Would the characters work better as one time appearances?

[EzSonic01]

2 hours ago, superman43 said:

After whining you actually said the reason.

And how my opinion on the matter ("whining" as you call it) has anything to do with what is being discussed here? I just stated that I don't think Knuckles should be left out. Period.

[StaticMania]

They don't have to be one-shot appearances, some of them just shouldn't appear as often as they do.

Tails as Sonic's best friend is allowed to appear as often as necessary.

Knuckles should be bound to Angel Island like intended, limiting his appearances...and having the rocky relationship one-sided rivalry that SEGA wanted him to have with Sonic as a result.

Amy isn't really bound to anything to not appear often, but if she isn't gonna be more than her crush on Sonic, screen time should be limited instead.

Basically this.

[ClassicKnuckles]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

What exactly would be the [in-universe] reasoning for them being one-shots, is what I was asking.

Robotnik realizes how annoying and useless they are and decides to scrap them? Or they get killed by Gamma or Metal Sonic?

[DabigRG]

3 minutes ago, ClassicKnuckles said:

Robotnik realizes how annoying and useless they are and decides to scrap them? 

That's where I thought you were going with that.

It'd at least make sense for SA-55(if he was a separate character from Orbot), while I suppose you could simply have Cubot be left behind in space as a failed replacement to the opposite extreme.

3 minutes ago, ClassicKnuckles said:

 Or they get killed by Gamma or Metal Sonic?

Gamma is dead(or according to one user, living with Cream for some reason) and Metal very seldom shows up outside of side games and throwbacks.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The characters will work better when you write them better.

Seriously, what is it about that bolded part do people just not get and somehow think “let’s nuke the size of the cast” would work (especially when thay was already done and not a damn thing got better, if not arguably worse)? It’s not about how often they appear or not—Infinite and the D6 have only appeared once (I’m not counting Zavok in Forces) and they’re not considered good characters than they are divisive, and you’d think that would have made this clear that the number of appearances means jackshit.

[StaticMania]

Writing them better is only the necessary step. Some of them still shouldn't appear as often as they do, it allows for cool down and stops needless appearances in stories they don't add anything to.

[Swing]

8 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

I find it funny how Mario's extended cast appears more often, is slowly being incorporated into his main series, and is becoming known for resurrecting obscurer characters from its history - and yet Sonic's cast's lifespan is routinely questioned.

Like people already said, most of the characters were written specifically for this story. And if their stories were told, their is no real use for them anymore. Shadow's story ended with SA2, Blaze's story ended with Sonic Rush, Silver's story ended with 06. I also think the reason, why the Mario cast works so well, is, because non of the characters were written to take the spotlight away from Mario. All of them are side characters who have a different role and a different relationship towards Mario. Luigi is his brother of Mario, Peach is his girlfriend, Pauline is his ex-girlfriend, Bowser is his arch-enemy, Wario is an evil rival, DK is a friendly rival, Yoshi is his... pet I guess and Toad is the exposition character of the games. Most of Sonic's friends have just a way to similar role. All of them, Knuckles, Shadow, Blaze, Silver and Jet started out as rivals and than became good guys at the end after you beat them. Same goes also for Rouge, Wave, Storm and Omega to some extent. Because of the similarities to each other and because how their were written, as the main stars of their own debut game, their is just no real purpose for them anymore. 

[superman43]

6 hours ago, FairPlay said:

And how my opinion on the matter ("whining" as you call it) has anything to do with what is being discussed here? I just stated that I don't think Knuckles should be left out. Period.

It was written in the style of... "Why everyone hates Knuckles ?"... like, you have to admit, that no one directly said that they hate Knuckles being in the games like Sonic Heroes, 06 and after that. Everyone is just saying what you asked afterwards. That he isn´t really relevant, because he was primarily designed as a protector of Master Emerald and, the ST just pointlessly ignored that. That´s why his role in those games is "hated", despite there being no hatred against the character itself.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

18 hours ago, Swing said:

Same goes with Blaze. A lot of us remember her more as the cool heroine from another dimension and not as the very silent sidekick of Silver.

I'm pretty sure I never remembered her becoming that outside of Sonic 06... ya know just the 1 game? ... after the 2 re-meet in the current timeline Silver and Blaze are no more then casual friends now.

Going back to the overall topic at hand. Honestly I have to be honest and say that I HATE when folk seriously suggest the Sonic series cast should be limited to just Sonic, Eggman & Tails as the main core recurring cast with everybody else being gotten rid of altogether. Holy mew! I'm super sick of seeing anybody thinking that is a good idea. I am already dead tired and angry at the fact SEGA themselves made Sonic steal most of the spotlight from the rest of the cast in the games nowadays and refuse to use any of their other cool characters for anything more then bloody worthless cheerleaders & cameos lately. For realz the characters are not the rotten problem! The problem is that Sonic Team and whoever else works on the story & character concepts for the series refuses to truly care about how to handle the characters & stories. I've been mad at the series for awhile now for it only giving Sonic & Eggman any real love with few exceptions... This is NOT the series I want to play anymore in it's current state especially if it gets any worse with it's poor use of the extended cast. We don't need a ton of pointless redundant new characters all the time, we need Sonic Team to actually figure out how to more often make better use of the characters they already have.

On another note. Blaze is among the best Sonic characters with so much more that could be done with her if we were allow to explore more of her dimension... great spin off series potential, and Sonic himself wouldn't even need to be a part of it for it to work. Even a point and click adventure game staring the Chaotix has good potential too. If SEGA actually tried and put the right level of effort into the extended Sonic cast then we could see amazing things. Maybe it'll never happen. But getting rid of almost everybody is no good and helps nothing.

[Eurisko]

Silver. I can understand his appearance in generations but he should never have turned up in Forces.

[LividOrca]

I agree that character returns should be limited, and treated as an event when they do happen. My personal ideal is that the core cast would be limited to Sonic, Tails, Amy and Eggman, with more of a focus on new characters and the occasional guest like Knuckles, or the Chaotix, or Metal Sonic, in stories centered around those characters. Kinda like how Yoshi only shows up in every other 3D Mario game.

Or, another example: I've been watching a lot of Lupin III lately, so basically like that. I think Sonic should always be traveling to new places and meeting new people, and that being tethered to fan-favorite characters is counter-productive to that goal. Also if you think about it, isn't this just another way of pandering to people's nostalgia?

[ClassicKnuckles]

9 hours ago, DabigRG said:

That's where I thought you were going with that.

It'd at least make sense for SA-55(if he was a separate character from Orbot), while I suppose you could simply have Cubot be left behind in space as a failed replacement to the opposite extreme.

Gamma is dead(or according to one user, living with Cream for some reason) and Metal very seldom shows up outside of side games and throwbacks.

I meant Omega.

I have a special kind of hatred for them.

[Swing]

3 hours ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

On another note. Blaze is among the best Sonic characters with so much more that could be done with her if we were allow to explore more of her dimension... great spin off series potential, and Sonic himself wouldn't even need to be a part of it for it to work. Even a point and click adventure game staring the Chaotix has good potential too. If SEGA actually tried and put the right level of effort into the extended Sonic cast then we could see amazing things. Maybe it'll never happen. But getting rid of almost everybody is no good and helps nothing.

You know, this is actually a major problem when it comes to Sonic. Not everyone can be the star, the main character, the hero. A story really needs to have one character, that is the center of your writing. You can not write a bunch of characters, which all of them have the qualities of a hero/heroine and an their own backstory and world and try to push them in to one single narrative. That can not work well. Sonic should be the main star. The series is named after him. 

And sure, we can actually give Blaze or Shadow, or Knuckles their own games, but is this really necessary? I mean Nintendo themselves do not give every character that is popular their own its own spinoff. King Dedede, Princess Zelda, Dixie Kong even something like Koffing are way more popular characters and they didn't get their own games. Also, if Sonic himself, Sega's mascot, has so much trouble nowadays, how big of the chance do one of his friends have?  

[Lord-Dreamerz]

51 minutes ago, Swing said:

You know, this is actually a major problem when it comes to Sonic. Not everyone can be the star, the main character, the hero. A story really needs to have one character, that is the center of your writing. You can not write a bunch of characters, which all of them have the qualities of a hero/heroine and an their own backstory and world and try to push them in to one single narrative. That can not work well. Sonic should be the main star. The series is named after him. 

And sure, we can actually give Blaze or Shadow, Or Knuckles their own games, but is this really necessary? I mean Nintendo themselves do not give every character that they own its own spinoff. King Dedede, Princess Zelda, Dixie Kong even something like Koffing are way more popular characters and they didn't get their own games. Also, if Sonic himself, Sega's mascot, has so much trouble nowadays, how big of the chance do one of his friends have?  

Sure, not every character needs their own game. But certainly some characters are very suited to it and could be made into something amazing. And you viewing the idea of there being more then 1 star in a series as a problem is not a fact. There is nothing wrong with Sonic sharing the spotlight with another star sometimes. Because it opens up a whole new world of fun possibilities. You know what's lame and boring? A LONG running series that has 1 focused on playable character with everybody else being side cast at best... add to the fact SEGA doesn't want Sonic to be a deep character and you are left with nothing new or interesting to explore when it comes to his character. Just like DC comics or whatever, Sonic series should be able to evolve beyond just Sonic himself.

Sonic is NOT my favorite Sonic character, and I'm tired of only being given him as a option when I see so many other Sonic characters I want to play as. And No I don't agree with the idea Nintendo does everything right when it comes to their characters. You know why I don't buy Mario games? because I don't want to play as Mario himself period. Only Mario game I got in ages was Super Mario 3D World... because Peach was playable on it! And Zelda herself could make for a great main character if done right... hell isn't the series named after her anyways?! Sonic friends so to speak have just as much of a chance at a good game that he has. People won't avoid a game because Sonic isn't the star, they will avoid it simply if it's a bad game... And we all know by now Sonic going solo doesn't promise a good game by itself.

Another thing, Instead of turning 1 character like Sonic into a jack of all trades which deludes his character. Having other playable characters easily allows new/different gameplay and other interesting stuff that you can associate them with... which is a lot better way to go about it then doing stuff such as giving Sonic the Wisps to replace all his friends powers and taking away Sonic's identity in the process.

[knuckles20]

5 hours ago, Swing said:

You know, this is actually a major problem when it comes to Sonic. Not everyone can be the star, the main character, the hero. A story really needs to have one character, that is the center of your writing. You can not write a bunch of characters, which all of them have the qualities of a hero/heroine and an their own backstory and world and try to push them in to one single narrative. That can not work well. Sonic should be the main star. The series is named after him. 

Just because the series the named after Sonic does not make it ok to be only about him nor should I not care about anyone else. The small cast is why the games has gone stale to the point the games aren't worth buying.

Stagnation is gonna be the true death of Sonic. 

[Swing]

It really seems that the driving force from Sonic is really not the gameplay but the characters. But, guys, if this means so much to you, why not stick to the comics instead? Or read some fan-fictions on the internet? 

I mean, if you care more about that, why even buy the games in the first place?

Anyway, sure, you guys are right. Any character in the end can be good if their handled correctly. If the execution done correctly, any character or story can be good, no matter what the premise is. Look at Kung Fu Panda and the first Lego movie as an example. Who thought how emotional those movies could be. Sure, Blaze could actually get her own spinoff, same also with Shadow and Knuckles.... but.... I sadly see another problem with that.

Their are all just way to similar to Sonic in terms of gameplay and role. Almost all of Sonic's friends are action heroes like him that run really fast. Sure their have one or two special abilities but in the end their are more or less the same. The reason why Yoshi and DK work so well as the stars of their own spinoff is because they are very different characters in terms of design, abilities and personality compare to Mario. One if a small Italian guy, one is giant gorilla and the other one is a dinosaur like creature. You can work with them better, because they separate them more from Mario. 

With Sonic on the other hand it is not really that easy. All of Sonic friends are just way to close to him in... well, actually in everything. I can not see any one who could work with those types  of characters. The story, writing, music, level design, enemy design, art style won't be anything new. Their for, why just create a Sonic like gameplay for a character like Blaze or Espio, if you already have Sonic for this?

[knuckles20]

On 2/2/2018 at 11:13 AM, Swing said:

It really seems that the driving force from Sonic is really not the gameplay but the characters. But, guys, if this means so much to you, why not stick to the comics instead? Or read some fan-fictions on the internet? 

I mean, if you care more about that, why even buy the games in the first place?

Because I got into the games because of the characters and lore. With that gone I have no reason to care for the games. You're acting like it's impossible to have entertaining characters and good gameplay. Stop acting like it has to be one or the other.  I still want to play as other characters and while I'm more invested in the comics it's not the same as interacting with the extended cast in the games.

Quote

With Sonic on the other hand it is not really that easy. All of Sonic friends are just way to close to him in... well, actually in everything. I can not see any one who could work with those types  of characters. The story, writing, music, level design, enemy design, art style won't be anything new. Their for, why just create a Sonic like gameplay for a character like Blaze or Espio, if you already have Sonic for this?

 

If you can't see anyone who could work with those characters then I gotta ask: Do you truly care? If the only way Sonic can be good is to not try with plot or characters and the games can only work with just Sonic and Eggman why even bother making new games and just rerelease Sonic 1 every year.

[MrKnifeGod]

You might as well ask this question towards the Dragon Ball super cast. All of Goku's friends are pretty much useless if they're not Super Saiyan gods. Why are they still around? They're practically cheerleaders as well.

[Swing]

8 minutes ago, MrKnifeGod said:

You might as well ask this question towards the Dragon Ball super cast. All of Goku's friends are pretty much useless if they're not Super Saiyan gods. Why are they still around? They're practically cheerleaders as well.

Well, since Sonic copies so much from DB they did also this as well. 

[MrKnifeGod]

4 minutes ago, Swing said:

Well, since Sonic copies so much from DB they did also this as well. 

Well not Sonic, but  Naoto Ohshima, Hirokazu Yasuhara, and Yuji Naka did. And because they were big fans of dragon ball, some of the things in Sonic are inspired by it.

But SSJ and Super are vastly different.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

4 hours ago, Swing said:

It really seems that the driving force from Sonic is really not the gameplay but the characters. But, guys, if this means so much to you, why not stick to the comics instead? Or read some fan-fictions on the internet? 

I mean, if you care more about that, why even buy the games in the first place?

Because interacting with your fave characters is far more fun then simply watching/reading them. I like the best of both worlds.

4 hours ago, Swing said:

Their are all just way to similar to Sonic in terms of gameplay and role. Almost all of Sonic's friends are action heroes like him that run really fast. Sure their have one or two special abilities but in the end their are more or less the same. The reason why Yoshi and DK work so well as the stars of their own spinoff is because they are very different characters in terms of design, abilities and personality compare to Mario. One if a small Italian guy, one is giant gorilla and the other one is a dinosaur like creature. You can work with them better, because they separate them more from Mario. 

With Sonic on the other hand it is not really that easy. All of Sonic friends are just way to close to him in... well, actually in everything. I can not see any one who could work with those types  of characters. The story, writing, music, level design, enemy design, art style won't be anything new. Their for, why just create a Sonic like gameplay for a character like Blaze or Espio, if you already have Sonic for this?

The problem is you are only looking at these characters gameplay possibilities from what you seen in the past and not what they could do new with them. Just like how Sonic's gameplay changes after every few titles often, so can different gameplay be given to other characters. Look at the Chaotix as I said before as a example. You could give them a point and click adventure detective game "One of my fave game types." .... Or another idea Eggman could be given a tower defense game where you build robots and machines to protect your evil bases against other enemies. Blaze's fire powers could be expended upon in gameplay concept, maybe keep her with the boost gameplay and do something else besides the boost gameplay with Sonic in the main series,  and Blaze's game could be marketed as the female counterpart to the main Sonic series maybe for people like me who prefer female characters normally. Hell if they wanted to they could flat-out make a fishing game with Big The Cat!

[EzSonic01]

11 hours ago, superman43 said:

It was written in the style of... "Why everyone hates Knuckles ?"... like, you have to admit, that no one directly said that they hate Knuckles being in the games like Sonic Heroes, 06 and after that. Everyone is just saying what you asked afterwards. That he isn´t really relevant, because he was primarily designed as a protector of Master Emerald and, the ST just pointlessly ignored that. That´s why his role in those games is "hated", despite there being no hatred against the character itself.

Good point.