Who are the best villains in the franchise?

[ShadowSJG]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

...yeah. I know that Deadly Six have some fans, but I'm not one of them. Definitely not Zeena's fan. She's not funny or likable like Eggman, cruel or 'hateable' like Mephiles, cool like Metal, not very competent.

Also, one thing stops me from getting my sleep (outside for upcoming exams :/): do Zeti wear clothes? Master Zik seems to have a robe, but that would mean they all wear ridiculous pants and Zeena is topless.

Or she's wearing something made of silk spiderweb

 

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Not even Zavok?

[Splash the Otter]

35 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Other one shots don't feel like they have better writing then Zeena.

I disagree heavily with this statement, but it's 1 AM where I am right now and I'm too tired to keep arguing about a green oni.

[MetalSkulkBane]

He's okay designed, calm (I was sure he's going to be easily angered Bowser-wannabe), mot competent from the team and that's all good I can say about him.

Don't hate him, but he's far below Metal, Eggman, Chaos, Mephiles, or yes, Infinite.

[BaronGrackle]

The Deadly Six are a group entity, like the Hardboiled Heavies. I think they lose a lot of individual characterization by being in a group, but the group itself adds to that characterization.

Even a popular villain group like Organization XIII from Kingdom Hearts... they didn't start out with much more than a single trait and fighting style each.

[Red Hot Jack]

I think one problem with the Deadly Six is that, not only they are a collective entity, but there's too many of them, if they focused on, like, 3 characters, they would have had more screentime and a more focused personality each. I do agree that Zeena has potential, but in the game she just came off as annoying to me. I'd be willing to give her another chance if she appeared in more games. And we do need more villainesses in the Sonic series, someone I loved was Lien-Da from the original Archie series, yeah she was this sort of sexy-female-crazy-assassin and power thirsty stereotype but I loved it, I really need to see more characters like her in the new comics. I really don't think Merlina would fit into a normal Sonic game story because she is simply part of her own universe, she was a one-off for the Arthurian Legend story, a pretty good villain but she doesn't fit Sonic.

I mean, this is my general view on characters in general, I don't really despise anyone, they all deserve better writing and more possibilities to shine. But I felt like the Deadly Six are based too much on japanese stereotypes that I'm not interested in, like Zomom is fat and Zik is arrogant towards the young people, I did like Zor's lines however, kinda funny, I have to say. But the ones I think have the most potential are Zazz with his hyperactive psycho personality, and obviously my favorite: Zavok, with his strategic and collected attitude, cold hearted personality, and something else I liked about him was the fact that he was really confident about his comrades.

But yeah, I liked Infinite more than the Deadly Six, because he was more focused, had a stylishly evil attitude, a bit crazy and creepy, he was kind of like a dictator who relied on power to make himself stronger and more confident, plus he found a way to create fear into his enemies, perhaps his strongest ability. And of course he had cool superpowers which doesn't hurt, I mostly liked the general theme of the illusions, it was something original. Everyone keeps complaining and joking about how stupid is his backstory, but I thought it was decent, it wasn't the usual tragic and sympathetic backstory, it was something else, and gave him a past with Shadow (who keeps creating new villains in some way), so that's a plus.

So, my point: Zavok and Infinite are cool villains, maybe not the best written but they do not deserve hate, and I'm glad Infinite is actually among kids, edgy teens and even regular Sonic fans.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, BaronGrackle said:

The Deadly Six are a group entity, like the Hardboiled Heavies. I think they lose a lot of individual characterization by being in a group, but the group itself adds to that characterization.

Even a popular villain group like Organization XIII from Kingdom Hearts... they didn't start out with much more than a single trait and fighting style each.

Hard Boiled Heavies were meant to be bosses and nothing else. Just like Robot Masters they meet and easily exceed those simple expectations, and that why they're well received.

[BaronGrackle]

Oh, and I keep forgetting. One of my favorite antagonists during the classic era was, of course, Knuckles the Echidna.

[DabigRG]

On 2/11/2018 at 9:16 PM, Fire-N-Space said:

Most characters are defined by a single trait Sonic with running, Tails with machines and Knuckles is hot headed 

 

The things is that those three each debut as a focal point in separate games, with less expectations of them due to the hardware and time period, and they still have a little more to them than some of the Zeti:

 

Sonic was a teenager with an attitude who used his superspeed to fight for freedom and by extension nature. It's not that much on paper, sure, but it's still a defined character in action.

Tails is a mutant orphan who's idolization of Sonic led to him unexpectedly using what was a bullying point about himself to nearly match Sonic's capabilities so he could follow him around on adventures.

And Knuckles was a brawler and something of a trickster who used his knowledge of Angel Island to deter what he understood as invaders out to take the Emeralds' power.

 

Meanwhile, out of the Deadly Six, only Zavok and Zor have any solid personality to them and even then, the former is still able to be considered somewhat bland.

Granted, Zik and Zomom do have a bit of implied nuance to them as well, but they're still primarily defined as Old KungFu-Wizard Master and Obese Oaf most of the time. 

And of course, Zazz and Zeena are the most one-note, with the former actually being one of the more popular of the six because he's a fun one-note and representative one-note.

 

On 2/11/2018 at 9:16 PM, Fire-N-Space said:

 but Zeena and the others were only in one game, still being well written what else would she have done to not be defined by a single trait.

This is very true and I agree that most of the Deadly Six would need more screentime to really come into themselves.

On 2/11/2018 at 9:16 PM, Fire-N-Space said:

She's one of my favorite characters and she's a villain so that's why I'm talking about her.  

Ah, well then, good on you for going with what you like. 

On 2/11/2018 at 11:02 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Also, one thing stops me from getting my sleep (outside for upcoming exams :/): do Zeti wear clothes? Master Zik seems to have a robe, but that would mean they all wear ridiculous pants and Zeena is topless.

Or she's wearing something made of silk spiderweb

 

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Yeah, as far as I can tell, the not-elderly Zeti are all naked. However, I have noticed that their tails all noticeably protrude from their black lower bodies, while Master Zik's tail is also black.

EDIT: Ope, except for Zeena, who's chameleon tail is lighter than the rest of her body and protudes from the green portion of her body, so she may be wearing a skin-colored sweater.

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

The Deadly Six are a group entity, like the Hardboiled Heavies. I think they lose a lot of individual characterization by being in a group, but the group itself adds to that characterization.

Even a popular villain group like Organization XIII from Kingdom Hearts... they didn't start out with much more than a single trait and fighting style each.

Pretty much. Zavok in particular gains some tidbits of depth through his interactions with the rest of them, with Zor and maybe Zeena being the opposite.

3 hours ago, Jack of Tangles said:

I think one problem with the Deadly Six is that, not only they are a collective entity, but there's too many of them, if they focused on, like, 3 characters, they would have had more screentime and a more focused personality each.

This was indeed a significant handicap, unfortunately.

3 hours ago, Jack of Tangles said:

something else I liked about him was the fact that he was really confident about his comrades.

Though it is interesting to note that he implies there are other Zeti he might consider replace them with while watching Sonic do one of his levels.

[RedFox99]

What also doesn't help is the rather limited amounts of time dedicated to the story present since Colors.

I would like to see IDW try to expand on the Six and maybe show their origins.

[Red Hot Jack]

I don't know if that's possible, due to Eggman explicitly saying "I don't care about them and their story", so they may be some of those characters under mandates that you can't explain their backstory, or maybe not. I mean, the official comic allowed to expand Infinite's backstory, so who knows...

Anyway, for me, my preferences about the "recent" villains:

Infinite > Zavok > Hard Boiled Heavies >>> the rest of the Zeti

(Feel free to disagree)

[DabigRG]

21 minutes ago, Jack of Tangles said:

I don't know if that's possible, due to Eggman explicitly saying "I don't care about them and their story", so they may be some of those characters under mandates that you can't explain their backstory, or maybe not.

When was this?

22 minutes ago, Jack of Tangles said:

 I mean, the official comic allowed to expand Infinite's backstory, so who knows...

 

Those were commissioned by SEGA themselves and had no connection to Archie or IDW. Plus, all it really did follow up on what was said in the DLC.

[Red Hot Jack]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

When was this?

Those were commissioned by SEGA themselves and had no connection to Archie or IDW. Plus, all it really did follow up on what was said in the DLC.

It was in Worlds Unite, where the Deadly Six appeared.

And no, it expanded Infinite's backstory, obviously his addiction to power is already in the game, but it shows more of the Jackal Squad, it actually shows his face, and there's his relationship with Eggman and how it begins, with the vision of their ideal future when they touch the Phantom Ruby, that's why he joins Eggman as a mercenary and then as a masked villain.

[Salamander]

It's interesting that there seems to have been some miscommunication about Infinite's face.  His appearance in the comic looks more like what you'd expect after he was attacked by Shadow, especially considering the in-game model for his unmasked self in the Episode Shadow flashback has no scar and both eyes coloured the same.  I assume there was a request for an "unmasked Infinite design" and some wires got crossed about the chronology.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, FFWF said:

It's interesting that there seems to have been some miscommunication about Infinite's face.  His appearance in the comic looks more like what you'd expect after he was attacked by Shadow, especially considering the in-game model for his unmasked self in the Episode Shadow flashback has no scar and both eyes coloured the same.  I assume there was a request for an "unmasked Infinite design" and some wires got crossed about the chronology.

Holy shit, you're right! I never really thought about that.

[Stelgard Maximus7]

Infinite, His EDGY,ANGRY,SCARY. NICE VILLIAN

[MetalSkulkBane]

3 hours ago, FFWF said:

It's interesting that there seems to have been some miscommunication about Infinite's face.  His appearance in the comic looks more like what you'd expect after he was attacked by Shadow, especially considering the in-game model for his unmasked self in the Episode Shadow flashback has no scar and both eyes coloured the same.  I assume there was a request for an "unmasked Infinite design" and some wires got crossed about the chronology.

OR his face was funny before Shadow kicked him and model isn't finished, which is partially why we never got a clear shot on his face.

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

OR his face was funny before Shadow kicked him .

 

8 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 model isn't finished, which is partially why we never got a clear shot on his face.

These points seem to contradict each other

[Splash the Otter]

15 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

These points seem to contradict each other

He means that maybe Infinite was supposed to have a scar and heterochromia in-game but those details were never added to his model.

[DabigRG]

47 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

He means that maybe Infinite was supposed to have a scar and heterochromia in-game but those details were never added to his model.

Well, obviously.

 

I was pointing out how Infinite's face was apparently "funny" before Shadow traumatized him.

[MetalSkulkBane]

26 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Well, obviously.

I was pointing out how Infinite's face was apparently "funny" before Shadow traumatized him.

 

I used to theorize that Shadow did something to his face. It makes a lot of sense
1 The physical scarf can cause insanity (in fiction that is. I have a scar on my forehead, but I don't plan to conquer the world...yet)
2 Not showing his face, means that Sega got away with really brutal scene based on our imagination alone
3 Shadow could potentially scare an enemy

The only problem is that Shadow just kicked him. Kinda hard to imagine that it was enough to do severe damage like that, especially considering how cartoony world this is (Sonic falling from space and surviving just fine). Besides, according to comic, Infinite was always a bit of a psycho.

Conclusion:......lack of conclusive thoughts ^^;. Just bunch of speculations.

[HylianBran]

I think Shadow (when he's doing bad) because he's just cool. Metal comes close.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, HylianBran said:

I think Shadow (when he's doing bad) because he's just school. Metal comes close.

"I'm the schoolest!"

[Cuz]

Say no more.

[Swing]

I really do not get what people see in Infinite. He is just a water downed version of Mephiles. And he was not even a good villain from begin with.