GUN in Forces

[MetalSkulkBane]

39 minutes ago, Almar said:

Don't be naive. They wouldn't have brought up Two Worlds if there wasn't a grown backlash to non-Eggman human characters. And to a lesser extent, one towards having humans besides Eggman in the games period. Even in Sonic Unleashed there weren't any signs of GUN. And that games was a sorta-reboot.

Face it, GUN is dead for all intents and purposes. At most, the games I'll have some offscreen anthro organization that Team Dark reports to.

1

Unleashes sorta-reboot? That's news to me.

And GUN makes a cameo in Generations, in City Escape.

Yes, there is a high chance we will never see them again. We'll probably never see Battle Armada again. Or Iblis. Ifrit. Metal Knuckles. Heavy and Bomb. Those polar bears from Sonic Rush Adventure. Professor Pickle. Chacron the Chao. Lord Regis.

But it doesn't mean that those characters are suddenly 'not canon'. Until Sega doesn't make some big announcement "what is cannon, what isn't", all those characters exist off-panel. I though Mephiles was gone for good, then Sonic Runners came out. Werehog seemed like a failed experiment, but he keeps appearing in Olympics as mii costume. Even Fang, Bean and Bark came back from the dead, in a weird fashion.

So I'm never assuming that character is 'gone', because we never know if Sega won't have a new whim. For me GUN is no dead-er than Vanilla or Marine.

[Razule]

14 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Those polar bears

Koalas

[MetalSkulkBane]

Just now, Razule said:

Koalas

A Viking polar beers.  Forgot Norman, didn't you?

(making my nerdiest smug face now)

[Razule]

1 minute ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

A Viking polar beers.  Forgot Norman, didn't you?

(making my nerdiest smug face now)

..huh

[Almar]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

What?!  Mind elaborating this?

Lower right.

35 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Unleashes sorta-reboot? That's news to me.

It's obvious. Before release the game's hype made a big deal of how it wouldn't include any of the non-Classic characters. It's plot doesn't connect with any of the 3D games before it.

40 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

And GUN makes a cameo in Generations, in City Escape.

That game also has Blaze remember Crisis City which was from a game that didn't happen now and she wasn't there either.

41 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Yes, there is a high chance we will never see them again. We'll probably never see Battle Armada again. Or Iblis. Ifrit. Metal Knuckles. Heavy and Bomb. Those polar bears from Sonic Rush Adventure. Professor Pickle. Chacron the Chao. Lord Regis.

All of them were either obvious one-shot villains or one-shot NPCs to serve the needs of their game's plot who weren't always in main games either. GUN was relevant for at least 3 main games as a force in the setting then they were absent from Unleashed and haven't been seen outside of an Anniversary Game.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Razule said:

..huh

Admittedly, I was wondering why he mentioned them and not Marine's Koala Crew.

 

Shame we didn't get to see Gardon get a little bit action. Or that Marine still hasn't popped up again after some development.
 

52 minutes ago, Almar said:

Lower right.

 

Ya don't say. How odd.

Any other context you can offer here?

[MetalSkulkBane]

" Don't be naive." " Face it," " It's obvious "

Almar, first I want to ask you to stop talking down to me like you're so mister know-it-all. That kinda kills the discussion.

9 hours ago, Almar said:

It's obvious. Before release the game's hype made a big deal of how it wouldn't include any of the non-Classic characters. It's plot doesn't connect with any of the 3D games before it.

That game also has Blaze remember Crisis City which was from a game that didn't happen now and she wasn't there either.

All of them were either obvious one-shot villains or one-shot NPCs to serve the needs of their game's plot who weren't always in main games either. GUN was relevant for at least 3 main games as a force in the setting then they were absent from Unleashed and haven't been seen outside of an Anniversary Game.

2

 

1 Unleashed: having little connection to previous stories doesn't make it 'reboot'. If Spider-man goes on a adventure where he doesn't meet a single of his supporting characters, it doesn't mean that world is rebooting. Besides, modern characters are back for Colors DS, Generations and stuff.

Sonic 06 is cannon, even if removed from reality. It canonically happened and then canonically was erased. But we don't know if Sonic or Elise don't remember any of this. It's not impossible that Time Eater is messing with time (scratch that: we KNOW that he's messing with reality), so it's not impossible he brought back something that is erased. Doctor Who writing 101.

Ok, what about Master Emerald? It's sorta gone but keeps appearing in spin-off and such. Besides, you're haven't responded to my point about Mephiles or Fang, Bean, and Bark. For years they were forgotten and gone (and never important) only to come back in Mania. 

My problem with your logic is that you're "dealing in absolutes". We can all agree that GUN might never return. But Sega keeps changing their mind all the time, so I'm never saying never. I see little reason to insist otherwise.

[Pengi]

For what it's worth, the relatively recent 25th Anniversary comics had Rouge working for humans.

http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/comic/25th/20160805_001109/

[Swing]

Okay wait... if the modern Sonic games plays in two different alternative worlds, which of the modern Sonic games take place in the same world?

[Razule]

1 hour ago, Swing said:

Okay wait... if the modern Sonic games plays in two different alternative worlds, which of the modern Sonic games take place in the same world?

Human World: Unleashed

Animal World: Colors (that's the first time Iizuka mentioned it anyway), Generations (the party), Lost World, and Forces

(times like these I realize how little games we've had the past decade in comparison to when we got one every year)

[Shadowlax]

7 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Unleashes sorta-reboot? That's news to me.

And GUN makes a cameo in Generations, in City Escape.

Yes, there is a high chance we will never see them again. We'll probably never see Battle Armada again. Or Iblis. Ifrit. Metal Knuckles. Heavy and Bomb. Those polar bears from Sonic Rush Adventure. Professor Pickle. Chacron the Chao. Lord Regis.

But it doesn't mean that those characters are suddenly 'not canon'. Until Sega doesn't make some big announcement "what is cannon, what isn't", all those characters exist off-panel. I though Mephiles was gone for good, then Sonic Runners came out. Werehog seemed like a failed experiment, but he keeps appearing in Olympics as mii costume. Even Fang, Bean and Bark came back from the dead, in a weird fashion.

So I'm never assuming that character is 'gone', because we never know if Sega won't have a new whim. For me GUN is no dead-er than Vanilla or Marine.

Gun will be canon untill the reboot shadow's backstory.

If they do that, then gun's extra dead

10 hours ago, FFWF said:

I more or less assumed that Shadow, Rogue, and Omega's association with GUN was on a freelance basis.  When a mission suits their particular talents, they get called on and could theoretically refuse.  I would imagine they're an informal anti-Eggman task force who aren't given any missions they wouldn't have taken on independently, except with GUN they have better resources and backup.

That's how I see. I just think rouge tends to work for them more often than the other two . Though the comics made it seemed like they actually worked for gun? Then again Ian admitted he couldn't ascertain what sega even wanted to do with them. So its up in the air

[Swing]

10 hours ago, Razule said:

Human World: Unleashed

Animal World: Colors (that's the first time Iizuka mentioned it anyway), Generations (the party), Lost World, and Forces

(times like these I realize how little games we've had the past decade in comparison to when we got one every year)

So.... if Sonic from Colors is its own separate continuity. That means that we have technically 5 alternative worlds.

1. Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles, CD and Mania

2. Adventure 1, Adventure 2, Heroes and Shadow 

3. Sonic 06 (which is it's own rebooted story) 

4. Unleashed 

5. Colors, Generations, Lost World, Forces

[MetalSkulkBane]

58 minutes ago, Swing said:

So.... is Sonic from Colors on its own separate continuity. That means that we have technically 5 alternative worlds.

1. Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles, CD and Mania

2. Adventure 1, Adventure 2, Heroes and Shadow 

3. Sonic 06 (which is it's own rebooted story) 

4. Unleashed 

5. Colors, Generations, Lost World, Forces

Hmmm, not really.

First, what about Sol Dimension? Or even books, Imaginary world, that place in Rivals 2? The number of alternative worlds is endless, it just happens one has Classic Sonic, the other has Modern Sonic.

Secondly, as far as we know SA2, SA2, Shadow, 06, Unleashes all took place on "Earth" (Heroes probably too, but no evidence), while Colors, Generations, Lost World, Forces took place on "Mobius".  Which BTW, means that some locations (Green Hills, Chemical Plant) are in both worlds, but let's no go there.

Lastly, remember that Modern Sonic went through 1,2,3, CD games as well. That Death Egg came from somewhere. So the first games are canon for both Sonics, with Mania being first exclusive game for Classic Sonic (...or at least this is how I understand all of this.)

[Almar]

On 1/20/2018 at 3:10 PM, DabigRG said:

Any other context you can offer here?

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Rivals/Gallery

As I said, it's Rivals concept art

On 1/20/2018 at 3:26 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

1 Unleashed: having little connection to previous stories doesn't make it 'reboot'. If Spider-man goes on a adventure where he doesn't meet a single of his supporting characters, it doesn't mean that world is rebooting. Besides, modern characters are back for Colors DS, Generations and stuff.

I said "sorta-reboot." That suggests it's not a full reboot but still close to one. It also had a radically different philosophy for the humans and world around than the 3D games besides Heroes (which was meant to callback to the Genesis days).

On 1/20/2018 at 3:26 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Sonic 06 is cannon, even if removed from reality. It canonically happened and then canonically was erased. But we don't know if Sonic or Elise don't remember any of this. It's not impossible that Time Eater is messing with time (scratch that: we KNOW that he's messing with reality), so it's not impossible he brought back something that is erased. Doctor Who writing 101.

Silver doesn't show he recalls 06 in Rivals.

On 1/20/2018 at 3:26 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Ok, what about Master Emerald? It's sorta gone but keeps appearing in spin-off and such. Besides, you're haven't responded to my point about Mephiles or Fang, Bean, and Bark. For years they were forgotten and gone (and never important) only to come back in Mania.

It's latest appearance is in a comic of dubious canonicity. And spinoffs have already scrapped the bottom of the barrel to buff their rosters. As for Mania's illusion cameo, I suggest you wait until Mania 2 to see if there's anything more to that.

On 1/20/2018 at 3:26 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

My problem with your logic is that you're "dealing in absolutes". We can all agree that GUN might never return. But Sega keeps changing their mind all the time, so I'm never saying never. I see little reason to insist otherwise.

Their absence in Unleashed and now Forces strongly hints that Sonic Team has unofficially retired GUN. It'd be easy enough to just stick in a talk where Rouge says GUN is keeping an eye on Sonic Planet and so ordered her to do what she can can to keep Eggman in check. But there isn't.

21 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Gun will be canon untill the reboot shadow's backstory.

If they do that, then gun's extra dead

That's honestly the best case for GUN not being shoved out of canon yet. That is, Shadow's backstory (and Sonic Adventure 2) is currently too entwined with GUN for it to be retconned.

I'll point out against that Sonic Boom included Shadow without GUN (or humans besides Eggman), complete with him having teleportation without Chaos Emeralds. Even if a failed reboot, it opens the question if Sonic Team would look into ways to retcon Shadow to be more in line with the current world.

 

 

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, Almar said:

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Rivals/Gallery

As I said, it's Rivals concept art

 

Alright, thanks dawg!

5 minutes ago, Almar said:

 

Silver doesn't show he recalls 06 in Rivals.

s-/He specified Sonic and Elise.

5 minutes ago, Almar said:

It'd be easy enough to just stick in a talk where Rouge says GUN is keeping an eye on Sonic Planet and so ordered her to do what she can can to keep Eggman in check. But there isn't.

...Yet.

[DabigRG]

On 1/20/2018 at 6:09 PM, Pengi said:

For what it's worth, the relatively recent 25th Anniversary comics had Rouge working for humans.

http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/comic/25th/20160805_001109/

The Knuckles, Espio, Metal Sonic, and Sticks ones were pretty funny.

And the Cream, Shadow, Tikal, Chao, and Dr. Nega ones were nice as well.

[MetalSkulkBane]

4 hours ago, Almar said:

Silver doesn't show he recalls 06 in Rivals.

It's latest appearance is in a comic of dubious canonicity. And spinoffs have already scrapped the bottom of the barrel to buff their rosters. As for Mania's illusion cameo, I suggest you wait until Mania 2 to see if there's anything more to that.

Their absence in Unleashed and now Forces strongly hints that Sonic Team has unofficially retired GUN. It'd be easy enough to just stick in a talk where Rouge says GUN is keeping an eye on Sonic Planet and so ordered her to do what she can can to keep Eggman in check. But there isn't.

2

Blaze doesn't remember 06 either, she just has weird, deja vu (and it only happens during Generations). But okay that's beside the point.

So what is the cannon for you? Only stuff that appeared in main console games... but not Forces comics, not Generations nostalgia trip, not Mania illusions appearances, and not characters that were cannon in 2005, because they should be visible now.

Hey, remember when Big the Cat was going to retire?

That sure didn't stick. Talk all you want about 'spin-off not counting', but  In Lego Dimension isn't a tiny cameo. It's big showcase of Sonic to non-fans, Big is walking, talking and playing as big role as Shadow or Knuckles.

Different example, remember Koopaling from Mario. They were sure a big thing, Mario 3, Mario World, that cartoon, tons of spin-offs. And then they just disappeared for many games. With Bowser Jr one could assume they are no longer cannon. And then BAM, they back with no explanation where they were. So it makes perfect sense to meet to assume GUN is 'out there' rather than keep changing Sonic's cannon every 5 years in my head.

[Shadowlax]

Ok So a few issues. 

1) Lego is a small cameo. Lega technically speaking representing franchises, but at the same time its not. Its like saying Lego batman movie represents batman, it doesn't. Batman hasn't used a lot of the villains mentioned as jokes in lego batman in years possible decades in any serious manner. And that's what Big was, big's a joke. Just like shadow picking flowers and knuckles singing his own theme song, its a funny joke in a side game that isn't representative of the actual product but could possibly allow for others to invest in other things relating to the actual product and maybe the main product itself.And I think what really speaks to this is big still hasn't made an official appearance yet, its just been in lego. Its almost as if its a fun joke game, and the fun joke guy who runs the twitter argued for it and that's all it was. But when it comes representing the franchise in a real game that didn't happen. Just like...everything in lego batman. So yeah, it was a small cameo that was a joke, its especially small considering the game didn't do so hot and its stopped now. 

2) And I say this with hate, in what reality do you live in where the koopalings are comparable to gun in any way shape or form? And this isn't hate for you, not even gun really, for the koopalings. I hate the koopalings, hate them, except for ludwig recently. But generally I hate them alot, I think they are nothings and Bowser Jr was a better execution of the concept. That said, while they aren't as popular as Jr or Rosalina , or wario with his myriad spin off games, people like them. No one likes gun, gun isn't enough of a thing for people to like. The only think people kind of liked about gun, KIND OF, was topaz, and that went away as soon as shadow arrived because.. they didn't need that character in sonic x anymore. Let alone sonic X being decade + removed from what is the representative of sonic as a brand. Gun is in now away comparable to koopalings

3) While I don't think sega is going to retire gun anytime soon.I don't think GUN is any position where people are clamoring for it back, and gun like gerald are two things that in the hypothetical scenario that actually reboot sonic , you don't really need.