Sega is teasing a new Sonic something reveal for SXSW 2018

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Kinda unfair you take Sonic 06 as a perfect recreation of the Adventure games only on a vague general concept
"They both have hubs, they both have snowboarding, they both have story"

While Sonic 4 is taken to an extreme nerdy level of comparison.
It's the same game on a general vague conceptual level. 2d returns, classic style zones, focus on speedy platforming. Same general stuff.
But oh, the rolling physics aren't exactly the same. Oh. Ok. Diffrent game then.


But hey, Sonic 06 has story and snowboaring in it, so exact copy of Adventure.
The snowboard physics of 06 are utterly diffrent from Adventure's too. But that doesn't count.

Come on, Sonic 06 is just as much a distorted exagerated imitation of Adventure as Sonic 4 is for the Classics.
Sonic's interactions with Elise is as much as distortion of Shadow and Maria as using Homing attacks to create rhytm instead of pinball physics is.

Besides, I'm sure 80% of the people who played Classic Sonic noticed Sonic 4/ advance's physics problems. Well, before it was bludgened trough our skulls eventually. But not everyone is a hyper fan obsessing over minute details in physics.
I can't be the only one who thought the Advance games were perfectly fine follow ups to the Classic games without noticing the appearently gruesome crimes against the physics.
Sure, the Advance games weren't as epic as Sonic 3 and Knuckles, but otherwise did pretty mcuh what I expect from a classic game.
But nah, physics are 5 pixels off, so they're monstrous distortions of the classics.
I never noticed a problem with Sonic 4's physics either because I was playing it as a videogame, not a physics simulator test.
I did find the game boring, but that was more because of the generic level themes and the missing sense of adventure, not because Sonic rolls diffrently.

Also this "It has the same levels" logic makes no sense.
"Sonic 06 has an emerald coast, an ice cap zone, etcetera".
Who's saying sequels should have the exact same levels again?
In fact, it's usually when you get a lazy imitation game when they literally copy the same levels. Hence why Sonic 4 still fits as a comparison with Sonic 06, also blindly recycling level themes. And surprise, Sonic adventure 2 has none of Adventure 1's level themes. Unless we're going to be pedantic with "well, there's a city in both involved".

[superman43]

3 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Then I want SA4, and I want it to be good.

There are two "numbered" titles of games (and even movies) that most of the time are total fails. 4 and 6. Just saying.

[GentlemanX]

I hate it when we play this game with semantics.

People who say "give us Sonic Adventure 3" mean they want another game that resembles Sonic Adventure. I agree 06 is a Sonic Adventure game, though I argue it's the only one that can actually be described as that as Heroes, Shadow, and Unleashed all change core elements of the Sonic Adventure formula such as the emphasis on multiple play styles, perspective based story telling, and in Unleashed's case even Sonic's core gameplay. But 06 is everything minus the Chao Garden. There's no reason why it shouldn't count. It is Sonic Adventure 3. And even most fans of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 think it sucks.

What people don't probably care about it the name "Sonic Adventure 3", or at least I certainly don't. I don't give a flip what it's called. I want a game that plays like those titles and that's what I mean when I say I want "Sonic Adventure 3". They can call it "Sonic & Friends 3D" or something equally dumb and so long as it plays like a Sonic Adventure title I don't care.

Sonic 4 was a return to the classic formula. It wasn't a good one and got stuff like the physics wrong, but what it was trying to do was clear. Sonic Mania does the same thing, but does it successfully. This is literally what Adventure fans are asking for: that 06 sucked as SA3 and they want a new game that is actually good - or at least good if you like how Sonic Adventure games play.

In an age where New Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Odyssey, and Super Mario 3D World all show how you can satisfy multiple audiences by appealing to each of them on a case by case basis, I see no reason Sonic Mania, Sonic Adventure X, and Sonic Boost 3D can't all equally also co-exist. If Sega wants to focus on Boost games, let some other developer take a crack at the Adventure formula like Whitehead and the rest made Mania. And asking for another Adventure/Forces shouldn't mean a game like Utopia couldn't be made either. Lost World and Boom should show Sega and Sonic Team are still willing to experiment from time to time. Especially after Mania's success and how well received Utopia has been, there's even reason to try and invest in Utopia's team itself to realize such a concept.

There's no reason to keep dividing the fanbase into one unilateral view of Sonic, as if a franchise like this can only be portrayed in some specific and unchanging way. Or that everything has to be built on the same philosophy or groundwork as the initial entry in the franchise. Sega has never treated the Sonic property that way and I'm glad it's allowed so many versions of Sonic to exist over the years.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

3 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Kinda unfair you take Sonic 06 as a perfect recreation of the Adventure games only on a vague general concept
"They both have hubs, they both have snowboarding, they both have story"

While Sonic 4 is taken to an extreme nerdy level of comparison. 2d returns, classic style zones, focus on speedy platforming. Same general stuff.
But the rolling physics aren't exactly the same. Oh. Ok.

Yeah, and I'm sure 80% of the people who played Classic Sonic notice that stuff. Not everyone is a hyper fan obsessing over minute details in physics.
I can't be the only one who thought the Advance games were perfectly fine follow ups to the Classic games with nothing wrong with them.
Sure, they weren't as epic as Sonic 3 and Knuckles, but otherwise did pretty mcuh what I expect from a classic game.
But nah, physics are 5 pixels off, so they're monstrous distortions of the classics.

But hey, Sonic 06 has story and snowboaring in it, so exact copy of Adventure.
The snowboard physics of 06 are utterly diffrent from Adventure's too. But that doesn't count.

Sonic 06 is just as much a distorted exagerated imitation of Adventure as Sonic 4 is for the Classics.

The Advance games weren't as similar to the classic games as you think they were, which is why they're not held in as high regard.

They're definitely not bad games but in particular the level design philosophy was quite different (and a fundamental tenet of the classics), as well as general gameplay pacing. Don't get me wrong, the concept is similar but the style and execution are quite different which is why they feel like two different series. 

'06 was philosophically exactly in line with the Adventure games in every conceivable way except for the chao garden. The problem was that '06 had more glitches than the other two because of time constraints. That's really about it. In every other way one can legitimately call '06 SA3. You can't really say the same thing about the advance games.

And if Chao Garden is the only thing keeping fans waiting for SA3...well then, I think a lot of them need to realize they're probably never going to see the total package of game they want made. I'm willing to bet there will eventually be a game titled Sonic Adventure 3..... but even Sonic '06 will be closer to the Adventure games in spirit than an actual SA3 could hope to be at this point. In the same way that SEGA could not produce Mania until they outsourced, the same applies to a spiritual successor to SA3.

But even then, Mania was built upon a solid gameplay foundation that people know works. One cannot say the same thing about the adventure games. There may be ideas that can be extracted from them, but to have a game be titled SA3 and try to execute the same design philosophies that SA1&2 did (which was the point of Mania)....that won't ever happen and be successful. And at that point, why bother to title the game 'SA3'?

[Splash the Otter]

5 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

But even then, Mania was built upon a solid gameplay foundation that people know works. One cannot say the same thing about the adventure games. There may be ideas that can be extracted from them, but to have a game be titled SA3 and try to execute the same design philosophies that SA1&2 did (which was the point of Mania)....that won't ever happen and be successful. And at that point, why bother to title the game 'SA3'?

Would you mind explaining, in detail, exactly why another game in the spirit of SA1 can't be successful?

[superman43]

11 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

...asking for another Adventure/Forces shouldn't mean a game like Utopia couldn't be made either. Lost World and Boom should show Sega and Sonic Team are still willing to experiment from time to time. Especially after Mania's success and how well received Utopia has been, there's even reason to try and invest in Utopia's team itself to realize such a concept.

Not only Utopia, even games like Sonic 2 HD would do well. There are 2 things that won´t make it a success. 

a. SEGA won´t invest in those

b. (for S2HD) I appreciate that they made it exactly like original, but they should be a bit creative like Taxman and Stealth were with remakes of S1 and S2 (bonus parts of Marble, Spring Yard, Chemical Plant, Hill Top)

[Blue Blood]

I heard that there's going to be some sort of Sonic news at SXSW and it might be a new racing game.

[Jango]

1 hour ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Kinda unfair you take Sonic 06 as a perfect recreation of the Adventure games only on a vague general concept
"They both have hubs, they both have snowboarding, they both have story"

While Sonic 4 is taken to an extreme nerdy level of comparison.
It's the same game on a general vague conceptual level. 2d returns, classic style zones, focus on speedy platforming. Same general stuff.
But oh, the rolling physics aren't exactly the same. Oh. Ok. Diffrent game then.

It's not unfair, it's obvious. The only thing separating 06 from the other 2 Adventure games is the Chao Garden, which I'll argue it ONLY existed in the first place because it was the Dreamcast and they wanted to make use of the VMU.

I'm not gonna argue with you about the physics, because there's no discussion to be had. Yes, the rolling physics and momentum based gameplay is exactly what makes a Classic Sonic game. It is a different game, no sarcasm. Otherwise every other 2D platformer featuring an animal as a playable character would be Sonic, whatever how the physics behave.

[Meta77]

06 was meant to be an adventure type game/reboot but like with many ideas sega either has no confidence in big project games aka the 3d games or just literally toss everyone with the concepts at the start out the window upon production because  06 had the makings to be great, online features, dlc, items not used, rainbow gem, graphics that were actually decent, day night cycle, but upon release it was a shit storm from hell, hell the demo was better than the final game. Forces also they had more plans for it heck they may have even left classic out but they begin to doubt themselves / some of the team did not think it would work so we got a half ass game. And i so wanted it to be very good.

[Jango]

36 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Would you mind explaining, in detail, exactly why another game in the spirit of SA1 can't be successful?

Or you could mind explaining what is that spirit :V

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

44 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Would you mind explaining, in detail, exactly why another game in the spirit of SA1 can't be successful?

Because people don't want a genre roulette style of gameplay, especially one done so poorly as SA1 and even more so SA2? If there is anything that the adventure series is really known for, it is the genre roulette which cause the player to spend the majority of their gameplay time doing things that diverge wildly from Sonic's core gameplay....(and most often really blew chunks). Sonic Team knows they can't go back to that again.

Genre roulette was such a defining characteristic of the adventure games that, once you remove it, the games don't really have much that differentiates them from other modern sonic titles, outside of story emphasis.

I could also argue that emphasis on story is a bit of an issue (though not so much with SA1) but that can easily be fixed with better writers. 

If you just have a 3D sonic game with great consistent gameplay and a well written story (which is not what the adventure games are known for)....its not an adventure game, its something else. You can call it SA3 if you want at that point but it will be SA3 in name only. And, though my opinion counts for nothing here, I'd definitely be interested in a game like that as would I suspect several millions of other gamers. But would adventure fans be happy with a game that isn't too similar to SA1 or 2, but is a great game?  

[blueblur98]

Quote

I see no reason Sonic Mania, Sonic Adventure X, and Sonic Boost 3D can't all equally also co-exist.

this guy gets it.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

The Advance games weren't as similar to the classic games as you think they were, which is why they're not held in as high regard.

They're definitely not bad games but in particular the level design philosophy was quite different (and a fundamental tenet of the classics), as well as general gameplay pacing. Don't get me wrong, the concept is similar but the style and execution are quite different which is why they feel like two different series. 

'06 was philosophically exactly in line with the Adventure games in every conceivable way except for the chao garden. The problem was that '06 had more glitches than the other two because of time constraints. That's really about it. In every other way one can legitimately call '06 SA3. You can't really say the same thing about the advance games.

And if Chao Garden is the only thing keeping fans waiting for SA3...well then, I think a lot of them need to realize they're probably never going to see the total package of game they want made. I'm willing to bet there will eventually be a game titled Sonic Adventure 3..... but even Sonic '06 will be closer to the Adventure games in spirit than an actual SA3 could hope to be at this point. In the same way that SEGA could not produce Mania until they outsourced, the same applies to a spiritual successor to SA3.

But even then, Mania was built upon a solid gameplay foundation that people know works. One cannot say the same thing about the adventure games. There may be ideas that can be extracted from them, but to have a game be titled SA3 and try to execute the same design philosophies that SA1&2 did (which was the point of Mania)....that won't ever happen and be successful. And at that point, why bother to title the game 'SA3'?

Sonic Next Gen is a Sonic Adventure reboot is what I always say. Speaking of Adventure titles, would World Adventure be considered an Adventure game? I know it was called a "subset" of the Adventure games by someone in the Sonic Team during the interviews of that time..

[Splash the Otter]

37 minutes ago, Jango said:

Or you could mind explaining what is that spirit :V

Well for me it's a combination of the following:

• Fully 3d gameplay without any boosting. This should be self-explanatory.
• A good story that the writers put some actual thought into.
• A decent variety of characters to play as. Remember, characters =/= playstyles.

And this is just personal preference, but I think an Adventure-styled game should have:

• Hub areas that connect the levels and give the world some depth.
• The same urban fantasy setting as SA1 and the Classic era.

1 minute ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Because people don't want a genre roulette style of gameplay, especially one done so poorly as SA1 and even more so SA2? If there is anything that the adventure series is really known for, it is the genre roulette which cause the player to spend the majority of their gameplay time doing things that diverge wildly from Sonic's core gameplay....(and most often really blew chunks). Sonic Team knows they can't go back to that again.

Genre roulette was such a defining characteristic of the adventure games that, once you remove it, the games don't really have much that differentiates them from other modern sonic titles, outside of story emphasis.

I don't consider genre roulettes to be a necessary part of the Adventure spirit.

1 minute ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I could also argue that emphasis on story is a bit of an issue (though not so much with SA1) but that can easily be fixed with better writers. 

If you just have a 3D sonic game with great consistent gameplay and a well written story (which is not what the adventure games are known for)....its not an adventure game, its something else. You can call it SA3 if you want at that point but it will be SA3 in name only.

"It can't be an Adventure game if it's good." That's ridiculous. You're starting to sound like Reichskommissar back on the Sega Forums.

1 minute ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

And, though my opinion counts for nothing here, I'd definitely be interested in a game like that as would I suspect several millions of other gamers. But would adventure fans be happy with a game that isn't too similar to SA1 or 2, but is a great game?  

I'd be happy with it, provided it contained all the elements I listed in my reply to Jango.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

5 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Sonic Next Gen is a Sonic Adventure reboot is what I always say. Speaking of Adventure titles, would World Adventure be considered an Adventure game? I know it was called a "subset" of the Adventure games by someone in the Sonic Team during the interviews of that time..

Sonic World Adventure is an example of "In name only". It is much less similar to Sonic Adventures 1&2 than '06 is...though not to say that they have absolutely nothing in common. But World Adventure has far more in common with Colors and Generations than it does SA1/2.

 

[Splash the Otter]

18 minutes ago, SaberX said:

Are you really asking out of curiosity or just asking for the sake of asking and then disagreeing?

Honestly it's a little of both.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

35 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

I don't consider genre roulettes to be a necessary part of the Adventure spirit.

"It can't be an Adventure game if it's good." That's ridiculous. You're starting to sound like Reichskommissar back on the Sega Forums.

I'd be happy with it, provided it contained all the elements I listed in my reply to Jango.

Without getting into wishlists and all that (because we're suddenly far from my original point in this thread), I don't know how anyone could consider genre roulette to not be a part of the "adventure spirit". In the period between SA1 and '06, the games were so all over the place in direction that genre roulette is perhaps the only major element connecting the first to the second adventure. If not that, and perhaps a "darker" story as a central focus, why would anyone even bother asking for SA3 when so many games could have fit that bill already? 

If its just about the Sonic gameplay, that's an entirely different conversation because SEGA still has not figured that out yet.

Adventure fans ask for another adventure game with the premise that what those games had to offer was a solid foundation for a 3D sonic game. So, if a game is released that is fundamentally different than that foundation, you're correct that it would be meaningless to call it another adventure game. It has nothing to do with the game being good. It just so happens that one of the key elements an adventure game, the genre roulette, is something that held the series back and needed to be discarded. Once the game starts to diverge from the core things that appeal to adventure fans, what is the point in calling it Sonic Adventure 3? That was the point Jango made (if I interpreted it correctly).

If you repackaged a game like Sonic Generations with perhaps a darker story, added Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow as playable characters that play like Sonic and titled it Sonic Adventure 3....would that really be SA3? In name only..... And you wouldn't want that. But the elements you might want to return may be elements SEGA has moved on from. Which is why Iizuka said what he said. He knows what you want already but doesn't want to give it to you because he already knows there are an equal amount of gamers who won't tolerate that style of game. And in the case of the Sonic gameplay, Sonic was quite rough back then and badly needed to be fine tuned. SEGA has experimented with that style but has not yet found a solution, which is another reason you won't it see return until they do.

[Splash the Otter]

25 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Without getting into wishlists and all that (because we're suddenly far from my original point in this thread), I don't know how anyone could consider genre roulette to not be a part of the "adventure spirit". In the period between SA1 and '06, the games were so all over the place in direction that genre roulette is perhaps the only major element connecting the first to the second adventure. If not that, and perhaps a "darker" story as a central focus, why would anyone even bother asking for SA3 when so many games could have fit that bill already? 

If its just about the Sonic gameplay, that's an entirely different conversation because SEGA still has not figured that out yet.

Adventure fans ask for another adventure game with the premise that what those games had to offer was a solid foundation for a 3D sonic game. So, if a game is released that is fundamentally different than that foundation, you're correct that it would be meaningless to call it another adventure game. It has nothing to do with the game being good. It just so happens that one of the key elements an adventure game, the genre roulette, is something that held the series back and needed to be discarded. Once the game starts to diverge from the core things that appeal to adventure fans, what is the point in calling it Sonic Adventure 3? That was the point Jango made (if I interpreted it correctly).

If you repackaged a game like Sonic Generations with perhaps a darker story, added Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow as playable characters that play like Sonic and titled it Sonic Adventure 3....would that really be SA3? In name only..... And you wouldn't want that. But the elements you might want to return may be elements SEGA has moved on from. Which is why Iizuka said what he said. He knows what you want already but doesn't want to give it to you because he already knows there are an equal amount of gamers who won't tolerate that style of game. And in the case of the Sonic gameplay, Sonic was quite rough back then and badly needed to be fined tuned. SEGA has experimented with that style but has not yet found a solution, which is another reason you won't it return until they do.

But I can't take an eternity of boosting and 2d gameplay and Classic Sonic and Pontaff and all the SHIT we've been getting since 2010!

[Badnik Mechanic]

2 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

I heard that there's going to be some sort of Sonic news at SXSW and it might be a new racing game.

I hear it keeps getting leaked by toy companies.

[A person, that exists]

Eh, I see no reason for Sega NOT to make a Sonic Adventure 3.

Like, if Megaman can have multiple lines of games that each have a different tone and story, then why can't Sonic? 

Just... Don't give it to the main Sega crew. Just give it to some fans/some other company. 

Or, if Sega is so cowardly, then maybe they should try making a sequel to a different title with similar gameplay, like 06 or Shadow, except, you know, MAKE IT GOOD.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, A person, that exists said:

Like, if Megaman can have multiple lines of games that each have a different tone and story, then why can't Sonic?

Ah, yes, Megaman, a currently very healthy and prolific series.

[A person, that exists]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Ah, yes, Megaman, a currently very healthy and prolific series.

Well, Megaman died for a different reason. It wasn't because the games were bad, but rather because Imafune left or something.

[LongcrierCat]

That sarcasm had way too much bite to it, ouch. For what it's worth, Megaman had and still has a very dedicated fanbase who are hungry for more Megaman of multiple flavours. 

So their suggestion of Sonic sub series isn't actually a bad suggestion even if this would take a ton of work to do right that Sega doesn't seem to want to afford. 

[A person, that exists]

Just now, LongcrierCat said:

this would take a ton of work to do right that Sega doesn't seem to want to afford. 

Well, why make Sega develop the games? 

After all, even during Sonic's hay days companies like Dimps or Bioware developed the sub games. 

[LongcrierCat]

Dimps got replaced with Christian Whitehead, Headcanon, and Pagoda West in more recent years, to which I'm very grateful for even in the light of the Denuvo fiasco already causing a rift in their relationship to Sega (thanks very much, Sega /s). And Bioware was a very shortlived partnership much like their hiring of Big Red Button and Sanzaru Games will likely be (unless they're the new Dimps instead of Whitehead and Co) and lead to a hell of a legal battle that this fanbase doesn't like talking about for good reason. 

I wasn't suggesting Sega make the games as I was suggesting freelance devs and third party devs. But again, it's not something I see Sega affording anytime soon if the Sonic Boom side series was anything to go off on, though I blame a ton of that on Sega of Japan's own miscommunication and incompetence per the norm. One must wonder how confusingly that company is structured if the Sonic Movie's Van had anything of note to their communications with them. 

I think we're more likely to see more smartphone games if anything than actual decent sized side games, which is a shame. Mario and Megaman both have/had great side series and I'd love to see the same for Sonic. 

I mean, I'd like to see the new Sonic announcement be something really good. After Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces showing the great divide in quality at Sega it's a real pain to be so on the fence with a Sonic announcement coming up. Like, Sonic Team is a huge grabbag between being lowball mediocre to decent to passably good (though not good enough for everyone, if we'll be quite honest). And honestly, I don't see them getting any of their other third parties in to make a Sonic game unless it's Sumo Digital doing ASR 3 which is sounding like what we're getting.