GUN in Forces

[Darth InVaders]

GUN was there, it just went unmentioned. GUN is a part of the United Federation. Rouge and Shadow work for or with GUN... sometimes. In Episode Shadow, Rouge mentions getting intel from the Intelligence Division, which would have to be a part of either GUN or the greater United Federation. The places where humans dominate were not narratively important in Forces so there were no humans in Forces. Even if someone in Sonic Team said that there are two worlds in Sonic, one dominated by humans and the other by anthros like Sonic, that does not necessarily mean there are two planets (more like how real life has "first world" and "third world" countries - "second world" died with the Soviet Union since these terms are leftovers from the Cold War).

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

GUN was there, it just went unmentioned. GUN is a part of the United Federation. Rouge and Shadow work for or with GUN... sometimes. In Episode Shadow, Rouge mentions getting intel from the Intelligence Division, which would have to be a part of either GUN or the greater United Federation. The places where humans dominate were not narratively important in Forces so there were no humans in Forces. Even if someone in Sonic Team said that there are two worlds in Sonic, one dominated by humans and the other by anthros like Sonic, that does not necessarily mean there are two planets (more like how real life has "first world" and "third world" countries - "second world" died with the Soviet Union since these terms are leftovers from the Cold War).

Good point.

I didn't really consider that. But then again, that's probably a reflection of whatever the official portrayal is now.

[Eurisko]

Everything is canon

[DabigRG]

17 minutes ago, Eurisko said:

Everything is canon

Pretty much.

Except arguably Iblis, Mephiles, their monsters, and maybe Solaris.

 

[Blue Blood]

9 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Except arguably Iblis, Mephiles, their monsters, and maybe Solaris.

They're canon. All of '06 is canon and actually happened. You have the entire Sonic timeline up to the cutscene where Elise blows out Solaris' flame, then the entire timeline again except this time '06 is only the final cutscene. In order for time to have been reset, the events needed to have happened. "No longer exists" isn't the same as "non-canon".

[DabigRG]

11 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

They're canon. All of '06 is canon and actually happened. You have the entire Sonic timeline up to the cutscene where Elise blows out Solaris' flame, then the entire timeline again except this time '06 is only the final cutscene. In order for time to have been reset, the events needed to have happened. "No longer exists" isn't the same as "non-canon".

Fair enough. 

Plus, Generations shows that Crisis City(which is vaguely implied to be future Soleanna) still exists somewhere within time and space, so there's that too.

[Shadowlax]

i've come to terms with sega didn't know what to do with all of shadow's accouterments years ago , and are probably going to casually decide it doesn't exist at some point

[Swing]

No joke. I thought GUN was written out of the Sonic canon. I actually lost my track when it comes to that. What is actually canon in this series? 

[DabigRG]

24 minutes ago, Swing said:

 What is actually canon in this series? 

Whatever SEGA says at the time.

[Swing]

6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Whatever SEGA says at the time.

I'm sorry. But that is not how story telling works. You can not recon every 3-5 years your main series.

[DabigRG]

Just now, Swing said:

I'm sorry. But that is not how story telling works. You can not recon every 3-5 years your main series.

I know that, but do they? That is the question.

 

Also, Sonic R is canon.

[Razule]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I know that, but do they? That is the question.

 

Also, Sonic R is canon.

Everything is canon

[Almar]

On 1/18/2018 at 12:49 PM, Darth InVaders said:

GUN was there, it just went unmentioned. GUN is a part of the United Federation. Rouge and Shadow work for or with GUN... sometimes. In Episode Shadow, Rouge mentions getting intel from the Intelligence Division, which would have to be a part of either GUN or the greater United Federation. The places where humans dominate were not narratively important in Forces so there were no humans in Forces. Even if someone in Sonic Team said that there are two worlds in Sonic, one dominated by humans and the other by anthros like Sonic, that does not necessarily mean there are two planets (more like how real life has "first world" and "third world" countries - "second world" died with the Soviet Union since these terms are leftovers from the Cold War).

1. The Intelligence Division would obviously be somewhere on Sonic Planet.

2. Graff's words point to another world. Not just a geopolitical term for one country or set of them.

[MetalSkulkBane]

17 hours ago, Swing said:

No joke. I thought GUN was written out of the Sonic canon. I actually lost my track when it comes to that. What is actually canon in this series? 

Sega never really "written anything out of a cannon". They only put new facts that in practice remove old canon (like Nega being from the future). And even then, it's save to assume Rush still happened in exactly same fashion and Nega was just lying.

So if there is no proof that GUN no longer exists, it exists. Just off-camera.

It's not that hard. In Fantastic Four #7 they visited planet X and helped some aliens. Let's assume that for 40 years those aliens never appeared again. Those that mean they no longer exist? No, they just mind their own business, same like a boy named Kuba I meet in primary school and haven't seen ever since.

I get that worldwide military and law enforcement organization is somewhat harder to ignore, but Sonic games don't have newspaper laying around or radio broadcasts listen to. Our view of his world is limited to what is a focus of the current game. Even if Unleashed could easily show some GUN anywhere, with zero continuity errors or alienating newcomers, their absence is not a continuity problem. It's laziness and lack of attention to world-building, but it's not technically a problem.

GUN is doing fine off camera.

Master Emerald is doing fine off camera.

Little Planet was 'off camera" for years until Sonic 4 and Mania. But until then it was doing fine.

[Salamander]

When one happens to be a fan in the unfortunate position of caring about canon considerably more than the creators do, often one does have to make some perhaps unintuitive assumptions in order to preserve the consistency of the continuity - if only for one's personal headcanon and peace of mind.

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 (like Nega being from the future). And even then, it's dave to assume Rush still happened in exactly same fashion and Nega was just lying.

Pretty much. In fact, I don't recall Nega ever directly saying he's from Blaze's World.

[NegaMix]

57 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Pretty much. In fact, I don't recall Nega ever directly saying he's from Blaze's World.

He does refer to Blaze's dimension as "my world" in Sonic Rush. But that was before Rivals seemingly retconned that detail, and Rush Adventure only ever has Nega refer to Blaze's dimension as "this world" instead.

Really, there is no consistent canon for the Sonic games at this point. Trying to 'decipher' it just isn't worth it, if you ask me. Why is GUN not in Forces? Chances are, Sonic Team would just say that "they're on the other world. Forces' world doesn't have GUN."

[Diogenes]

6 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Sega never really "written anything out of a cannon". They only put new facts that in practice remove old canon (like Nega being from the future).

...what is the difference, exactly?

[DabigRG]

11 minutes ago, NegaMetallix said:

He does refer to Blaze's dimension as "my world" in Sonic Rush. But that was before Rivals seemingly retconned that detail, and Rush Adventure only ever has Nega refer to Blaze's dimension as "this world" instead.

 

Oh okay, I didn't remember that.

 

11 minutes ago, NegaMetallix said:

 

Really, there is no consistent canon for the Sonic games at this point. Trying to 'decipher' it just isn't worth it, if you ask me. Why is GUN not in Forces? Chances are, Sonic Team would just say that "they're on the other world. Forces' world doesn't have GUN."

Pretty much this, yeah.

In fact, it may have been what they had in mind with the Two World's thing.

[Dash Speed]

GUN was a big mistake to tie Shadow to as a staple of his character progression, Shadow point(at the end of Shth) is that he's the Ultimate Lifeform that chooses his own path against human forces or any force influence. GUN humanity are as useless as Big the Cat, they always are overpowered by threats like Eggman and other otherworldy foes, they only drag Team Dark down. Shadow involvement with them should have ended and Shadow should have been a wandering lone wolf hero like Sonic only more mercenary based. Rouge probably doesn't need them either, she has a thief background and could be like any arsene lupin archetype could just be incredibly wealthy from years of thief work or is like Lara Croft she goes on personal expeditions and bids ancient artifacts for money or keeps the treasure for itself. Omega is just a sential automaton version of Shadow with more of a terminator angle, all he does is wish for destruction on Eggmans creations or himself.

GUN can't be taken seriously when a blue hedgehog does peace keeping better than they do, they make the entire human race weak and helpless when it's Sonic that ultimately solves everything and sometimes Shadow. So they aren't worthy characters worth any focus on with Shadow, he's better off a anti hero with a sense of justice and self defined laws.

[Salamander]

I more or less assumed that Shadow, Rogue, and Omega's association with GUN was on a freelance basis.  When a mission suits their particular talents, they get called on and could theoretically refuse.  I would imagine they're an informal anti-Eggman task force who aren't given any missions they wouldn't have taken on independently, except with GUN they have better resources and backup.

[DabigRG]

18 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

 Omega is just a sential automaton version of Shadow with more of a terminator angle, all he does is wish for destruction on Eggmans creations or himself.

 

Uh, I think you're mixing him up with Gamma.

Also, an "automaton version of Shadow?"

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

...what is the difference, exactly?

Just the fact that they never make a big official announcement "please ignore this and this story. We're officially declaring it not-cannon."... okay, I think they did it once with Sonic Chronicles.

But every other time, like Classic Sonic being from another dimension, they don't feel like putting a notification for fans. They just put conflicting information and we're forced to accept newer one as official.

This is why the whole 'Shadow and chaos emerald" discussion started: sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between 'retcon' and 'continuity error".

[Almar]

Let's keep for consideration that Rouge wasn't intended to be an actual member of GUN in Sonic Adventure 2. Japanese dialogue calls her the president's special investigator and she's repeatedly at arms with GUN a bit too much to chock it up to doing her job. She was just an outside professional brought in to track Eggman and stuck around him to get closer. Note how she doesn't say anything about bringing the Chaos Emeralds back to GUN or the United Federation's government, just getting them for herself. Her being a full blown member of GUN came about when Sonic X was running and it carried over into the games.

8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Sega never really "written anything out of a cannon". They only put new facts that in practice remove old canon (like Nega being from the future). And even then, it's save to assume Rush still happened in exactly same fashion and Nega was just lying.

So if there is no proof that GUN no longer exists, it exists. Just off-camera.

It's not that hard. In Fantastic Four #7 they visited planet X and helped some aliens. Let's assume that for 40 years those aliens never appeared again. Those that mean they no longer exist? No, they just mind their own business, same like a boy named Kuba I meet in primary school and haven't seen ever since.

I get that worldwide military and law enforcement organization is somewhat harder to ignore, but Sonic games don't have newspaper laying around or radio broadcasts listen to. Our view of his world is limited to what is a focus of the current game. Even if Unleashed could easily show some GUN anywhere, with zero continuity errors or alienating newcomers, their absence is not a continuity problem. It's laziness and lack of attention to world-building, but it's not technically a problem.

GUN is doing fine off camera.

Master Emerald is doing fine off camera.

Little Planet was 'off camera" for years until Sonic 4 and Mania. But until then it was doing fine.

Don't be naive. They wouldn't have brought up Two Worlds if there wasn't a grown backlash to non-Eggman human characters. And to a lesser extent, one towards having humans besides Eggman in the games period. Even in Sonic Unleashed there weren't any signs of GUN. And that games was a sorta-reboot.

Face it, GUN is dead for all intents and purposes. At most, the games I'll have some offscreen anthro organization that Team Dark reports to.

2 hours ago, NegaMetallix said:

He does refer to Blaze's dimension as "my world" in Sonic Rush. But that was before Rivals seemingly retconned that detail, and Rush Adventure only ever has Nega refer to Blaze's dimension as "this world" instead.

Really, there is no consistent canon for the Sonic games at this point. Trying to 'decipher' it just isn't worth it, if you ask me. Why is GUN not in Forces? Chances are, Sonic Team would just say that "they're on the other world. Forces' world doesn't have GUN."

We have Rivals concept art of what looks like an early draft of an Eggman descendent who doesn't look like Nega. I wouldn't be surprised if they just took a new character and turned into Nega.

(I don't complain about it though since Eggman deserves a better Nega Eggman than Eggman Nega)

 

[DabigRG]

19 minutes ago, Almar said:

Let's keep for consideration that Rouge wasn't intended to be an actual member of GUN in Sonic Adventure 2. Japanese dialogue calls her the president's special investigator and she's repeatedly at arms with GUN a bit too much to chock it up to doing her job. She was just an outside professional brought in to track Eggman and stuck around him to get closer. Note how she doesn't say anything about bringing the Chaos Emeralds back to GUN or the United Federation's government, just getting them for herself. Her being a full blown member of GUN came about when Sonic X was running and it carried over into the games.

 

Pretty much. And even in Sonic X, she straight up left when the portal was made available and went back to following her own agenda.

 

21 minutes ago, Almar said:

We have Rivals concept art of what looks like an early draft of an Eggman descendent who doesn't look like Nega. I wouldn't be surprised if they just took a new character and turned into Nega.

(I don't complain about it though since Eggman deserves a better Nega Eggman than Eggman Nega)

 

What?!  Mind elaborating this?