Tone in the Sonic series

[A person, that exists]

16 minutes ago, A sonic fan said:

Unleashed got it perfect imo 

Well... That is if you don't take Chip into account. Heck, the reason Chip WAS annoying to most people, is because he was a comic relief in a game where ALMOST EVERY CHARACTER WAS A COMIC RELIEF (Eggman, Pickle, Orbot, even Tails to an extent). Not to mention that he sounded like a reject Care Bear in the English vesion.

25 minutes ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

I'm sorry, what!?  Unless you're talking about SatAm Robotnik which you might be since you're bringing up Mobius of all things.  And Sonic Mania is every bit in line with the rest of the classics in terms of tone.  The series began as a blue Felix the Cat recolor fighting a morbidly obese evil Teddy Roosevelt and his army of colorful robots that look like they crawled out of a happy meal.  Any seriousness should be in small, self-aware doses.

Well, this IS the reason why in almost every major Sonic game after the classics (In the Classics nobody really cared WHAT are you fighting against: Battle Kukku, Witchcart or Eggman, because it WAS a Genesis game, after all) he usually takes a back seat. Robotnik works PERFECTLY as a joke villain, (SA, SA2 and Chronicles being the most notable examples), but whenever there IS nothing to counterbalance him, like in Colors, Lost World or Boom Fire and Ice... Then we get Boom TV show Eggman. A pathetic fatty lump with a moustache, who I just wanna give a hug.

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah and Sonic games aren't real life. Your Bowsers and your Wilys and your Eggmans are never treated as they would be if they were actual real-world dictators and terrorists, because they're silly cartoon characters in silly cartoon worlds where justice isn't served through arrests, trials, and imprisonment but through some plucky kid bopping them on the head a few times until they run off to scheme for the sequel.

Actually, Wily was put in prison at the end of MM6. The more you know.

Also, to me the way Bowser's treated is kinda brutal in it's own regard. The bastard gets burned alive, for god's sake! 

[Wraith]

Dr Eggman and Sonic have gotten into serious conflicts but that's because of how heavily they clash ideologically. Him(and Sonic) are lighthearted characters at their core and it's not supposed to be something you think about too hard. It's why Eggman and Sonic often get downplayed if not outright taken out of the more serious conflicts in the Dreamcast era games with most of the weight falling on new characters like Shadow facing off against new villains.. Even with how tone deaf Sonic team was they realized those characters are just not really built for it.

[Dr. Mechano]

"Seriousness" at times is fine, but in my opinion, it has to be earned.

If you just throw a bunch of grim, dark, super-serious stuff at the wall without bothering to endear us to the world or characters first, then why should we care what happens to anyone? I firmly believe that before I can be expected to cry with a character, the writers need to make me laugh with them first, to build my rapport and investment.

This is why I think stories like Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 2006, or Sonic Forces don't really work. They demand to be taken seriously, for audiences to care about the tragedy and direness they present; But they don't do much to make us care about the world or the people in it first.

Compare this to stories like the Mother series, Undertale, or - if you want to go a bit more lighthearted than that - the Mario RPGs. These games certainly veer into some pretty serious, intense, and even dark places at times... but they're also hilarious, and make the audience naturally fall in love with their characters early on. That way, when the serious/sad stuff does happen, it hits hard. Because all that time we spent laughing and smiling at the characters' antics got us attached to them.

And I think that's something the Sonic series just doesn't understand when it tries to tell "serious" stories: To have darkness, you need to have light. 

 

Also, weighing in on the discussion of making Eggman in particular more serious, I have no inherent qualms with that. But my approach wouldn't be to make Eggman some irredeemable monster, but the opposite. My idea of a "more serious" Eggman is an Eggman who has some actual nuance and even sympathetic qualities to him, beyond being a one-dimensional cartoon villain.

By all means, have him do bad things, but show his human side; SA2 actually scratched the surface of this with his childhood adoration of his grandfather, but unfortunately the series usually doesn't like to dig too deep with the guy. And it's too bad, because I think they could do some really interesting stuff with Eggman without resorting to making him a bland one-note "evil for evil's sake" character like his SatAM counterpart.

Sonic X and Boom, for all the flak they get, did kinda humanize Eggman and make him more sympathetic; I'd just like to see a more evenhanded mix of that with some actual menace - creating an Eggman who can hold his own as a compelling antagonist while still having genuinely redeemable qualities and the capacity to care about others to some extent. Basically, throw the games, X, and Boom into a blender and it'd probably be my ideal portrayal of the character.

[Diogenes]

13 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Which you knew full well wasn’t even my point.

And being silly cartoon characters doesn’t stop them from being put under arrest, through trials, imprisonment, and whatnot for their crimes because those are not outside the range of family-friendly franchises, and this dichotomy you have is ridiculous and blatantly dishonest given the loads of such characters being put in those very situations whether it was Bluto from Popeye, Yosimite Sam of the Looney Tunes, or even Tai-Lung from Kung Fu Panda. 

For all your talk of them being cartoons, you of all people should be aware of being arrested and imprisoned or whatever can subject to the same nature. Especially when in many of these cartoons, they are put in all three and then break out of prison for their next scheme.

Are you really going to get on my ass about supposedly missing the point and then think that my point is that trials and jail are inappropriate in cartoons?

My point is that taking Eggman's "death machines" so seriously that you think the character is deserving of death himself is the equivalent of edgy "what if Ash has been in a coma all along?"-type theories that disregard the actual nature and tone of the work to try to insert fake depth through fake maturity. There is no valid reading of the classic games where Eggman is evil enough that the player should want his death.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Are you really going to get on my ass about supposedly missing the point and then think that my point is that trials and jail are inappropriate in cartoons?

Given that’s exactly what you just did earlier...yeah?

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My point is that taking Eggman's "death machines" so seriously that you think the character is deserving of death himself is the equivalent of edgy "what if Ash has been in a coma all along?"-type theories that disregard the actual nature and tone of the work to try to insert fake depth through fake maturity. There is no valid reading of the classic games where Eggman is evil enough that the player should want his death.

I don’t really care what reading is or isn’t valid in the classics, because 1) that wasn’t even my claim in the first place, I just came in to correct the part that oversimplified Eggman as “the scientist that makes ladybug robots” instead of a threat, and 2) aside from S3&K all they have is the generic “Go stop Eggman or else he takes over the world” that’s vague as it is over everything else aside from being the main boss.

If anyone wants to believe Eggman deserves death in the classics, that’s on them.

[Razule]

7 hours ago, ClassicKnuckles said:

Robotnik is supposed to be menacing, and supposed to give you something you truly despise and want to see perish.

But... I don't want to kill him.. he's a classic video game antagonist

[Diogenes]

32 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

I don’t really care what reading is or isn’t valid in the classics,

Okay great so you're just jumping into a conversation without any care for what it's actually about.

[Dr. Mechano]

55 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

If anyone wants to believe Eggman deserves death in the classics, that’s on them.

Well, what did he do in the classics that warrant a death sentence? He didn't kill anybody in those games, did he?

Eggman's first (and so far only) confirmed kill was in SA2, when he destroyed Prison Island - killing at least Flying Dog's pilot, as well as anyone else who happened to be on Prison Island at the time. But in the classic games, Eggman wasn't blowing up populated areas or risking civilian lives. He was invading territory with his goofy band of robots and trying to collect the Chaos Emeralds in order to rule the world. Nasty actions to be sure, but hardly crosses the moral event horizon.

(And I mean, in the anamoly that is SA2, Shadow and Rouge are just as liable for the loss of life on Prison Island as Eggman and I don't see anyone clamoring for their deaths.)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

28 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Okay great so you're just jumping into a conversation without any care for what it's actually about.

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I don’t really care what reading is or isn’t valid in the classics, because 1) that wasn’t even my claim in the first place, I just came in to correct the part that oversimplified Eggman as “the scientist that makes ladybug robots” instead of a threat,

Literally told you what I did which wasn’t that big a deal. That part of the conversation over Eggman warranting death could have stayed just between you and the other guy given that case.

10 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Well, what did he do in the classics that warrant a death sentence? He didn't kill anybody in those games, did he?

You tell me. I’m not the one really asking for his death here.

 

[Chaos Incarnate]

Tone isn't really that big of a dealbreaker in the series for me, but I do think going too dark for Sonic is taking it too far. Sonic isn't really a series I take that seriously to begin with, and it just gets unintentionally hilarious when you get games like Shadow and 06 that take themselves way too seriously. I do think Black Knight does a darker story best, because while Merlina is one of the more grim Sonic villains, the game does have a cheesy yet uplifting message and ending.

That being said, I do love comedy when it's good, and Sonic can work amazingly when executed well as one. AOSTH is amazingly stupid, but it's so wacky and zany that works. Meanwhile, Sonic Boom has amazing self aware humor, even if I'm not the biggest fan of that series.

Either way, I don't think tone and a good or bad story in Sonic games are mutually exclusive. It all falls down to how well the plot achieves what it sets out to do, and whether or not you care about the characters.

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

You tell me. I’m not the one really asking for his death here.

Right, I know.

But you were mentioning people who are, and I was quoting that as a segue into addressing that viewpoint. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you shared that position.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Right, I know.

But you were mentioning people who are, and I was quoting that as a segue into addressing that viewpoint. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you shared that position.

Well if you want to question what he did in the classics to deserve death, like I said before, the stuff that goes on are too vague to even make a solid claim. You can at best make an implication of what he might or could have done, but I operate on the principle of whether you see or hear him doing an act that would warrant such capital punishment.

Given what he’s done afterwards in games like the Adventure series, you could make that case a lot better, but that’s not really territory that I’m all that interested in. Either way, we know what the guy is capable of and that regardless of whether he deserves death, he’s a very dangerous man.

[Multikaris]

45 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Well, what did he do in the classics that warrant a death sentence? He didn't kill anybody in those games, did he?

Eggman's first (and so far only) confirmed kill was in SA2, when he destroyed Prison Island - killing at least Flying Dog's pilot, as well as anyone else who happened to be on Prison Island at the time. But in the classic games, Eggman wasn't blowing up populated areas or risking civilian lives. He was invading territory with his goofy band of robots and trying to collect the Chaos Emeralds in order to rule the world. Nasty actions to be sure, but hardly crosses the moral event horizon.

(And I mean, in the anamoly that is SA2, Shadow and Rouge are just as liable for the loss of life on Prison Island as Eggman and I don't see anyone clamoring for their deaths.)

He killed Tails in 8-Bit Sonic 2. 

[Swing]

I'm also more for lighthearted and cartoony. Sonic is a cartoon. Let's face it guys. They all have cartoony designs and the main antagonist is called "Eggman". If we take this concept and make it super serious than we will end up as something like 06, which pleases no one besides diehard Sonic fans that just everything about the hedgehog. 

The best tone for Sonic is in my eyes the classic tone. Just a silent protagonist, who never talks, living in a lighthearted world full of cartoony and weird levels.

[Dr. Mechano]

37 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

He killed Tails in 8-Bit Sonic 2. 

No he didn't.

Like, people say that Tails dies in the bad ending because his face appears in the sky, I guess. But by that logic, in the good ending, Sonic and Tails die because both their faces appear in the same place.

I see no reason to believe that Eggman killed Tails in that game.

[Multikaris]

1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

No he didn't.

Like, people say that Tails dies in the bad ending because his face appears in the sky, I guess. But by that logic, in the good ending, Sonic and Tails die because both their faces appear in the same place.

I see no reason to believe that Eggman killed Tails in that game.

It is also because he is absent from the proceedings as well, and the Star in his forehead...

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

It is also because he is absent from the proceedings as well, and the Star in his forehead...

Well yeah. he's still missing because Sonic never saved him from Eggman.

But I think it's a pretty big leap to say that this means Eggman killed him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

45 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

He killed Tails in 8-Bit Sonic 2. 

That’s speculation, dude. Not anything confirmed.

Goes back into what I said about these things being too vague.

[Bobnik]

In terms of Modern Sonic, I'm gonna cop out and say "balanced". The main problem with this franchise is that it either goes to one extreme (being too light-hearted for its own good: main examples being AoSTH (I know it counts as Classic era, I just hate this direction for Sonic), Colors imo) or the other (being too serious about stuff - 06, Edgy the Hedgie and to a lesser extent Adventure 2). I think only Unleashed and to a lesser extent Black Knight nailed the balance - they don't try to be very serious, but they also don't try to make everything that's happening insignificant and don't use unfunny and outright cringe-inducing jokes every 10 seconds or so (except for Chip, he was a bit annoying)

I just don't feel like "wacky" and "very comedic" fits Modern iteration of Sonic at all. When someone says "Sonic", the first thing that comes to mind is "adventurous, cocky, fast with some epicness on his journeys", not "wacky, weird, "huehuehue Baldy mcNosehair"".

[EzSonic01]

9 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

I'm sorry, what!?  Unless you're talking about SatAm Robotnik which you might be since you're bringing up Mobius of all things.  And Sonic Mania is every bit in line with the rest of the classics in terms of tone.  The series began as a blue Felix the Cat recolor fighting a morbidly obese evil Teddy Roosevelt and his army of colorful robots that look like they crawled out of a happy meal.  Any seriousness should be in small, self-aware doses.

Just to remark, Mobius was considered Sonic's home planet in the 90s according to Sega of America and early western canon (which was a common element shared among most Sonic media, including the games, cartoons and comics). I don't how true that is now, though. I would like to say Sonic's world is still Mobius but they have decided to avoid using that name for some reason.

---

Answering the question, I think Sonic should be cartoonish and colorful with a mix of some serious (not dark) elements. The concept of a fast hedgehog and his animal friends battling an overweight, egg-shaped evil scientist is not really serious by itself, and shouldn't be: it's funny and comical. The intros of Sonic CD and Mania nail this perfectly.

As an example, the doctor we all know as Robotnik or Eggman was designed like a clown on purpose, so it would be easy for kids to draw. In another case, Knuckles' original color was green, but children wanted it red so they went with that. The usual foes through the games are "badniks", which are robots, and, because of their appeal to the younger audience, were chosen to be the enemies the player finds in the stages.

I do not like anime/shonen tropes in Sonic either, even if a significant chunk of the franchise's history relied on them, and would rather keep these to a minimum. I hate ShTh and '06 by the way, trying too hard to be edgy/melodramatic/cool. There shouldn't be references to war, genocide, blood, or death in Sonic games. Ever. it doesn't fit the style and identity Sonic was originally known for.

[A person, that exists]

28 minutes ago, FairPlay said:

 The concept of a fast hedgehog and his animal friends battling an overweight, egg-shaped evil scientist is not really serious by itself, and shouldn't be: it's funny and comical. 

It CAN work, as long as there is no borderline Mario stuff like in SLW/Terrible food jokes like in the Pontaff games, but only in the Classics though. That kinda stuff FITS here, while doing it with Modern will just turn it into a "Poor man's Mario" or a "Poor Man's Classic Sonic".

Also, in what way is CD's intro funny and comical? To me it's actually way more epic and cool, with Sonic speeding through forests and looking up at a roboticised planet. The ending isn't better either: Sonic saves Amy from a crumbling Eggman Fortress in a COOL, not FUNNY way. And remember Sonic 2 for instance: Sonic BLOWS UP the death egg, and runs away from the explosion. If it was "Funny", then Sonic would make Eggman, I dunno, slip on a banana peel or something. To me Classic's more "Cute but cool", rather than "Funny". 

Also, imo, but Mania's intro is kinda bad. It TRIES to be CD, but it honestly feels more like "Stupid lighthearted nonsense for the sake of stupid lighthearted nonsense", unlike CD's "Show off how COOL Sonic is while showing us the awesome and badass loops he runs through"

33 minutes ago, FairPlay said:

There shouldn't be references to war, genocide, blood, or death in Sonic games. Ever. it doesn't fit the style and identity Sonic was originally known for.

I WOULD understand the concern, if Sonic was at first a Happy-Go-Lucky Mario/Bubsy, and then suddenly became HNK with Sonic and Eggman in it. No, the only games in the series DESIGNED like cute little baby toys were the PICO games, which were made for babies and all. The Megadrive titles were actually kinda the opposite. They were more "War between freedom and slavery/nature and technology", but done in a kid-friendly fashion, so it would be more marketable/due to technical stuff. Notice how the only Happy/Bright level in Sonic 1 is Green Hill. Everything else is ruins/bases/casinos. If Sonic was more like Mario, then we'd definetly have ANOTHER happy green level.

Not to mention, isn't the Death Egg kind of an edgy name? It has the word "Death" in it after all. 

[andrewtuell1991]

4 hours ago, A person, that exists said:

They were more "War between freedom and slavery/nature and technology", but done in a kid-friendly fashion,

Again, It just sounds like people are mentally supplanting Western material (the cartoons and comics) onto the games and looking for things that were never there.  I've played through the classics dozens of times I don't see where this "nature vs technology" thing is that other people seeing.  Yeah some levels take place in nature and others in cities, but it's not done in a way that tries to communicate an environmental message. More like it was done for aesthetic variety / trying to set themselves apart from Mario.

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Notice how the only Happy/Bright level in Sonic 1 is Green Hill. Everything else is ruins/bases/casinos.

Something being a ruin/base/casino (is that what SYZ was?) doesn't exclude it from being happy and bright.  Nothing about Marble's Barney-purple or Labyrinth's golden browns makes me take them anymore seriously than Green Hill.  The only level I might give you is Scrap Brain for its music and black/brown background but even then its foreground is a bright silver-y color that looks more polished than should be expected from a villain that wants to be taken seriously.

Quote

Not to mention, isn't the Death Egg kind of an edgy name? It has the word "Death" in it after all. 

And it also has the word "Egg" in it.

[Multikaris]

3 hours ago, A person, that exists said:

It CAN work, as long as there is no borderline Mario stuff like in SLW/Terrible food jokes like in the Pontaff games, but only in the Classics though. That kinda stuff FITS here, while doing it with Modern will just turn it into a "Poor man's Mario" or a "Poor Man's Classic Sonic".

Also, in what way is CD's intro funny and comical? To me it's actually way more epic and cool, with Sonic speeding through forests and looking up at a roboticised planet. The ending isn't better either: Sonic saves Amy from a crumbling Eggman Fortress in a COOL, not FUNNY way. And remember Sonic 2 for instance: Sonic BLOWS UP the death egg, and runs away from the explosion. If it was "Funny", then Sonic would make Eggman, I dunno, slip on a banana peel or something. To me Classic's more "Cute but cool", rather than "Funny". 

Also, imo, but Mania's intro is kinda bad. It TRIES to be CD, but it honestly feels more like "Stupid lighthearted nonsense for the sake of stupid lighthearted nonsense", unlike CD's "Show off how COOL Sonic is while showing us the awesome and badass loops he runs through"

I WOULD understand the concern, if Sonic was at first a Happy-Go-Lucky Mario/Bubsy, and then suddenly became HNK with Sonic and Eggman in it. No, the only games in the series DESIGNED like cute little baby toys were the PICO games, which were made for babies and all. The Megadrive titles were actually kinda the opposite. They were more "War between freedom and slavery/nature and technology", but done in a kid-friendly fashion, so it would be more marketable/due to technical stuff. Notice how the only Happy/Bright level in Sonic 1 is Green Hill. Everything else is ruins/bases/casinos. If Sonic was more like Mario, then we'd definetly have ANOTHER happy green level.

Not to mention, isn't the Death Egg kind of an edgy name? It has the word "Death" in it after all. 

The 8-Bit Version did have three happy green levels in quick succession (the third had a darker, deeper green to it, but similar happy-slappy music)

59 minutes ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Again, It just sounds like people are mentally supplanting Western material (the cartoons and comics) onto the games and looking for things that were never there.  I've played through the classics dozens of times I don't see where this "nature vs technology" thing is that other people seeing.  Yeah some levels take place in nature and others in cities, but it's not done in a way that tries to communicate an environmental message. More like it was done for aesthetic variety / trying to set themselves apart from Mario.

Something being a ruin/base/casino (is that what SYZ was?) doesn't exclude it from being happy and bright.  Nothing about Marble's Barney-purple or Labyrinth's golden browns makes me take them anymore seriously than Green Hill.  The only level I might give you is Scrap Brain for its music and black/brown background but even it then its foreground is a bright silver-y color that looks more polished than should be expected from a villain that wants to be taken seriously.

And it also has the word "Egg" in it.

Well, Barney might be a bit exaggerating, but I can understand why the color rhythm makes the game kid-friendly. Labyrinth’s Colors exude magnificence to the ruin, as if it were El Dorado. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

(Click for full size).

I would say somewhere around ICO/Most crash games/PS1 era platforms seems about right.

[KHCast]

39 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

(Click for full size).

I would say somewhere around ICO/Most crash games/PS1 era platforms seems about right.

Random question, but where would jrpg ‘s usually go?(like FF, KH,etc) seems like a glaring omission given how they tend to rely most on tone ha