

They dropped the ball on so many things in this story, it's crazy. Imagine if Knuckles was the leader of all the armies, marching forth. Imagine the phantom ruby pulled out Perfect Chaos everywhere, or Giant Zavok with the deadly six, or even just Robots. Anything. They could've dropped Super Shadows, Neo Metal Sonic, a damn GUN Truck. It's ridiculous.  

Can you imagine Mephilis showing up? or Iblis? Or Dark Gaia? Time Eater? They could've involved the Chaos Emeralds. They could've showed Sonic beat down from the torture, and progressively bring his attitude back over time. I have too many ideas....

 

...not sure if their good though. I feel they could've done more, but who knows?

 

Btw Where is GUN in Sonic Forces?

There is a wasted opportunities thread most of this post would've been better suited for.

[MetalSkulkBane]

One word: budget.

It's obvious it was too small to begin with. Making human models would be wasting precious resorces. Yes, it would be nice if Rouge threw a single line "GUN was defeated" or something like that, but overall  I don't blame Sega for not putting them. We had enough people not doing anything in this game.

[JezMM]

2 hours ago, Tails spin said:

Well Chemical plant is on West Side Island so I guess that small island in forces is westside island. Plus seaside hill is mentioned by Espio in a cutscene. But I agree that it looks like Eggy to over half of the world.

The fact that the island on the map is TINY compared to the presumed South Island (which itself may be smaller than we imagine, look at the way the levels are laid out in each stage theme's region and you can see pretty much no portion of the landmass goes unseen here), it's pretty clear that the Chemical Plant in Forces is not the same one from 2, Generations and Mania.  The original Chemical Plant has clearly been built in the middle of a city, whereas this one is out in a very cold region of ocean.

If we want to salvage some consistency to the lore here (as always, the real reason is likely "the developers just wanted to do Chemical Plant differently this time"), we have to assume that the Chemical Plant in Forces is a newly built one.

[McGroose]

So there are two worlds, except there are now three eras: Classic, Modern and Boom. Modern has the two worlds, but Classic and Boom only have one, except Classic went into the non-human world of Modern Sonic's continuity. There is only one variation of Classic Sonic but Classic Sonic eventually turns into two different variations of Modern Sonic, a Modern Sonic who went through both the human world and the animal world (Generations) in a game. Classic Sonic is a younger version of Modern Sonic but is also a Sonic from another dimension as well, even though the dialogue from Forces clearly indicates that this is the same Classic Sonic that Modern met via the time travel gimmick.

wut

[Pengi]

4 hours ago, Razule said:

According to Iizuka, the series takes place on two worlds, a human and an animal world depending on the setting of the game. GUN is on the human world, thus not in Forces, thus Forces isn't on Earth. It's.. dumb

Like Blue Blood said, series just isn't consistent. There's just not much of a continuiry anymore.

 

 

I really dislike the "two worlds" idea. I'm glad it hasn't actually been stated within the games, so they have the wiggle room to go back to how it was in Sonic Adventure.

 

There's a lot that doesn't add up if you apply the Human World/Sonic World idea to previous games. In Sonic Adventure, the Knuckles Tribe, Chaos, the Chao and the Chaos Emeralds were all in based in the Mystic Ruins region 3000 years ago - a chunk of that region became Angel Island. But Mystic Ruins exists in the same world as the human populated Station Square. Amy is said to live in Station Square. Tails has a workshop in the Mystic Ruins, Big lives in the Mystic Ruins. So is Sonic Adventure set in the Human World or the Sonic World? Does Angel Island also teleport between worlds?

In Sonic Adventure 2, Gerald Robotnik created the Artificial Chaos creatures and an anthropomorphic hedgehog, Shadow. We also know that Gerald had access to Chaos Emeralds.

In Sonic Rush we see Tails' workshop (looking like it does in SA1), Cream's house and a GUN air force carrier full of GUN robots. So do Cream and Vanilla live in the human world, or does GUN have a military presence in the Sonic World?

It's so dumb. It's easier if it's all the same world.

[BlossomHaze]

I'm so confused.

Forces is a different world from the world established in Unleashed? What? *shakes head* Oh, Sonic Team...

Anyway, G.U.N.'s disappearance could just be because they didn't want to add in a subplot of its demise due to Eggman's conquering of the world, but that would mean they went the extra mile to even consider their presence in the game. And since there aren't any humans, it would be odd to have G.U.N. in the game anyway (unless G.U.N. is suddenly run by anthropomorphic animals). Just... what?

[King Scoopa Koopa]

See, G.U.N. is over here, while Eggman is over there, and "over there" has to stand for itself...

[havikinazuma]

I got another thread going up about the Classic Sonic/Another Dimension thing, but there's only one world. The classics never established a world full of Anthro animals. That was just the cartoons of the 90s. There always had to be humans somewhere, as Eggman exists. There was never a time that was ruled out, and SA1 confirmed it.

[Razule]

1 hour ago, havikinazuma said:

I got another thread going up about the Classic Sonic/Another Dimension thing, but there's only one world. The classics never established a world full of Anthro animals. That was just the cartoons of the 90s. There always had to be humans somewhere, as Eggman exists. There was never a time that was ruled out, and SA1 confirmed it.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2017/06/10/more-burning-questions-about-the-sonic-the-hedgehog-franchise-answered.aspx

Quote

It used to be that Eggman was the sole human. Starting with Sonic Adventure, we're seeing more and more humans show up in the stories. Where are they all coming from?

Iizuka: The world that Sonic lives in and the world the humans live in are separate worlds. But, some of the canon games do have Sonic and humans together, and part of that is based on what world is being portrayed when the game is developed. There are kind of different worlds that do exist and sometimes there's some crossover.

 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, havikinazuma said:

I got another thread going up about the Classic Sonic/Another Dimension thing, but there's only one world. The classics never established a world full of Anthro animals. That was just the cartoons of the 90s. There always had to be humans somewhere, as Eggman exists. There was never a time that was ruled out, and SA1 confirmed it.

Pretty sure there were other humans in AoStH and SatAM's third season would've revealed that Robotnik and Snively were originally from Earth before they played a hand in causing some sort of major catastrophe to the planet and that Mobius is actually future Earth reborn from that devastation.

[Almar]

6 minutes ago, Razule said:

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2017/06/10/more-burning-questions-about-the-sonic-the-hedgehog-franchise-answered.aspx

 

Except that obviously wasn't the intent for the series up until 06. What with the already mentioned Echidnas, Silver living in a future version of Soleanna, Eggman Nega and Silver being from the same future, etc. They're just overcompensating for the backlash against Elise and Gun Commander with their eras just sticking them in another world then ignoring them.

[Razule]

6 minutes ago, Almar said:

Except that obviously wasn't the intent for the series up until 06. What with the already mentioned Echidnas, Silver living in a future version of Soleanna, Eggman Nega and Silver being from the same future, etc. They're just overcompensating for the backlash against Elise and Gun Commander with their eras just sticking them in another world then ignoring them.

Yeah, just giving a source.

[Shadowlax]

• Budget
• They probably actually forgot/didn't care
• In combination with the first two points, they might want to move with with character anchors, like knuckles and the master emerald, and team dark with gun. So they can just be around

[GuyWithThePie]

On 1/12/2018 at 12:59 PM, Pengi said:

I really dislike the "two worlds" idea. I'm glad it hasn't actually been stated within the games, so they have the wiggle room to go back to how it was in Sonic Adventure.

Unfortunately it's all but canon now. The planet in Forces looks nothing like the one in Unleashed. At least with Unleashed's planet looking nothing like the ones in Shadow and Riders (Both of which resemble our actual planet Earth) there was the excuse that Sonic's planet was more of a concept than a central part of the games back then, and so they didn't really need to have a consistent idea of what it looked like.

But with Forces this was a deliberate decision. Unleashed said okay, this is what Sonic's world really looks like, we finally have it all sorted out. And then Forces, the first game to take place back on an actual planet (Lost Hex doesn't count) in nine years, just throws that in the trash, likely to justify the whole "two worlds" thing. And I hate it.

I can't be bothered to check right now, but this has to be a recent change, right? Didn't the planet in Colors and both episodes of Sonic 4 resemble the one from Unleashed?

[Salamander]

I went looking for images of the planet from Colours and Sonic 4, and mostly they seem to be too cloudy to make out any real detail.  I'll say this, though: If those games borrowed the Unleashed geography, it will have been entirely to do with asset reuse and the lack of necessity in actually compiling a rigorous new geography for what was only a blurry background detail.  Forces, on the other hand, actually depended on a world map, as did Unleashed.  And I doubt either of them were developed with the slightest interest in whether they retconned ideas past or were retconned in their turn in future.  Sonic's world is not rigorously-defined or detailed enough for them to ever want to pin down a permanent and unchanging geography because it has never mattered.  The maps are just fluff; just wallpaper.