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How is Pontaff's writing viewed now?


ShadowSJG

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American writers cant write good stories (though I say Pontaff as a whole absolutley dont deserve half the bile they get from the fandom) Jappanese writers cant write either, as Forces has shown. Im very much in full nihlism mode currently with this series so I see no real point in pointing figures or asking for a replacement when I know in my heart whoever new they got would be just as bad or worse. ill stick following my ian flyn Sonic comics then hoping for change/improvement that wont ever happen.

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It's kind of funny really. Even after Forces, so many people still think Pontaff have been writing the games in full since Colors and demanding the return to Japanese writing when really.. we're screwed either way.

We can blame the more cringier jokes and Lost World's story on Pontaff, but we can blame the overall... everything in every game besides Lost World on SEGA.

8 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

“Enjoy your future. It’s gonna be great.”

It's not like it's that different in Japanese..

"Hey Sonic! Enjoy your future! Fun things are waiting for you!"

I mean, it's less of an un-self aware sounding lie, but it's still basically the same thing

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“Enjoy your future. It’s gonna be great.”

IDK, that would be a really sweet line, in any different fandom that this. And this game as a whole was about celebrating the past, even 06. So I think it's fitting, in denial-sort of way.

I mean saying "except 2005-07" period, this gonna suck" would bitter the ending.

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Something worth remembering is while Pontaff are our only real example of an American writer tackling a Modern Sonic game (I'm not counting Boom since that was approached in multiple, unique ways), saying "Japanese writers" is vague given how many have been involved over the franchise's history:

Akinori Nishiyama - Adventure

Shiro Maekawa - Adventure 2, Heroes, Secret Rings, Zero Gravity, Black Knight

Takashi Iizuka - Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Rivals, Sonic Rivals 2

Hiroshi Miyamoto - Riders, Zero Gravity

Shun Nakamura - Sonic 2006

Masahiko Shiraishi - Zero Gravity

Kiyoko Yoshimura - Unleashed

Otake Yasushi - Free Riders, Colors

Ken Pontac/Warren Graff - Colors, Generations (they are the solely credited writers on this actually, make of that what you will), Lost World

Harumasa Nakajima - Lost World (given what Pontaff have said, I assume Nakajima was essentially localizing their script for the Japanese release, especially given his other credits on say the Boom series)

Eitaro Toyoda - Forces, also served as scenario supervisor on Free Riders

It's not as though there's some single Japanese writer that came back for Forces and proved they don't have the magic touch anymore.

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Didn't know people genuinely hated the "enjoy your future" line. I tought it was just hijacked to make tons of "Lol post Classic Sonic games suck" jokes, but on it's own it's an okay line.


As for my general thoughts on Pontaff, I dunno. I got a hunch that Sonic's problems are way deeper built in the structure of Sega itself and no singular individual can do much about it. So at this point I really don't care who the writer is. Even if we get Ian Flynn or Shiro Maekawa to pen the scenerio, I'll be worried the Sega committee will stretch, smudge, distort and mutilate whatever story they had into another trashpile of good intentions. Altough at least they'll get tiny details better and the characters will feel more natural.
So on that regard I'm hoping a little for more skilled writers. But it'll just be the background details. And let's face it, only hardcore Sonic nerds care about the Details being right, so I doubt this is high priority for Sega.

Pontaff has impressed me, more or less, with the decent little tale in Sonic Boom Fire and Ice. And their Sonic Boom Tv show episode was okay.
So far as comedic low stake random sillyness is concerned, they've become a lot less cringe and I can actually enjoy their writing.

Altough it's telling the only stories I like from them is when they don't even have to try to do anything. Not to mention the Sonic Boom episode still fudged up it's resolution and "moral" of the story as they can't end D-Fects character arc with anything other then an exasperated Sonic shrugging that 'it's complicated".
With a silly comedy as Sonic Boom you can get away with that, but it does little to build any confidence I have in them for handling an actual story were I'm supposed to care about the characters and not just chuckle at empty punchlines in a vacuum.

And to their defense, I think they're good at coming up with ideas, just terrible in plotting and story flow. Just let them write individual ideas on a napkin and then get someone else in to actually turn it into a plot. I'll be fine with that.

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8 hours ago, Soniman said:

American writers cant write good stories (though I say Pontaff as a whole absolutley dont deserve half the bile they get from the fandom) Jappanese writers cant write either, as Forces has shown. Im very much in full nihlism mode currently with this series so I see no real point in pointing figures or asking for a replacement when I know in my heart whoever new they got would be just as bad or worse. ill stick following my ian flyn Sonic comics then hoping for change/improvement that wont ever happen.

How about a British writer?

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1 hour ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Altough it's telling the only stories I like from them is when they don't even have to try to do anything. Not to mention the Sonic Boom episode still fudged up it's resolution and "moral" of the story as they can't end D-Fects character arc with anything other then an exasperated Sonic shrugging that 'it's complicated".
With a silly comedy as Sonic Boom you can get away with that, but it does little to build any confidence I have in them for handling an actual story were I'm supposed to care about the characters and not just chuckle at empty punchlines in a vacuum.

To be fair, 11 minutes probably wasn't enough which I now suspect might be a factor for Sticks' absence during the episode

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There's little improvement Flynn can effect in the writing of the series if he's either to be put on localisation duty only, or not integrated closely enough with the development team.  The series needs writers who can work directly with the development team every day and at every stage and in the same office, not divided by either geography or language.

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Mixed bag to be honest. While I think some of their choices in regards to the story in Lost World is needless to say, quite questionable at best (those cartoony sound effects like the "POP" when Eggman says "Funny! Why isn't my jetpack working", the "Whoosh" sound effects when Sonic moves his hands quick, and the sound effect when the conch flies away, all throw me off), much of their writing is actually quite good, among the most solid in the series. Sure, some of it may be quite corny and kiddy, but much of it is quite good. By comparison, the Japanese writers responsible for '06, Shadow, Adventure (2) and Heroes had some seriously dreadful lines. Here's a few of the best:

  • Get a load of this!
  • It's no use!
  • We're going to the ARK, so I guess we're going too!
  • All's well that ends well right?
  • Because you just told me, fox boy!
  • I won't give up! It all depends on me! Can't lose, not when I'm so close!
  • Nice smile.
  • I can feel Sonic's presence in the wind.
  • Well then, it'd be a date to DIE for! (Hey, that's my line!)
  • Don't touch it!
  • Because we're Sonic Heroes! (and all related quotes)
  • Yosh (seriously, why did they put this in the game)

I hated Pontaff's approach to writing in Colors, but with time, like the new cast, they have grown on me.

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After Sonic Forces, I’ve been mixed on Pontaff. They definitely don’t deserve the vitriolic hate from most of the Sonic fandom but they’re not particularly great either. I must be one of the few that actually liked Sonic Colours’ story, because it was a breath of fresh air from the dark, moody tryhard shit we got before (Sonic Unleashed, Secret Rings and Black Knight aside!) and yes I liked some of the dialogue between Sonic and Tails. I loved the ending where they fist bump, it’s SO cute! 

Then Sonic Generations came out with its fairly forgettable dialogue and Sonic Lost World which only had one or two scenes I liked but everything else fell flat. That’s where I started to dislike Pontaff and where I got tired of this “haha nothing is serious here let’s all crack jokes” shtick.

Now story wise, Sonic Forces is really messy; it’s trying to be serious and dark again but has gaping plot holes, Tails the weakling and dumb character moments. Of course, Pontaff has nothing to do with this so script wise, it’s...alright! I love the scenes where the Rookie is first introduced to the Resistance and where Sonic is joking around with Infinite. The rest was adequate despite some stupid translations like “Sonic has been TORTURED FOR MONTHS!” or...*shudder* “true dat. “

In the future, I’d like to see Ian Flynn do the localization for a change. Pontaff can stick around I guess, but I’d like to see someone else at the helm for a change. Just for one game at least! Besides, Flynn actually knows about Sonic’s lore and characters unlike Pontaff. 

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5 hours ago, Sir Laptop said:

 By comparison, the Japanese writers responsible for '06, Shadow, Adventure (2) and Heroes had some seriously dreadful lines. Here's a few of the best:

  • Get a load of this!
  • It's no use!
  • We're going to the ARK, so I guess we're going too!
  • All's well that ends well right?
  • Because you just told me, fox boy!
  • I won't give up! It all depends on me! Can't lose, not when I'm so close!
  • Nice smile.
  • I can feel Sonic's presence in the wind.
  • Well then, it'd be a date to DIE for! (Hey, that's my line!)
  • Don't touch it!
  • Because we're Sonic Heroes! (and all related quotes)
  • Yosh (seriously, why did they put this in the game)

 

Oh, come on, dude--barely half of those are actually any bad.

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15 hours ago, ShadowSJG said:

Why do you say that?

Because of his recent work on the comics and Boom, which doesn’t feel much different from other writers anymore. 

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3 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Because of his recent work on the comics and Boom, which doesn’t feel much different from other writers anymore. 

Examples? Not sure what you're getting at here.

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I honestly don't mind Pontac and Graff. I do think Colors is their best work, and I'm probably one of the very few to enjoy Lost World's story. Colors is a relatively simple yet fun story, with a few cringy jokes here and there. Lost World I enjoy for Sonic's characterization, although I do agree how Tails is written drags the plot down.

I'm not really offended by their work, but that's probably because I've never loved the story in Sonic games, aside from Black Knight. Maybe I need to read more of the Sonic comics, IDK.

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17 hours ago, Sir Laptop said:

Mixed bag to be honest. While I think some of their choices in regards to the story in Lost World is needless to say, quite questionable at best (those cartoony sound effects like the "POP" when Eggman says "Funny! Why isn't my jetpack working", the "Whoosh" sound effects when Sonic moves his hands quick, and the sound effect when the conch flies away, all throw me off), much of their writing is actually quite good, among the most solid in the series. Sure, some of it may be quite corny and kiddy, but much of it is quite good. By comparison, the Japanese writers responsible for '06, Shadow, Adventure (2) and Heroes had some seriously dreadful lines. Here's a few of the best:

  • Get a load of this!
  • It's no use!
  • We're going to the ARK, so I guess we're going too!
  • All's well that ends well right?
  • Because you just told me, fox boy!
  • I won't give up! It all depends on me! Can't lose, not when I'm so close!
  • Nice smile.
  • I can feel Sonic's presence in the wind.
  • Well then, it'd be a date to DIE for! (Hey, that's my line!)
  • Don't touch it!
  • Because we're Sonic Heroes! (and all related quotes)
  • Yosh (seriously, why did they put this in the game)

     
 

Eh, most of them aren't bad at all. What's even wrong with 'don't touch it'? A meme doesn't not equal 'bad'. "It's no use" is only bad because of repetition.

But yes, all main games from SA1 to 06 had a bit weird translation. They just felt...   'Japanese' I guess?

But because of that, the awkward line never stood out that much, since no one talked like real people anyway.

(... admittedly, it not a good thing.)

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At this point, it's clear to me most of the narrative problems with the series are related to the lack of communication between the game designers and the writers than just the writers themselves. So I'll wholly admit to giving them way more hate than they deserve because I doubt they have as much control over this stuff as we think they do.

Now that I understand that, their work on the series wasn't bad. I do appreciate they attempt to give the cast a bit more oomph than what the series generally tries to go for, and while I'm not a huge fan of their attempts at humor, when they hit, it at least gets a chuckle out of me.

I kind of resent this notion that the characters were written as "incorruptibly pure" before though. Like, we had an entire character arc that spanned games of a villain becoming an Anti-hero and having to face his demons of the past. Like, I don't get how that's "incorruptibly pure" at all.

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13 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I kind of resent this notion that the characters were written as "incorruptibly pure" before though. Like, we had an entire character arc that spanned games of a villain becoming an Anti-hero and having to face his demons of the past. Like, I don't get how that's "incorruptibly pure" at all.

I'm kinda struggling to see the meaning behind that phrase.

But the only characters I'd say really match anywhere in what that describes to me are Sonic in 06(outside of 2 or 3 scenes, maybe) and Cream. That's kinda the point with the latter and even she absentmindedly offends people on occasion. 

Except in Runners, apparently.

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On 1/13/2018 at 12:33 PM, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Altough it's telling the only stories I like from them is when they don't even have to try to do anything. Not to mention the Sonic Boom episode still fudged up it's resolution and "moral" of the story as they can't end D-Fects character arc with anything other then an exasperated Sonic shrugging that 'it's complicated".
With a silly comedy as Sonic Boom you can get away with that, but it does little to build any confidence I have in them for handling an actual story were I'm supposed to care about the characters and not just chuckle at empty punchlines in a vacuum.

It's difficult to have meta humour as well as make it so we care about what's going on. The best way to make it work is to make sure it fits into more than one context, and the non meta joke part isn't a shit joke. Otherwise characters spout shit that makes no sense in their own universe, but only make sense to fans who are watching. Or the meta joke part is the real meat, while the in universe joke they try to tie it into the story is just a shallow stupid joke that conceals a meta joke.

Though I just find a lot of it is just pandering and trying to validate others thoughts to pull strings. A character said something meta I thought about, oh man I'm invested whether it makes sense for them to say that or not. But they said it. But 9 times out of 10 it makes no sense. So you have so much external logic and barely any internal logic, which makes characters completely hollow

Spoiler

......Hollow.....HOLLOW!!....Don't let me go HOLLOOOOW!!!!

 

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Well, I dunno why but the thing I feel is they somehow give me this feeling about being awkward for writing Sonic treating himself as a real being interacting in his own world, they somehow make it stand out like it's supposed to be a joke with no depth more than an actual, inviting and self-relying story. They make the story come out as if the world and the characters have lost all their self-reliance and stuff, and are just throwing jokes around.

One thing I actually liked better in Lost World than their other stuff is the fact it was at least trying a bit to get itself seriously, with some kind of self-reliance and believing to its world. I don't enjoy the game that much but at least it felt more natural to me to follow than for example Colours did.

Considering Forces, I'd say that's something I think Japanese have kind of managed to make work a bit better as far as I'm concerned, and I do hold it as an important part of my gaming experience, since without it I can't get into the story thus however awesome it might be on the other aspects I don't get the full power of it through since it all falls empty to me like a needle-popped balloon.

I hope I managed to make myself understandable, it's hard to explain in English...

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8 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I kind of resent this notion that the characters were written as "incorruptibly pure" before though. Like, we had an entire character arc that spanned games of a villain becoming an Anti-hero and having to face his demons of the past. Like, I don't get how that's "incorruptibly pure" at all.

I was mostly thinking of other heroes (mostly Sonic and Tails, since they actually get enough focus post-'06 to compare with earlier), but even Shadow, well, how much demon-facing does he actually do? Like, he's "evil" in SA2 but not of his own free will and he's basically immediately forgiven once he remembers to be good and switches sides. In Heroes fuck all happens. In ShtH who knows what he's canonically supposed to have done for most of it, but in the end he's on the side of good and again he's basically forgiven for whatever the hell he did. And in '06 he doesn't face shit, satan just tells him that humans will betray him (in a future we'll never see) because people are dicks basically. Nothing bad he does ever really sticks, he's just a poor boy manipulated by Gerald or Black Doom, cruelly rejected by humanity, but he always does the right thing at the end.

14 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I'm kinda struggling to see the meaning behind that phrase.

It's like, how many times did the heroes have something to overcome that wasn't just a bad guy, how many times did they make mistakes with actual consequences, how many times were they even allowed to have weird little quirks or minor flaws?

The answer isn't zero, sure; Tails gains more confidence and independence in both Adventures and Sonic has his rivalry with Shadow and getting tricked into the capsule in SA2. But that's...kind of it, for them? Sonic just sort of wanders through most games not really dealing with any obstacle that isn't solved by homing attacking it. He knows the "right" way to deal with Chaos when Tikal's just going to seal him away again. He's the manic pixie dream 'hog who teaches Elise to love life again. He's literally incorruptible in Unleashed, keeping his personality intact at night unlike others possessed by Dark Gaia's minions even though he got such a concentrated dose of darkness that he physically transforms. And even when he does fail, it's not really his fault; when he gets trapped in the capsule in SA2 or drained at the start of Unleashed or killed in '06's last story that's not really because of any personal failing, it's just because he's not omniscient. And as for Tails, he...just kind of stops mattering as a character after SA2? Like, he's in Heroes, ShtH, '06, and Unleashed, but if he hadn't been not much would change. He has no story to himself and doesn't contribute anything important that I can remember. He's just another furry pinball to throw at robots and the character model they stick in the Tornado's pilot seat.

And so compare to the P&G era. Colors' lighter tone and more casual story let Sonic and Tails loosen up a bit and act more like real people. They can goof around and tell dumb jokes, and sometimes (I emphasize: sometimes) that's okay because the corniness can be endearing. In Lost World, the "real" plot kicks off because of Sonic's mistake; he's cocky and impulsive, so he punts the conch away without realizing he's unleashing 6 powerful assholes without the kind of restraint that Eggman has. Shit gets worse as a direct result of Sonic's actions. And Tails has his own, personal issues to deal with; he's hurt by Sonic trusting Eggman, he gets jealous, and starts acting out. There isn't really a strong resolution to this and you can argue all you want about whether or not it's appropriate or in character or whatever, but I'm way more interested in a story that tries to explore Tails' feelings and allows him to act poorly sometimes over one where he's just...sort of there.

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4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I was mostly thinking of other heroes (mostly Sonic and Tails, since they actually get enough focus post-'06 to compare with earlier), but even Shadow, well, how much demon-facing does he actually do? Like, he's "evil" in SA2 but not of his own free will and he's basically immediately forgiven once he remembers to be good and switches sides. In Heroes fuck all happens. In ShtH who knows what he's canonically supposed to have done for most of it, but in the end he's on the side of good and again he's basically forgiven for whatever the hell he did. And in '06 he doesn't face shit, satan just tells him that humans will betray him (in a future we'll never see) because people are dicks basically. Nothing bad he does ever really sticks, he's just a poor boy manipulated by Gerald or Black Doom, cruelly rejected by humanity, but he always does the right thing at the end.

It's like, how many times did the heroes have something to overcome that wasn't just a bad guy, how many times did they make mistakes with actual consequences, how many times were they even allowed to have weird little quirks or minor flaws?

I think this is true to an extent, but to be fair there's not much room to have a tantrum about Shadow helping out when he switches sides. It's a do or die situation by that point, and you can't really ask for a person to give up more than their life to make up for a mistake. Sonic decides to let the whole thing go since he thinks Shadow did the right thing and he honestly seemed to be having fun having a rival like him around anyway.

From Heroes onward Shadow's relationship with everyone else is kind of weird and never really called into question. This is a missed importunity but Heroes-06 has really bad writing across the board, so..yeah. I like Shadow in SA2 but in heroes-06 he and the other heroes fall into the pitfalls you described.
 

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It's pretty sh*t in my opinion. I hate it with a passion, especially Colours. Colours is the bane of my existance. Lost World's story is still pretty bad, but better. Forces' story was awesome in my opinion, and I think it's what future Sonic games' story should be like. (Or  a mix of Forces' serious tones, and Adventure 2's deep and detailed plot)

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