Who are the best villains in the franchise?

[Red Hot Jack]

2 hours ago, Swing said:

I really do not get what people see in Infinite. He is just a water downed version of Mephiles. And he was not even a good villain from begin with. 

Mephiles was okay in personality, but I did not like the design, just another Shadow, who is already supposed to be a Dark Sonic.

Infinite has a good design, a nice theme with the illusions, a taste for edgy lines (lol), as I said, he manages to see weakness and fear in his foes. And the theme song doesn't hurt as well. And he's a mobian, something people wanted to see from a Sonic villain, instead of monsters and demons or human girls that don't fit Sonic.

[DarkChaosGaming]

Eggman still has to be the best, although I prefer his personality/stories from the Deem Bristow era. Lately he's been a great character, but not a great villain. 

My other favorite is Mephiles (who still gives me this urge to yell CUSTOMER SERVICE!!! whenever he comes on screen)

[DabigRG]

@Dr. Mechano Where did Shadow fall in your standards?

[Red Hot Jack]

On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 11:40 PM, Jack the Maniac said:

1. Dr. Eggman

For  being eccentric, selfish, egocentric, a mastermind who always tries to come out on top. And also I don't mind his goofy side.

2. Shadow

For being a perfect opposite of Sonic, for his detailed backstory, I don't mind the sympathetic aspect if it's not overdone. There is a conflict and confusion inside of him.

3. Metal Sonic

For being a silente killer and badass, for trying to surpass Sonic to the point of obsession, he wants to become the real Sonic. He also has cool powers and a great design, which doesn't hurt.

4. Infinite

Has a gorgeous design and theme song, as it's been said he has some sort of charm in his sinister lines, and obviously he is a tyrant who wants to leave a mark in enemies, he sees their fear, but also his own, that's where comes his addiction to power, he wants to be stronger. He is no sympathetic villain, he is just pure evil. I also liked the theme of illusions.

5. Chaos

Despite not having much of a personality, he has a great backstory and he's a force of nature not to be messed with. 

6. Zavok

Another kind of mastermind, manipolative and a strategist, but also cruel and sadistic, at least he has a personality unlike the monsters of the week, although has a weak design and no backstory.

These are the villains I liked, the generic monsters didn't leave me much aside from Chaos. Black Doom and the Storybook villains don't fit Sonic IMO, they look like they came from other videogames.

Among the other media villains, I liked: Scourge, Eclipse, Dark Oak, the Egg Bosses, Enerjak, Finitevus, and Lien-Da.

Now that I've grown distant, detached and more impartial towards Forces, I can make an updated list:

1. Dr. Eggman - nothing is changed, he is a never give up villain who always wants to come out on top, a mastermind, a funny egocentric goofball but also menacing and with plans that are mind blowing, he's completely nuts in recent games.

2. Shadow - A tragic villain with a way too tragic backstory, but still a nice evil persona, he should have stayed a villain, remove Maria and he's a great antagonist. He manipulated Eggman to power up the Eclipse Cannon to do what he thought was right.

3. Metal Sonic - He's the Bass/Vegeta of the franchise, he is obsessed with beating Sonic and surpass him, designed to be superior to him in every way, he still doesn't seem to be able to do that, that's what makes him complex, even though he is mostly a silent killer, but it's okay to be just badass.

4. Chaos - This is where someone goes higher on the list, yeah there is not much personality, but he's really a force of nature, willing to protect his kind (the Chao) from mobians and evil, a creature that absorbs the Chaos Emeralds to become stronger is a nice idea too.

5. Infinite - Again, gorgeous design and theme song, I don't want him to be sympathetic or tragic, he isn't, he is wicked and addicted to power, so there is that, shame that his backstory is kinda crap but at least he has a past with Shadow, which is kinda cool, by the way, he lost so badly against him simply because he had no powers vs Shadow who is full of those. He has an interesting charm in his "dark" lines, the backstory in the comic is better, at least. Good villain, I think people like him, not classic fans obviously because of the whole "edginess", I think he is just an edgy wannabe, but that's not the strength of the character, which exists somewhere else.

6. Zavok - if we want to be cynical, he is just a Bowser without the interesting charisma, but I like his design more than Bowser's, it looks more menacing, a bit of a devil, and his personality does have good points, manipulative, calm strategist, with a taste for particular lines (again, lol).

7. Erazor Djinn - I think he had some charisma, his whole rivalry with Sonic was entertaining, great design too and awesome boss battles.

8. Merlina - we need more female villains desperately, and not the Zeena kind, she was unexpected, and thought she was doing the right thing for philosophical reasons (lol), but charming character overall.

9. Nack and the Hooligans - Underused so I can't judge them much, but they were great in the comics, a team of outcasts, mercenaries, with a variety of personalities, funny and different. Sadly they weren't very effective as villains.

10. The Deadly Six (as a whole) - Okay... I like Zavok, Zazz, plus Zor had some fun lines, and I do like the idea of a team of villains who care for each other, but they were veeeery flanderized, mono-dimensional and just stereotypes I guess. Sad because it was an interesting concept, I really wanted to like them, even the designs are too cartoony and I guess I have to say they just don't fit Sonic.

Out of the list are Eggman Nega, Mephiles, Void, King Arthur, those I didn't like basically. Overall I think Sonic has a decent rogue gallery, I didn't count Silver or the Babylon Rogues because they are more like rivals, or spin-off only characters, plus Silver is of good alignment, but the Babylon team is great in my opinion, especially Jet, Storm is kinda uninteresting, and Wave is simply a bully (you just can't make fun of Tails!), but together they are a nice team.

 

[Skull Leader]

Other than Dr. Eggman, I don't think that any of the other characters can stack up to his legacy nor can be considered to be "great villains".

Knuckles was tricked, and not shortly after his whole rival thing is thrown away in favor of selling him to the audience as "Sonic's other best friend"... Something that not only do I just don't buy, but also think of it as a waste of Knuckles' character as he could had been the Daffy Duck to Sonic's Bugs Bunny.

Shadow is reformed, and whatever extremist tendencies he might had in the past are hardly ever seen nowadays, with only his "ultimate lifeform" arrogance showing from time to time.

Mephiles is just a shit villain with a shit motivation and equally shit overcomplicated plan, that for some reason (which I'm willing to be has to do with looking like yet another hedgehog) kiddies still hold in such an undeserved high regard.

Metal is cool looking and has that awesome fight from the OVA... and that's about it. When you thinkmof ot, he's kind of like the Boba Fett of the Sonic franchise. : P

Merlina actually had a motivation that wasn't "hurr hurr, I'll blow the universe for the lolz", but her personality had nothing memorable going for.

Overall, the doc just set the bar too high for them, as not only is he the only bad guy that just does not quit on his goals, but also is the only one I can say that feels like a credible person... A ridiculous, eccentric, petty, selfish and charismatic person. In fact, feeling credible is the main aspect I go for when picking my favorite characters, along with how entertaining they can be as I enjoy being amused by the things they do.

The only one I think could give the doc a run for his money if it were to be reintroduced, and if his personality matched his extravagant looks, is Grand Battle Kukku XV

[E-122-Psi]

On 15 February 2018 at 11:07 AM, DarkChaosGaming said:

Eggman still has to be the best, although I prefer his personality/stories from the Deem Bristow era. Lately he's been a great character, but not a great villain. 

I dunno, if anything I think he acts as a better foil to Sonic in later games and medias. He was the one willing to call out Sonic's blunders in Lost World and then manipulated him into giving him back control. Even in Sonic Boom he knows ALL of the heroes' flaws and can play Sonic's own overconfidence onto him like a fiddle. I like these sort of dynamics as it makes their rivalry more personal. Plus you know, just playing on Knuckles' gullibility over and over got old after a while.

Maybe this was why I thought AoSth Robotnik was a more compelling villain than some of his more menacing versions, he was a buffoon, but he was often savvy to Sonic's antics and knew all his buttons to press to still be dangerous at times. This helps flesh out the villain AND the hero.

Others, well I like Orbot and Cubot, even if they're not particularly active bad guys most of the time, more there for banter with Eggman. I liked their dynamic in Boom when they were sometimes acted as a minder for Eggman, even spearheading Sonic to ruin some of his worst schemes before they backfired onto them.

The Deadly Six, Infinite, and Merlina were good BASES for villains, but as others have pointed, they feel a bit lacking.

The rest are kinda generic sci fi monsters with little in terms of expressiveness and personality. Even Chaos who is supposed to be sympathetic, mostly only has character through exposition. I feel like they're just there because the writers wanted some more inhuman and one dimensional vile enough for the players to enjoy decimating over Eggman, especially since they all have the same one-winged-angel deal at the end (even Merlina for that matter, which felt kinda unnecessary).

 

For other media villains, I suppose maybe the Lightning Bolt Society in Sonic Boom. I like those sorts of bad guys that are so ineffective they just get bewilderment or pity from the heroes from how badly they fail. I also liked how they actually had something of a subtle arc throughout the first season, getting individual introductions, grouping together and later teaming up with Eggman to become halfway threatening.

[BaronGrackle]

1 hour ago, Skull Leader said:

Knuckles was tricked, and not shortly after his whole rival thing is thrown away in favor of selling him to the audience as "Sonic's other best friend"... Something that not only do I just don't buy, but also think of it as a waste of Knuckles' character as he could had been the Daffy Duck to Sonic's Bugs Bunny.

Daffy Duck to his Bugs Bunny indeed. Or, for you Kingdom Hearts fans, the Riku to Sonic's Sora.

But not the "best friend" Riku. The late-game KH1 Riku who was destined to be the chosen one but, through some reason or another, was surpassed by a naturally gifted upstart.

That's the Knuckles of S3 - the Knuckles who existed before the Master Emerald did and who was obsessed with possessing the Chaos Emeralds himself because they were HIS to protect.

One of the great mysteries of my youth: after this screen, how long until Robotnik figured out how to separate Knuckles from those emeralds? Probably not long. If the Launch Base incident didn't wise that echidna up...

Edited May 16, 2018 by BaronGrackle

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Skull Leader said:

waste of Knuckles' character as he could had been the Daffy Duck to Sonic's Bugs Bunny.

That's...actually a damn striking way of looking at it.

1 hour ago, Skull Leader said:

The only one I think could give the doc a run for his money if it were to be reintroduced, and if his personality matched his extravagant looks, is Grand Battle Kukku XV

Yeah, the Archie continuities gave us a perfect taste of what he could be like nowadays.

Though that's arguably in part because he has some elements that were later incorporated into Eggman.

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

The Deadly Six, Infinite, and Merlina were good BASES for villains, but as others have pointed, they feel a bit lacking.

 

Agreed, though mind explaining Merlina?

4 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

But not the "best friend" Riku. The late-game KH1 Riku who was destined to be the chosen one but, through some reason or another, was surpassed by a naturally gifted upstart.

That kinda sounds more like Shadow, but I alluded to this in the IDW thread with @Sonic_Fan_J.

11 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

 

That's the Knuckles of S3 - the Knuckles who existed before the Master Emerald did and who was obsessed with possessing the Chaos Emeralds himself because they were HIS to protect.

Very true. Dang, it's amazing how much can be drawn outta characters like Knuckles and s[ubs]eries like Classic Sonic.

[E-122-Psi]

16 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Agreed, though mind explaining Merlina?

As in her more unique 'secretly evil' gimmick (but with the twist of still not being one-dimensionally evil when she IS revealed like most others of the archetype), her clashing with Sonic's ideals, and being a unique female villain that works exclusively from Eggman without ever needing him as a jobber or exposition.

All those are great attributes, but as others mentioned, her execution and overall personality felt kinda underplayed and....meh. She didn't really stick out until that reveal, and not in the intentional sort of way, if she didn't turn out to be a villain, she probably wouldn't have been memorable at all. Sharah from Secret Rings betraying Sonic in the end felt like a bigger gut punch due to having a chemistry with Sonic throughout, while Merlina was kinda overshadowed in any bond with Sonic for Caliburn.

Also I thought her final boss was lacking, turning her into another rather generic monster form.

[BaronGrackle]

26 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That kinda sounds more like Shadow, but I alluded to this in the IDW thread with @Sonic_Fan_J.

So, I see a spectrum that has "Destiny" at one end and "Free Will" at the other end. Knuckles would believe that the emeralds chose him; Shadow would believe that he chose the emeralds. If they were evil governments instead of people, then Genesis!Knuckles would be divine right monarchy while Dreamcast!Shadow would be fascism.

And of course, in this imaginary spectrum that has Knuckles at "Destiny" and Shadow at "Free Will", we might see Sonic as an omnipresence that somehow exists across the entire gamut. He's just that good. And none of his rivals can understand how.

[Skull Leader]

With the Deadly six, I think it's because they really don't do much other than being a bunch of one-dimentional troublemakers. Still, if I were to pick just one of them to develop, that would be Zor... you know, the emo looking one. XD

I'll admit though, this choice is mostly influenced by a comic Drawloverlala made some time ago in which this particularly zeeti targeted Amy because of him wanting to break her optimism and cheerful character by cursing her with immortality, so that she would outlive Sonic and spend the rest of eternity in misery. What if Amy were to pay him back by trying to bring some happiness into his life, which Zor seems to dislike? It's the kind of thing that could add layers to the characters as they confront their ideals and beliefs.

Regarding Merlina, like I said, she had a reason to do what she did since her goal was to keep the story going on and on, otherwise it would reach the end and with it, that of her world. The problem is that Merlina as a character really doesn't have something for the audience to come to care for her beyond the dilemma that she faces. It's kind of like Maria who only existed to give a motivation to Shadow through her death at the hands of GUN, but beyond that, there was hardly any actual character/personality, nor I as the audience had a reason to care since my point of view and that of Shadow were disconnected, and his perception of Maria and all the things that made him care for her are his alone and not shared with the audience.

In contrast, I feel more sorrow when Amy is left behind/ignored or Eggman is defeated since these are characters that not only I've known for a very long time, but see them do all kind of wacky things to get what they want, and no matter how well they do, they're always destined to fail. It's like when Wile E. Coyote, Silvester or Daffy loose against the "cooler" characters that enjoy a one-sided favorable situation that is played for laughs... and yet, despise it's silliness, it feels so much alike to some of the times when our efforts are not meet with success (either because of our fault, or situations out of our control). That very, very humane sentiment is something that can't be replicated through cheap, forced pathos like Bambi's mother getting shot or Simba's dad dying from being ran over by a stampede.

And that is just one aspect. There are still other things like how Eggman establishes his presence through being a show off, bombarding the players with his image everywhere, ranging from his logos, to robots that bear a resemblance to his persona, etc. Heck, I could say that compared to the other villains of the Sonic franchise, Eggman belongs to a whole different league of his own because of one thing that, as said in the movie Megamind, marks the difference between villains and supervillains: Presentation!

[Almar]

I'd say that Knuckles being Sonic's "Other Best Friend"  wasn't really a thing until about Heroes. He wasn't Sonic's enemy in Adventure One, but he didn't really come off as a friend either. Even after what happened in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Knuckles being so quick to get violent on Sonic after talking to Eggman suggests he still didn't think highly of the blue hedgehog.

[E-122-Psi]

I suppose it was probably in better judgement they shown Knuckles grow to trust Sonic somewhat, since his gullibility and constant eagerness to condemn Sonic at the drop of a hat ran the risk of being less a quirk and more just making him an untrusting douche (all cases villain plans run on condemning a hero have similar repercussions, see Sonic's so called friends falling for nearly every ploy against him in the comics).

Sonic X Knuckles I suppose was a better case of him growing warmer terms with Sonic but still keeping some of his personality and role, and vitriolic chemistry with him. Plus he still had the potential to get tricked by Eggman, just it gradually stemmed less from thinking Sonic was a bad guy after all and more thinking Eggman had the capacity to change and Sonic was too close minded to accept that.

[RedFox99]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

see Sonic's so called friends falling for nearly every ploy against him in the comics

Two cases I recalling about this was when he was framed for Sally's "murder" and when she didn't she believe about Anti-Antoine and locked him in a dungeon. 

[DabigRG]

11 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

As in her more unique 'secretly evil' gimmick (but with the twist of still not being one-dimensionally evil when she IS revealed like most others of the archetype), her clashing with Sonic's ideals, and being a unique female villain that works exclusively from Eggman without ever needing him as a jobber or exposition.

All those are great attributes, but as others mentioned, her execution and overall personality felt kinda underplayed and....meh. She didn't really stick out until that reveal, and not in the intentional sort of way, if she didn't turn out to be a villain, she probably wouldn't have been memorable at all. Sharah from Secret Rings betraying Sonic in the end felt like a bigger gut punch due to having a chemistry with Sonic throughout, while Merlina was kinda overshadowed in any bond with Sonic for Caliburn.

Also I thought her final boss was lacking, turning her into another rather generic monster form.

Okay, those are pretty good points.

And even then, I'm sure some could argue that some of that uniqueness is product of being female.

Look that Final Boss Theme, though.

11 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

So, I see a spectrum that has "Destiny" at one end and "Free Will" at the other end. Knuckles would believe that the emeralds chose him; Shadow would believe that he chose the emeralds. If they were evil governments instead of people, then Genesis!Knuckles would be divine right monarchy while Dreamcast!Shadow would be fascism.

And of course, in this imaginary spectrum that has Knuckles at "Destiny" and Shadow at "Free Will", we might see Sonic as an omnipresence that somehow exists across the entire gamut. He's just that good. And none of his rivals can understand how.

Dang! Getting symbolic up in here.

I almost wish there was something of a "I know who the real Ultimate is" scene for Knuckles, especially since, unlike Shadow, he doesn't seem to focus on that type of thing and is vitriolic buddies with Sonic now. 

10 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

With the Deadly six, I think it's because they really don't do much other than being a bunch of one-dimentional troublemakers. Still, if I were to pick just one of them to develop, that would be Zor... you know, the emo looking one. XD

I'll admit though, this choice is mostly influenced by a comic Drawloverlala made some time ago in which this particularly zeeti targeted Amy because of him wanting to break her optimism and cheerful character by cursing her with immortality, so that she would outlive Sonic and spend the rest of eternity in misery. What if Amy were to pay him back by trying to bring some happiness into his life, which Zor seems to dislike? It's the kind of thing that could add layers to the characters as they confront their ideals and beliefs.

 

I'd go as far as to say Zor is arguably the most "healthily defined" of the Six Zeti Clique. 

He's not as straightforwardly goofy as Zazz or Zomom or ultimately Zik, as sinister as Zavok or Zazz or on the surface Master Zik, or as shallow as Zeena or for the most Zomom--he's more of a weird mix/balance. He tends to mope around, sulk, and go on about how life will inevitably let people down and put them down--but he more or less admits that it's mostly a put-on. It's really just a way of annoying and being a passive-aggressive dick to others, since he does like making others miserable and if anything hates their joy and maybe even life itself, even straight up tossing the rose he was just acting concerned about when Sonic catches up to his Owl Mech. He has a disdain/faux-jealousy of Sonic's determination & (waning) upbeatness and was seemingly going after him again entirely of his own volition, which is apparently more ...apparent in the Japanese version. And according to his info card among others that released for the game(I don't know where), his dark powers are even a brand only he uses despite/because the other Zeti consider them forbidden. The fact that he's the youngest memeber makes all of this particularly freaky.

 

On your point, though, that does sound like an interesting and creative comic.

6 hours ago, Almar said:

I'd say that Knuckles being Sonic's "Other Best Friend"  wasn't really a thing until about Heroes. He wasn't Sonic's enemy in Adventure One, but he didn't really come off as a friend either. Even after what happened in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Knuckles being so quick to get violent on Sonic after talking to Eggman suggests he still didn't think highly of the blue hedgehog.

And even then, I think that notion is more one of convenient laziness than the actual intent at the time, since the cutscenes and maybe a few in-game lines has some flavor text about him tagging along in part because he didn't think Sonic had what it takes to stop the Egg Fleet and wanted to show him up.

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I suppose it was probably in better judgement they shown Knuckles grow to trust Sonic somewhat

Sonic X Knuckles I suppose was a better case of him growing warmer terms with Sonic but still keeping some of his personality and role, and vitriolic chemistry with him. Plus he still had the potential to get tricked by Eggman, just it gradually stemmed less from thinking Sonic was a bad guy after all and more thinking Eggman had the capacity to change and Sonic was too close minded to accept that.

Pretty much.

That is one thing I really enjoy about Sonic X and especially Archie.

Really, I'd say these issues come more from SEGA constantly thinking from a case by case basis with the exception of certain mandates(which even then, they occasionally allow flaking on)  and thus doing relatively little to string things together in the long term.

2 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

Two cases I recalling about this was when he was framed for Sally's "murder" and when she didn't she believe about Anti-Antoine and locked him in a dungeon. 

...What?

[RedFox99]

26 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Okay, those are pretty good points.

And even then, I'm sure some could argue that some of that uniqueness is product of being female.

Look that Final Boss Theme, though.

Dang! Getting symbolic up in here.

I almost wish there was something of a "I know who the real Ultimate is" scene for Knuckles, especially since, unlike Shadow, he doesn't seem to focus on that type of thing and is vitriolic buddies with Sonic now. 

I'd go as far as to say Zor is arguably the most "healthily defined" of the Six Zeti Clique. 

He's not as straightforwardly goofy as Zazz or Zomom or ultimately Zik, as sinister as Zavok or Zazz or on the surface Master Zik, or as shallow as Zeena or for the most Zomom--he's more of a weird mix/balance. He tends to mope around, sulk, and go on about how life will inevitably let people down and put them down--but he more or less admits that it's mostly a put-on. It's really just a way of annoying and being a passive-aggressive dick to others, since he does like making others miserable and if anything hates their joy and maybe even life itself, even straight up tossing the rose he was just acting concerned about when Sonic catches up to his Owl Mech. He has a disdain/faux-jealousy of Sonic's determination & (waning) upbeatness and was seemingly going after him again entirely of his own volition, which is apparently more ...apparent in the Japanese version. And according to his info card among others that released for the game(I don't know where), his dark powers are even a brand only he uses despite/because the other Zeti consider them forbidden. The fact that he's the youngest memeber makes all of this particularly freaky.

 

On your point, though, that does sound like an interesting and creative comic.

And even then, I think that notion is more one of convenient laziness than the actual intent at the time, since the cutscenes and maybe a few in-game lines has some flavor text about him tagging along in part because he didn't think Sonic had what it takes to stop the Egg Fleet and wanted to show him up.

Pretty much.

That is one thing I really enjoy about Sonic X and especially Archie.

Really, I'd say these issues come more from SEGA constantly thinking from a case by case basis with the exception of certain mandates(which even then, they occasionally allow flaking on)  and thus doing relatively little to string things together in the long term.

...What?

The former was after Endgame when Sally was injured from the fall and others believed that it was Sonic, while the latter was when Anti-Antoine disguised himself as Antoine and tried to marry Sally.

[Dash Speed]

12 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

Daffy Duck to his Bugs Bunny indeed. Or, for you Kingdom Hearts fans, the Riku to Sonic's Sora.

But not the "best friend" Riku. The late-game KH1 Riku who was destined to be the chosen one but, through some reason or another, was surpassed by a naturally gifted upstart.

That's the Knuckles of S3 - the Knuckles who existed before the Master Emerald did and who was obsessed with possessing the Chaos Emeralds himself because they were HIS to protect.

One of the great mysteries of my youth: after this screen, how long until Robotnik figured out how to separate Knuckles from those emeralds? Probably not long. If the Launch Base incident didn't wise that echidna up...

Meh, Shadow comes of better than knux in being the wielder of chaos mastery in that he always knows how to use them better and more potently than even Knuckles and Sonic does.

[DabigRG]

16 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

The former was after Endgame when Sally was injured from the fall and others believed that it was Sonic, while the latter was when Anti-Antoine disguised himself as Antoine and tried to marry Sally.

Oh, I remember Endgame, but the way it was written was a bit confusing.

Still, that dungeon thing sounds less like Sally and more like King Max.

[RedFox99]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh, I remember Endgame, but the way it was written was a bit confusing.

Still, that dungeon thing sounds less like Sally and more like King Max.

Sadly, she did after sonic crashed the wedding. 

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Sadly, she did after sonic crashed the wedding. 

Huh. It's been forever since I read the stories around that time and it wasn't for her.

[RedFox99]

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Huh. It's been forever since I read the stories around that time and it wasn't for her.

I think it was in the 140-150s issues 

[DabigRG]

23 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

I think it was in the 140-150s issues 

I know. I was referencing to Scourge's setup.

[BaronGrackle]

2 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Meh, Shadow comes of better than knux in being the wielder of chaos mastery in that he always knows how to use them better and more potently than even Knuckles and Sonic does.

This rationale is exactly what I mean, so we're not disagreeing. Triumph of the will! Might makes right!

[E-122-Psi]

You forgot the Mecha Madness arc when they think Sonic willingly got robotocized. Even before he's returned to normal their first reaction is that they should have him arrested for treason. Didn't they adapt the Pseudo Sonic plot from AoSth as well?

From what I heard STC Online have done a similar thing with everyone thinking Sonic's a bad guy due to a smear campaign (except sweet Tails, as with most of the Archie examples).

Ironically Sonic X's case, despite being especially idiot ball laden, was the most justified since nearly everyone was brainwashed to listen to Eggman. Everyone else was either Knuckles or really unwilling to doubt Sonic. Not to mention Sonic not really helping his case in that instance and seemingly being fine leading everyone on as punishment for being dumbasses about their planetary orbits.

Oh and Boom had a light one with the U.T. where Eggman tricks everyone into thinking they're insulting each other. That one was kinda funny.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

You forgot the Mecha Madness arc when they think Sonic willingly got robotocized. Even before he's returned to normal their first reaction is that they should have him arrested for treason. 

You know, I was gonna comment on the logic of reacting to Sonic being roboticized by declaring treason.

But now I'm just thinking of that unused cover. 

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Didn't they adapt the Pseudo Sonic plot from AoSth as well?

Yes, they did. Except Pseudo Sonic was an actual Badnik and somehow ended up being an underwater giant down the road.

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

From what I heard STC Online have done a similar thing with everyone thinking Sonic's a bad guy due to a smear campaign (except sweet Tails, as with most of the Archie examples).

Eh, I hear he sorta had it comin.

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Ironically Sonic X's case, despite being especially idiot ball laden, was the most justified since nearly everyone was brainwashed to listen to Eggman. Everyone else was either Knuckles or really unwilling to doubt Sonic. Not to mention Sonic not really helping his case in that instance and seemingly being fine leading everyone on as punishment for being dumbasses about their planetary orbits.

 

Funnily enough, I just watch Nicktendo's video about Sonic X with that episode.

I love how the distinction there are those who really unwilling to doubt Sonic and Knuckles.  Though from what I recall, he only fought Sonic because people asked him to when Sonic started destroying their power sources.